If wizards can find spells, martial characters should find maneuvers.

If wizards can find (or research) spells, martial characters should find (or research) maneuvers.

It's fairly trope-ish for a martial artist to go seek out new manuvers.  Or to spend a few months under a waterfall developing new manuvers.


This also opens the door for "improv".  Perhaps a fighter wants to be able to stand on thin branches without breaking them (wire-fu style).  It's easy to add that (assuming it fits your game style).

"Light Foot: You can spend a martial damage die to reduce your weight by 1/4.  Spending two dice reduces your weight by 1/2, three dice...  when pushed or pulled you fly twice as far."

Or if someone want's their rogue to run along a wall, jump off and stab someone.  You could add that as a manuver.  Or whatever you can imagine.


Edit: And barbarians should find/research new rages, rogue new skill tricks, ranger's new arrow tricks, ect..

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yay!


More of this stuff. We'd need to bring back something kind of like the AD&D limits on effects known based on attribute but I'm all over this.

yay!

More of this stuff. We'd need to bring back something kind of like the AD&D limits on effects known based on attribute but I'm all over this.


You mean like..  "you can know upto Int manuvers"?

I'm good with that.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I agree, but martial characters would need to prepare their maneuvers. That's how wizards offset that benefit -- whether or not they know just 8 spells or 30 spells, they can still only prepare 1 + class level per day. It improves versatility but not power, knowing more spells. Or perhaps that's already how it's supposed to work, since dice are fixed (much like spell slots)?
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
I agree, but martial characters would need to prepare their maneuvers. That's how wizards offset that benefit -- whether or not they know just 8 spells or 30 spells, they can still only prepare 1 + class level per day. It improves versatility but not power, knowing more spells. Or perhaps that's already how it's supposed to work, since dice are fixed (much like spell slots)?

Right.  Knowing more maneuvers improves versatility, not power. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Gee I sense a parallel with a certain late 3e book... what was it called again...
Gee I sense a parallel with a certain late 3e book... what was it called again...

Tome of good ideas and bad implimentation?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This road will only lead to madness, but I'd be fine with it existing as a module. I agree conceptually that anyone should be able to learn new stuff over time, which is thematically opposed to concepts such as XP and character levels. IF we allow casters to learn new spells between levels, then I agree it needs to happen for non-casters as well, but IMO I'd rather see that occur only on level up. Otherwise

A base assumption is that the standard wizard takes years of study to reach level 1, and yet from that point forward, it might take them a few months game time to ascend to level 10+!? And during that time they learn many new spells with each "level", yet they should ALSO be able to ignore levels for the most part and learn them over morning coffee?

Magic Dual Color Test
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Gee I sense a parallel with a certain late 3e book... what was it called again...

Tome of good ideas and bad implimentation?



Tome of Misconceptions also works.

The number of people who claim that the warblade is magical still astounds me.
I'm totaly in favour of giving more features to non-spell casters (non-magical, semi-magical, and magical)    Let's try that before nerfing the spell casters.  

With that said, I don't want to see a huge influx of contrived options that are better off just being available via improvised actions.     

For example, the Viking Breserker in 2e could change into a wolf or cave bear, and he could even spirit-travel.    I'd fully support that kind of feature for the barbarian in D&D Next.


I'm totaly in favour of giving more features to non-spell casters (non-magical, semi-magical, and magical)    Let's try that before nerfing the spell casters.  

With that said, I don't want to see a huge influx of contrived options that are better of just being available via improvised actions.     

For example, the Viking Breserker in 2e could change into a wolf or cave bear, and he could even spirit-travel.    I'd fully support that kind of feature for the barbarian in D&D Next. 

Ohh.. good point.

Barbarians should also be able to find/research rages.  (and they did mention barbarians turning into animals in the podcast).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm totaly in favour of giving more features to non-spell casters (non-magical, semi-magical, and magical)    Let's try that before nerfing the spell casters.  

With that said, I don't want to see a huge influx of contrived options that are better of just being available via improvised actions.     

For example, the Viking Breserker in 2e could change into a wolf or cave bear, and he could even spirit-travel.    I'd fully support that kind of feature for the barbarian in D&D Next. 

Ohh.. good point.

Barbarians should also be able to find/research rages.  (and they did mention barbarians turning into animals in the podcast).



