Please reban kokusho..

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Title pretty much explains it. It was stated he was unbanned due to there being enough graveyard hate now to deal with him. But seriously.. I lose to kokusho, the evening star nearly every game i play these days. Anyone else believe it needs to go?
Title pretty much explains it. It was stated he was unbanned due to there being enough graveyard hate now to deal with him. But seriously.. I lose to kokusho, the evening star nearly every game i play these days. Anyone else believe it needs to go?


I take it you had a recent game in which he was repeatedly abused.  I'm actually not sure why they brought him back.  With few exceptions, the cards that enabled him are still around. 

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

Title pretty much explains it. It was stated he was unbanned due to there being enough graveyard hate now to deal with him. But seriously.. I lose to kokusho, the evening star nearly every game i play these days. Anyone else believe it needs to go?


I take it you had a recent game in which he was repeatedly abused.  I'm actually not sure why they brought him back.  With few exceptions, the cards that enabled him are still around. 



It's not even a recent game honestly. It's just that it happens way too often. If you're playing any sort of recursion then he is considered an auto-include. Then when a player is tutoring they'll immediately fetch up kokusho because they know it'll end up winning them the game in the end. It's just stupid.
To be fair though, the RC is right that there is much more graveyard hate than there was before his ban.  In just the last three blocks:

Nihil Spellbomb
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
Dryad Militant
Rakdos Charm

While I agree with you, there are still a lot of players who have yet to recognize the value of graveyard hate.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

To be fair though, the RC is right that there is much more graveyard hate than there was before his ban.  In just the last three blocks:

Nihil Spellbomb
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
Dryad Militant
Rakdos Charm

While I agree with you, there are still a lot of players who have yet to recognize the value of graveyard hate.


I've found people just find it hard to include situational cards in the format. As often as graveyard hate is necessary there are times when it is considered a dead draw. 
In my playgroup everyone thought he was going to be crazy amazing. Reality is that he got cut from almost every deck in my entire group because Exsanguinate is all you need to win. And Kokusho is a repeated mana investment while all you need is a Boseiju, who shelters all and [c]Exsanguinate to win. My playgroup (a group that doesn't run much graveyard hate or artifact/enchantment hate) couldn't care less about Kokusho. We're more tired of every game ending to these following cards:
Exsanguinate
Tooth and Nail
Genesis Wave
Time Stretch (or just infinite turns)

Kokusho would be a welcomed change if he would make the cut. It'd be nice if red and white could win a game for once...
To be fair though, the RC is right that there is much more graveyard hate than there was before his ban.  In just the last three blocks:

Nihil Spellbomb
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
Dryad Militant
Rakdos Charm

While I agree with you, there are still a lot of players who have yet to recognize the value of graveyard hate.


Phyrexian Furnace
Scrabbling Claws
Steamclaw
Tormod's Crypt
Ebony Charm
Fade from Memory
Headstone
Rapid Decay etc...

all cards at the time of Koko...
And not long after we had Moratorium Stone, Shred Memory in Ravnica.

I don't think Graveyard hate was the problem.



3DH4LIF3

I think he was included in the ban win Recurring Nightmare. He shouldn't win every game. If he is, then your group is letting him. Everyone has the ability to modify their deck to work well within their own environment. But, far too many times I see someone unwilling to change their deck for some flavor/pride/budget issue. There's always plenty of answers in each of these situations...people are either just lazy or angry.
Re-banning Kokusho would not help to make people not use sound tactics.

I don't like any slightly tweeked version of a Norin the Wary deck, as it gets old quick not being able to play a somewhat stable game. It is an effective deck, but playing it almost every game makes the game less fun when you realize you don't get to play your own deck right. So, I talked to the player in my group that ran it every game, got him to play it less often (I do appreciate the challenge of playing it, just not every game....) and also tweaked most of my decks by adding Homeward Path and other situational resolution cards. The group made changes for everyone's benefit, and I made changes for my own, and we moved on.

