the impossible Orzhov?

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Let's be clear: i'm a newbie
I like Orzhov, alot. I've read a bunch of thread and tried to figure out how to make this guild based deck work. Reading post i've seen different playstiles, and now i'm comfused on this guild. I've understood the hype over Blood Artist but sincerely, i don't like it.Is it possible to make a deck based on the actual mechanic of this guild without life leeching by deaths? Is it obligatory to use a card of the past block to make a decent deck? Do all new Orzhov deck NEED that card? I hope not. So that's what i'm working about. A control (?) extort deck with lifelink enchants on few beafy creatures and removal all the way.




2x Smite
2X Orzhov Charm
3x Blind Obedience
3x Ultimate Price
4x Murder
2x Gift of Orzhova

4x Godless Shrine
4x Orzhov Guilgate
8x Swamp
8x Plains

Extort is a WONDERFUL mechanic.  Most of the bodies that HAVE extort, are not.


Vault of the Archangel, run 2 of these.
you WILL need 4x Isolated Chapel for better manafixing AND because Gates ALWAYS must come in tapped.

Sindic of Tithes, Basillica Screecher are just bad bodies....  They're sooo squishy and aren't reliable damage.  If you absolutely must have a flying extort,  run the kingpin. He's worth the extra 1 mana. As for the 'beefy creatures' portion you mentioned... you have no beef.  You have Alms Beast but he is more of a burden than a boon.  Swap him out for Desecration Demon. he out classes the alms beast by far.

Thrull Parasite is much better than Dutiful Thrull,  1. Because he has Extort, 2. Because he can remove counters. (any kind, including +1/+1 counters, -1/-1,  Loyalty counters on planeswalkers, or even miscillaneous counters on enchants and other creatures.) You could also combo Thrull parasite in with Undying creatures to keep them immortal by removing their counter when they return to the field. Geralf's Messenger, Undying Evil, Makeus, the Unhallowed. etc.  (I dont personally run my parasites for undying combos though)

I don't see any forms of control here. At all, I see removal, but that is it. You could easily run Arrest, Pacifism, Martial law, Oblivion Ring, Fiend Hunter, Stab Wound and a few others.

Palaside Giant (in combo with some enchantments to make it beefy, to be an unkillable wall so you can continue extorting, though I don't truly recommend using the Giant.)

Also, with those crypt ghasts you have soooo much available mana... but nothing to really spend it on!  Why not throw in stuff like..  Griselbrand, Bloodgift Demon, Harvester of Souls, Lord of the Void, Sepulchral Primordial, so you can have some beef?!  
You could also combo in with spells like Shadow slice, Essence Harvest (personally one of my absolute favorite cards), Killing Wave.

Perhaps even throw in some Shades? All that excess mana you can really pump your shades up!  Evernight Shade (this one can combo well with Thrull Parasite too!),  Gateway Shade (since you want to run gates). 

OH!!! Also for control, you could EASILY throw in Vampire Nighthawk HE is just simply amazing.  That's all I really need to say. (combo with Ethereal Armor  and they will be murdered.  First strike, + lifelink, +Deathtouch?! GG. Not to mentoin he gets at least +1/1 (and then more for all of your other enchants!).  You could also run Sphere of Safety!

There are a TON of useful angels and life gain that you can get from white.  HELL you could even throw Chalice of Life as well!

My orzhov deck, however is going to run heavy Spirits because Lingering Souls is still an amazing card. Obzedat, Ghost Council, Crypt Ghast are also spirits..  I run Niblis of the Urn, Drogskol Captain, Geist of Saint Traft, and Drogskol Reaver as well. Beckon Apparition, Entreat the Angels, and Army of the Damned for more token goodness.
I have a bit of control but motly I just beat them down with all my spirits + extorting goodness.

Another theme you could run with Orzhov is a Sacrifice deck that utilized that High Priest of Penance (he combos well with stuff that can make him tougher. Cartel Aristocrat + Blood Artist + token generators of some sort. Perhaps Bloodthrone Vampire...  but you wouldn't be itnerested in this Orzhov combo, since you despire Blood Artist,  so never mind

I am White/Black
My plain wasn't to play cards of Innistrad Block but i could make some exception since there isn't a M13 version of a w/b land.