Yes, I wondered if Mearls actually remembered the Viking Breserker from 2e or not.     Personally, I liked that version a lot more than the Breserker Kit in in 2e.     Then again it was more of a sub-class than a kit.      


They can in my games.

I'll even let you buy the training for feats..

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'm not against the idea, but you can also roleplay the very act of levelling up.

You don't have to be a railroader, just ask them what AND HOW they would like to learn at next level, and make those events coincide with the levelling up.

3.5E actually suggests that the PCs take a break from adventuring and spend some time training between levels. You cold simply roleplay that.


EDIT: If they level up in the middle of an adventure, you can give them only numerical things like HP and attack bonuses, since it makes sense that those advance through field practice as opposed to training. Then take the break after the adventure ends.
My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
Unless you have zero interest in class balance, both casters and non-caster should have comparable game elements (which does not require them to "feel" the same, that is managed by presentation). Learning new features between level-ups is a fine module, and it can and should apply to all classes universally...or not at all.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Unless you have zero interest in class balance, both casters and non-caster should have comparable game elements (which does not require them to "feel" the same, that is managed by presentation). Learning new features between level-ups is a fine module, and it can and should apply to all classes universally...or not at all.



I disagree with this notion. I honestly believe you can have balance between characters like the 3E Sorcerer and the 3E Wizard, the Sorcerer just should have more advantages over the Wizard than he had in the book. Heck, the Wizard was crippled if you remember how the cleric just had all the spells, period.

My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
^^ True
Im in favor of letting every class pick up martial skills on the fly. Im fine with sorcerers learning magic from other sorcerers too. The time it takes to learn might be slower than a lvl so it really isnt a power jump for any class. 

Why cant fighters teach other classes martial skill or wizards to train others classes in resistance. All works for me.  
That only works if said advantages can't be eclipsed by the extra spells the wizard/cleric types are getting.
Unless you have zero interest in class balance, both casters and non-caster should have comparable game elements (which does not require them to "feel" the same, that is managed by presentation). Learning new features between level-ups is a fine module, and it can and should apply to all classes universally...or not at all.

I disagree with this notion. I honestly believe you can have balance between characters like the 3E Sorcerer and the 3E Wizard, the Sorcerer just should have more advantages over the Wizard than he had in the book. Heck, the Wizard was crippled if you remember how the cleric just had all the spells, period.

You do raise a good point, though, since it really is a disparity between non-wizards vs wizards (as far as learning between level-ups). How can you possibly have balance when only one class can learn new features effectively "on demand"? Do you think 3e fighters should be able to learn new feats between levels, if they find a book or teacher? That is effectively the same issue, since a 3e fighter is defined by their feat selection as much as a wizard is defined by their spell selection.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Stuff like this actually makes for great non-standard rewards, in the same way as handing out an ancient tome full of spells for the wizard.  And as people have said, it is well balanced because it doesn't increase your power (in terms of damage or other aspects), but instead increases your versatility. 

Also, just as you can make up your own custom spells, I can see myself making up new maneuvers/rages/wossnames that can only be attained through in-game training/discovery/whathaveyous.
I like this idea. I like it so much I let a fighter and a rogue spend some time studying w/ monks to pick up a few things (back when rogues did maneuvers).
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
I like this idea. I like it so much I let a fighter and a rogue spend some time studying w/ monks to pick up a few things (back when rogues did maneuvers).

Rogue still has "maneuvers".  They just go off his skill-die instead of his damage die.  Simply allow him to learn a "ventriloquism", or "slide down the banister" trick in his spare time.

No reason to exclude him.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Unless you have zero interest in class balance, both casters and non-caster should have comparable game elements (which does not require them to "feel" the same, that is managed by presentation). Learning new features between level-ups is a fine module, and it can and should apply to all classes universally...or not at all.

I disagree with this notion. I honestly believe you can have balance between characters like the 3E Sorcerer and the 3E Wizard, the Sorcerer just should have more advantages over the Wizard than he had in the book. Heck, the Wizard was crippled if you remember how the cleric just had all the spells, period.

You do raise a good point, though, since it really is a disparity between non-wizards vs wizards (as far as learning between level-ups). How can you possibly have balance when only one class can learn new features effectively "on demand"? Do you think 3e fighters should be able to learn new feats between levels, if they find a book or teacher? That is effectively the same issue, since a 3e fighter is defined by their feat selection as much as a wizard is defined by their spell selection.