That's how you deal with a tough card in your meta: discuss it and make changes as appropriate. Most players just want to enjoy the game and play the game, so maybe you can see Kokusho less often or put a Tormod's Crypt in your deck. If you play in a non-stable meta (with strangers at random shops, etc) then really the onus is upon you to make your deck better able to handle such things, and expect it more often if it is your biggest, most common problem in games.
If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I still believe I'm right. Think of it as religion. dubito ergo sum.
I'm not saying my deck isnt prepared to handle it. There are other issues i just find with it. Im not complaining about losing to it all the time per say. I'm just saying everyone is including it in their decks and abusing his abilities. The only thing i dont like so much about edh is that there's always staple cards included in every deck. Since the unbanning of kokusho he has become one of these cards. I just dont feel there was a good reason for him to be unbanned.
Title pretty much explains it. It was stated he was unbanned due to there being enough graveyard hate now to deal with him. But seriously.. I lose to kokusho, the evening star nearly every game i play these days. Anyone else believe it needs to go?


I take it you had a recent game in which he was repeatedly abused.  I'm actually not sure why they brought him back.  With few exceptions, the cards that enabled him are still around. 



It's not even a recent game honestly. It's just that it happens way too often. If you're playing any sort of recursion then he is considered an auto-include. Then when a player is tutoring they'll immediately fetch up kokusho because they know it'll end up winning them the game in the end. It's just stupid.




Must ammend my Lazav deck to include him....thanks for reminding me.

in all seriousness, my group was happy he was unbanned, but no one has used him or abused him. it really all depends on the deck I guess.  
A group I play in was surprised he was unbanned.  I am disappointed he was. 
I'm not saying my deck isnt prepared to handle it. There are other issues i just find with it. Im not complaining about losing to it all the time per say. I'm just saying everyone is including it in their decks and abusing his abilities. The only thing i dont like so much about edh is that there's always staple cards included in every deck. Since the unbanning of kokusho he has become one of these cards. I just dont feel there was a good reason for him to be unbanned.

Play Meddling Mage? The reason he was unbanned is that he cant be recurred any easier than any other creature. There are tons of creatures that suck to get recurred.


If anyone actually feels  GY hate is a dead card, your meta is very interesting.  

GY hate, often but not always, needs instant speed removal to be really effective.  Nihil, Relic and Tomb all work in two ways, one that you're preventing someone from doing shenanigans with graveyard and the other is removal.

My 'meta' plays gy hate and we're scared of Kokopuff. 
I think he was included in the ban win Recurring Nightmare. He shouldn't win every game. If he is, then your group is letting him. Everyone has the ability to modify their deck to work well within their own environment. But, far too many times I see someone unwilling to change their deck for some flavor/pride/budget issue. There's always plenty of answers in each of these situations...people are either just lazy or angry.



If your more worried about what your opponents are doing rather than what your deck is supposed to be doing, congrats you're playing competitively.
Generally it's considered a strengh of EDH that it's a casual format where you can do crazy things though...
I think he was included in the ban win Recurring Nightmare. He shouldn't win every game. If he is, then your group is letting him. Everyone has the ability to modify their deck to work well within their own environment. But, far too many times I see someone unwilling to change their deck for some flavor/pride/budget issue. There's always plenty of answers in each of these situations...people are either just lazy or angry.



If your more worried about what your opponents are doing rather than what your deck is supposed to be doing, congrats you're playing competitively.
Generally it's considered a strengh of EDH that it's a casual format where you can do crazy things though...




Or you've learned to play magic. Understanding that magic is a two player game that's living and breathing is what separates players who've played for awhile versus players that haven't. Or if you're not concerned with what your opponent plays you're playing combo...
Exactly... combo don't give a flying fat baby's butt what other people are doing.

3DH4LIF3

My 'meta' plays gy hate and we're scared of Kokopuff. 


Why? If he hits for 15 (4 players) you now have an archenemy game and he gets exiled. Seems like not that good
Unless it's combo...
Koko provides a powerful win-con for recursion decks that get their engines going. And he's one of very few actual good life-gain cards in the format.

But like...he's not game-breaking. You'd lose just as hard if they were locking you down with yosei every turn. Or destroying your manabase with terastodon. Or running you over with hundreds of avenger of zendikar plant tokens.

Just playing him, having him die somehow, and draining everyone for 5 really isn't that good....you have to be flipping him in and out of the yard repeatedly (or pairing with rite of replication) to really have things get out of hand. And at that point...it's kinda like "well the recursion deck went nuts recurring something strong, guess it wins this one". I don't think you can blame the dragon.
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