-Vault of Archangel is interesting. Its ability cost 4, i know but, woow, is the greater version of the guild mage's first effect.

-When one usually look a the Orzhov list, see many creatures and one could think that a rare creature of that guild is obviously powerful. That's a lie.
 I've watched the Return to Ravnica list and i didn't compared Desecration Demon with Alm Beast. My mind was blurred by Orzhov list and totally forgot about him. Now i'm wondering, why should one use Alm Beast?It is not a flyer, it doesn't get counters and give your enemy lifelink. It's pretty awful. You're a genius!!

-Thrull Parasite:I thought that paying life to remove counters was not so great, removing 1 by 1 counters against a simic/golgari deck is not the best. I opted for Dutiful Thrull to block 8/8 hexproof creature. Maybe blocking a big hexproof guys is good but, why focusing on that thrull when you have removal? What's more, 1extort  for 1 is good. I've watched the undying burn combo, with Geralf's Messenger. I recognize it's good but i don't like that deck. I want to leech life by extort, not to sacrifice it for burn. In few words, a control deck, not an aggro one.

-I thought removal deck was meaning control. Now i know that's wrong i would implement thoose card ( as before, didn't compared for an Orzhov deck) but don't know what to take out. I like Murder soo much. Isn't it lovely? Maybe not so much if my opponent has regeneration.
What should i remove for thoose spells? What of them should i implement really? I like all of them.

-I love Crypt Ghast mana ramp always makes me smile. One expendable black creature that i like in particular is Xathrid Gorgon. Her control effect seems powerful,nearly arresting each creature everyturn? Yes, please. From beafy creatures you listed, the only two goods seem Griselbrand and Bloodgift Demon. Paying life for draws in a life leech deck it's right the deal. Lord of the Void is good but i fear for him to die easily. Sepulchral Primordial is the bad version of one before. Killing Wave? THE PERFECT REMOVAL.

-I played Duels of Planeswalker 2013, and still playing it. I've played Vampire Nighthawk. Most of the times, dies to block the big buddy guy.
I thought it was a waste of space for a Smite. Ethereal Armor? Changes Everything!! Combining that aura with the arrest and pacifism and all the control enchant it makes it a really good card in a control deck. I guess it was designed in fact for Azorius. Well, it works better in an Azorius. Should i play Azorius if i want to gain an effective use of this card? I don't want to play a worse version of an Azorius deck. I want to play Orzhov. What do you think? 
-Sacrificing deck is not my style. It makes use again of Blood Artist. Maybe sacrificing was the mechanic of old Orzhov but i want to make use of extort mechanic. I would play and undying zombie Innistrad deck if i wanted to play a sacrifice deck.

Thank you Noohj!! You gave me so many great suggestion, i want to use a lot of them. Now i should work again on the list and keep on trying make it functionally
Anytime,  Black/White has been my favorite color combo ever since I began playing Magic.

Murder is good. Yes.

The reason I use the Thrull parasite is for it's 1 drop extort,  and the counter removal.  
You'll be gaining so much life it isn't too much of an issue.

You could also throw in Chalice of Life for **** and giggles.

Smite isn't horrible. But isn't amazing either.  It is great in extort decks because it's cheap (then you can extort to your hearts content).

Also in terms of the big bad demons, the card draw IS nice,  but the fact that they are big bodies with evasion (in this case, flying) they'll do some big damage.  Especially if you combine them with Essence Harvest. (You can cast it after combat for essentially double damage.) Or say they arrest/pacify your big guy,  doesn't matter,  you can still essence harvest for direct damage, making whatever is locked down still useful.  (the proper way to play around essence harvest would be Board wipes or Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere)

I am White/Black
so what kind of spell should i use? Removal or arrests? I currently have space for 16 and 20 creatures. Should i increase spell space?
what to do if an opponent keep on damagin' me with aggro creatures? block? no to block and extort? removal? arrest style? Is Threasury Thrull worth the deck? 



