Opalesence

15 posts / 0 new
Last post
In an EDH game,

I had a humility on the battlefield, I then put an opalescence onto the battlelfield

Turning about 15 enchantments into creatures, all losing their abilities except for opalesence

I then cast bribery to snag someone's shriekmaw

It's ETB trigger would work to destroy humilty and allow me to procreed to attack with my newly rejuvinated enchantment army correct?

Since humilty is now a creature, it's subject to it's own ability to remove its ability, thus making it a vanilla 1/1 at the time shriekmaw came into play?

the 2 guys i was playing with argued with me, so in the end I just left the game, said the hell with it

But if I understand the gatherer's ruling, I was correct, and I could of popped my humilty

Shriekmaw has no abilities, that includes no trigger
proud member of the 2011 community team
Shriekmaw has no abilities, that includes no trigger



How so? I cast it after my opalescence was on the battlefield

thus making the humilty have no ability because it was a creature and creatures have no abilities
An ability can't cause a dependency loop with itself. By the time Humility's ability has been removed, its ability has also taken effect, so all creatures, including Humility, will have no abilities.
Rules Advisor
An ability can't cause a dependency loop with itself. By the time Humility's ability has been removed, its ability has also taken effect, so all creatures, including Humility, will have no abilities.



It is a static ability though

If I naturalize a pithing needle, it's not going to keep me from using the named card

why would humility still make creatures that ETB after it loses it's ability lose their abilities?
right...
f*cking layers

I'd also argue that the creatures weren't 1/1, but CMC/CMC, because Opalescence had the newer timestamp than Humility

but it's late for me, so take it with a grain of salt
proud member of the 2011 community team
right...
f*cking layers

I'd also argue that the creatures weren't 1/1, but CMC/CMC, because Opalescence had the newer timestamp than Humility

but it's late for me, so take it with a grain of salt


You are correct.  From the FAQ, you apply them in timestamp order.  Since the Opalescense has the later timestamp, it's P/T setting is the one that "wins"
 
Opalescence making them CM/CM was forgotten by me, but that's not the problem i'm having

Shriekmaw's ETB trigger would work right?
An ability can't cause a dependency loop with itself. By the time Humility's ability has been removed, its ability has also taken effect, so all creatures, including Humility, will have no abilities.



It is a static ability though

If I naturalize a pithing needle, it's not going to keep me from using the named card

why would humility still make creatures that ETB after it loses it's ability lose their abilities?


Humility doesn't have a one-time effect. Static abilities are checked continuously. Humility applies to each new creature as soon as it enters the battlefield. When checking to see whether a new creature will have its abilities, you first from the state of the game before any continuous effects are applied. At that moment, Humility and Shriekmaw both have their abilities. At a certain point in the layer order Humility's effect is applied and all creatures lose their abilities. Since Shriekmaw is a creature at this point, its abilities are removed. This application of effects occurs at every moment Shriekmaw is on the battlefield, so at no point will it have its enters-the-battlefield trigger.
Rules Advisor
An ability can't cause a dependency loop with itself. By the time Humility's ability has been removed, its ability has also taken effect, so all creatures, including Humility, will have no abilities.



It is a static ability though

If I naturalize a pithing needle, it's not going to keep me from using the named card

why would humility still make creatures that ETB after it loses it's ability lose their abilities?


Humility doesn't have a one-time effect. Static abilities are checked continuously. Humility applies to each new creature as soon as it enters the battlefield. When checking to see whether a new creature will have its abilities, you first from the state of the game before any continuous effects are applied. At that moment, Humility and Shriekmaw both have their abilities. At a certain point in the layer order Humility's effect is applied and all creatures lose their abilities. Since Shriekmaw is a creature at this point, its abilities are removed. This application of effects occurs at every moment Shriekmaw is on the battlefield, so at no point will it have its enters-the-battlefield trigger.



But it's lost it's ability to take away abilities because it's a creature from opalescence

Or once it lost its ability, it no longer effected creatures and their abilities, so it regained it's ability to remove abilities and it just constantly jumps back and forth?


Here's a simpler answer. Humility explicitly says that "All creatures lose all abilities." That means that if Humility is affecting any creatures at all, it's affecting every creature on the battlefield. The time that each creature entered the battlefield doesn't matter. The particular interaction of Humility and Opalescence is hard to wrap one's brain around, but I can guarantee you that this is how it works.

If someone else wants to give a more exhaustive answer, feel free. I don't have the time right now to go into gory detail.
Rules Advisor
Here's a simpler answer. Humility explicitly says that "All creatures lose all abilities." That means that if Humility is affecting any creatures at all, it's affecting every creature on the battlefield. The time that each creature entered the battlefield doesn't matter. The particular interaction of Humility and Opalescence is hard to wrap one's brain around, but I can guarantee you that this is how it works.

If someone else wants to give a more exhaustive answer, feel free. I don't have the time right now to go into gory detail.



I see what you're saying now

I guess my opponents were right, either way, it was I won if it worked, and lost if it didn't

I'll just have to be more careful when I play humilty in the future haha

Thanks for your time

613.5. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.

An effect can't be self-dependent.

Humility's ability starts to apply in layer 6 and removes its own ability, but it is still applied in layer 7 making creatures 1/1 even though it removed itself.

It will also remove the abilities of other creatures as well, except those abilities granted by an effect with a later time stamp.
eg. equipping a Loxodon Warhammer to a creature will give it trample and lifelink if the equipping happens after Humility enters the field.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

What you are missing is that, when applying continuous effects, you start with the base characteristics of the object - ie what is printed on the card - and apply effects layer-by-layer.

This means that Humility will always remove the abilities written on the card. No exceptions.
Still blessed by Julia of Hillsdown. M:tG Rules Adviser You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
This means that Humility will always remove the abilities written on the card. No exceptions.

Humility can also remove abilities not written on the card too.
eg. a creature with Loxodon Warhammer equipped as Humility enters the field will lose trample and lifelink even though they aren't written on the creature.

However, re-equipping the warhammer to another creature will set the ability gaining effect to a new later timestamp and it will apply after Humility's effect and that other creature will still get trample and lifelink.

With respect to Shriekmaw, Humility applies to it and removes its abilities because those abilities aren't being gained by an effect, rather they're just printed on the card and as such it doesn't matter when Shreikmaw enters the field relative to Humility.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out