2x Ethereal Armor
2X Arrest
3x Blind Obedience
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Murder
2x Stab Wound
2x Killing Wave

4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
8x Swamp
8x Plains

how do i keep upgradet the deck in first post?
Is better now?
hmm... maybe i should put Killing wave in sideboard but i don't know. 

Your spells look perfect to me. 

I'd get rid of the Syndic of Tithes,  replace him with 1 kingpin and 1 more desecration demon.
 Maybe get rid of 1 of each plains/swamp  to put in 2 vault of the archangels.  but thats up to you. 
I am White/Black
but, isn't the mana curve a bit strange in this way? Aren't there too many expensive creatures if i put 1 more 3 cost mana and one of 4? By the way, why is Kingping's pet better than the Screecher? Is 2 at the power good? Does this deserve the third round cast? Should i use it to block creatures?

Now, let's try the side board:

1) is against hateful stalkers deck
2) is against golgari/zombie/flashback decks
4) too if golgari has golgari charm
3) to screew up Selesnya and don't know what else
the 2 power is worth the 1 mana,  because it'll end games faster if than the screecher.  I'm not fond of either of them honestly.  But if I had to choose, kingpin, just so I could be offensive with him.   I'd rather have a different 2 drop. 

That is a great sideboard.

I am White/Black
Nighthawk is wonderful, and have you thought of silverblade Paladin I know you said you didn't want to go into the other sets, but it is a card that is to be watched out for. Put that on the Alms beast or your demon and it goes from 6 to 12, and on the alm they don't get the lifelink effect cause they never do dam to it. Unless they have first strike as well. I know he doesn't like the thrull, but a blocker for 1 that has regen of just 1? it is great for early game. I agree that the extort is amazing, but this allows you to block while getting your hitters out. 

I would drop a Ghast or two, having more than one on the field is kinda dead mana, not to mention if you get two out there all this mana and nothing to spend it on. You are still only swinging with a 2/2. I would add some more demons. The one of the Kingpin's Pet.....seems out of place....I know yu want extort, but I would drop for another nighthawk. 

Essientually you are running 12 of each type of mana. That at least say swamp in the name. I prefer the removal of Mutilate over killing wave, or sever the bloodline. Killing wave is nice in decks based around it. 

I like the removal, I really do, but have you thought about their charm? It doesn't get a lot of love I have seen, but it really isn't all that bad. You may take some life but it seems you have ways to offset it, and the bounce back can save a creature or two as well.

I am sorry for the long reply, but I hope this helped some. I am also running B/W and I am using the suggestions I recomended to you and then some and it has faired me very well. I placed 1st in the pre-release with Orzhov
"I don't do tactics. I don't do guard duty. I do damage. Take it or leave it." "Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead" -Jaya Ballard, task mage "The enemy has been destroyed, sir. So have the forest, the city, your palace, your dog . . ." Keldon soldier "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
I appreciate long replies. The more suggestions we share each other, the more we improve.

Silverblade Paladin the card from Avacyn Restored that every one seem to love. I don't like it. It would be great in a aura stalker deck or in a Gruul splash white ( naya) one. Every one seems to want it in Boros deck, so why should i use it in a control extort deck? I can make exception for card that actually fill my role and match my playstyle ( Killing wave )  but a spearing card from the past block? Nah.

Crypt Ghast it's a awesome card. It's so good that they would aim it for burn so the more i have, better for me. Don't know where to spend that mana? EXTORT is here, guys!! If spent all that mana on creatures i would run out of cards from my hand easily, so i should use Sign in Blood to draw more card but i wouldn't leech enough or worse, spend my life. It would result a mana ramp deck for creatures; not my purpose for this deck even if , as Noohj says, Griselbrand is a great card.

You would have convinced to use Mutilate over Killing Wave, since the first is from M13, if Mutilate didn't kill my creatures.
If i played a sacrificed based deck with Blood Artist and cheap creatures and rise them all with Immortal Servitude
search My attempt at an Orzhov Deck here on standard forum, it's a topic started by Esterdi (don't know how to link a topic)

i would surely useMutilate... but look at Killing Wave: combine it with Crypt Ghast and you CLEAR THE BOARD.

I was of your same opinion about Dutiful Thrull. Maybe the vampire with first strike aura is better, i'm still uncertain about it.

I will think about Orzhov Charm: against Consuming Aberration it's AWFUL. Using it to save my enchanted Vampire Nighthawk is really good, a bit less if used to restore a Thrull Parasite. Bounce back Crypt Ghast/Obzedat, Ghost Council before he dies? Yes, please. How do you usually use that charm?

I used to use Killing wave, yeah it can clear the board real easily don't get me wrong, either way it is clearing both sides regaurdless of which card you use, and if you plan on pumping as much mana into it as you plan I doubt no one will pay the life including your self.

The reason I went to Mutilate in my mon black was because I used it one game where the person had to pay like 8 life per card, he was willing to do it for like 1 or 2 where I was not. While the mutilate is like NOPE it just dies.

I use my charm for a varity of things, I use it for early game board clear so I keep getting through and paying life isn't to bad for me atm. I also use it for the bounce back to save my creatures from spot removal. Because as soon as I see the Ghost council hit...well I am going for it to be honest. Thats what I did in the pre-release. I am running a deck based around the council and other cards that benifit from the bounce back. It is white black as well. I use the charm, cloud shift and resto to bounce. I run the Geralf's Messengers as well. It can be pretty devestating. Yes I run two Orzhov decks >.<

I am not arguing your point with the Ghast it is amazing just four seems a tad....much lol. Even with all your extort, you can only pay one mana per card with extort per spell, you will still probably more offten then not be sitting on mana.  I run two in my mono black.

I can see your point with the paladin, but it is just a nice staple for my deck, especially since I swing in with a 7/7 flying lifelink flying Alms beast or is just to much to handle lol . I won the game swinging with a double striked 7/7 lifelink flying alms beast with my guildmage ability up...28 damage in one swing...devestating...and I use my charm to save my paladin from removal and to resoulbound him if needed.
"I don't do tactics. I don't do guard duty. I do damage. Take it or leave it." "Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead" -Jaya Ballard, task mage "The enemy has been destroyed, sir. So have the forest, the city, your palace, your dog . . ." Keldon soldier "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
so: should is use Gift of Orzhova to pump up some creatures and swing with double strike? Isn't Desecration Demon better than two combination cards like alm beast and gift? A bounce deck could be efficient but i prefer to stay away from past block which will pass out in less than a year.  What about Treasury Thrull? Do you use it? What should i use instead of 4 Ghast? More Extort creatures? 2 Gift ? 2 Charms? Removing two ghast will decrease the chance i get mana properly for killing wave. At that point i would focus on Mutilate as you say. Could be better this way?
The demon is nice I agree very very much, but it all comes down to does the person you are facing have enough creatures to spare in keep tapping him? Granted it still gives you the advantage by making them removing creatures, but it could cause you from not being able to punch in that last bit of damage needed. I run three in my deck and two alms, it works well enough for me. The bounce would have to change everything around so I would stay away from. 

I do not use the thrull nor will I use him. I have the promo from the pre-release of him but all the play he will see is in my folder. The ghast could be used up you 4 drop 6/6 as in add more, and eitherway Mutilate still get the job done no matter how you look at it. 

If I had the life I would pay it to keep my best creature, pending on the pump in it of course, but with mutilate I have no choice no matter how early you play it, unless of course I use a quick pump up spell. Both cards can have their set backs but all in all it depends on you. I say make the changes you think would fit and be more fun to play and test it out. Try it against a bunch of different match-ups and go from there. 
"I don't do tactics. I don't do guard duty. I do damage. Take it or leave it." "Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead" -Jaya Ballard, task mage "The enemy has been destroyed, sir. So have the forest, the city, your palace, your dog . . ." Keldon soldier "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
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