Infinite versatility is counterbalanced by Vancian "guesswork" casting. In 3E terms, just give the Sorcerer more "oomph" (they did this, but not enough) and he can be balanced against the Wizard, no need to give him a similar "learn-on-the-fly" mechanic.

EDIT: Again I'm not against the idea, but I don't think it is necessary to achieve enough balance. I only want enough balance to feel useful to the party regardless of my character concept and optimization. To be clear: this level of balance was not achieved in 3E.

My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
I think most classes could stand to benefit from this kind of design. The trick is making sure that the useage for these level-free learnings is tied to a fixed value based on level (like spell slots and dice).

At the very least, this sounds like a good minor module to include in some compendious tome during the edition's lifespan. I'd use it. 
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
That only works if said advantages can't be eclipsed by the extra spells the wizard/cleric types are getting.



First you need to make sure the ftrs lvl 1 advantages matter. Isnt it still efficent to take a longsword and bow over 20 lvls? How does weapon mastery matter?
That's actually a slightly different problem.

Non-magical gear doesn't change at all from level 1 to 20.

Armor is probably the worst offender because having more armor profs is only beneficial if you have low dex. So for characters with decent+ dex mods additional armor prof isn't an advantage. Weapons still have things like range that are applicable variations at all levels,  but as you level up heavy armor is likely to look worse rather than better, barring catastrophic permanent dex damage.

If wizards can find (or research) spells, martial characters should find (or research) maneuvers.



Sounds good, make it so.

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Gee I sense a parallel with a certain late 3e book... what was it called again...

Tome of good ideas and bad implimentation?



Tome of Misconceptions also works.

The number of people who claim that the warblade is magical still astounds me.


What gets me is people didn't read it.  I mean, you were still limited by level.  You only got new toys whenever you reached a certain level.  Just like every other non-caster based class...
I love the idea of finding/learning/researching new manouvers but only having a certain number in your "suite" or whatever. However I did imagine a mid level barbarian walking ito a library

Gragnar the Ironthewed: Puny bookman!
Librarian: (looks around) errr, me?
Gragnar the Ironthewed: YES! Gragnar is to face a dragon with firebreath. Gragnar knows he must resist the fire of the dragon. Gragnar can not afford amulet of fire protection, and will learn to use his rage to resist the dragon's breath
Librarian: ummm, who is Gragnar?
Gragnar the Ironthewed: IAM GRAGNAR!
librarian:why are you speaking about yourself in the thi...
Gragnar the Ironthewed: (interupting) SHUT UP BOOKMAN!
librarian: sorry. So what is it you wnat exactly
Gragnar the Ironthewed: Books on fire, fire proof creatures, and primitive dieties of fire! Gragnar will research new rage that lets him resist fire
librarian: Oh, ok, I'll just go grab some for you.(leaves to get books)
librarianreturning with books ) There you go
Gragnar the Ironthewed: (opens first book, glances at page, looks at librarian, looks back at page)
Gragnor forgot, me no have literacy, carry-over from 3rd eddition...
Librarian: I understand you talking about yourself in the third person, but now you are serriously leaning on the fourth wall and...
Gragnar the Ironthewed: ME NEVER LEARNED TO READ!!!!!!!
Seems like gragnar would have better luck with a bard.
That's actually a slightly different problem.

Non-magical gear doesn't change at all from level 1 to 20.

Armor is probably the worst offender because having more armor profs is only beneficial if you have low dex. So for characters with decent+ dex mods additional armor prof isn't an advantage. Weapons still have things like range that are applicable variations at all levels,  but as you level up heavy armor is likely to look worse rather than better, barring catastrophic permanent dex damage.




Im wondering how you would fix an area we agree on.

Im more interested in armor/weapon mastery mattering than balancing high levels.

If wizards can find (or research) spells, martial characters should find (or research) maneuvers.

It's fairly trope-ish for a martial artist to go seek out new manuvers.  Or to spend a few months under a waterfall developing new manuvers.


This also opens the door for "improv".  Perhaps a fighter wants to be able to stand on thin branches without breaking them (wire-fu style).  It's easy to add that (assuming it fits your game style).

"Light Foot: You can spend a martial damage die to reduce your weight by 1/4.  Spending two dice reduces your weight by 1/2, three dice...  when pushed or pulled you fly twice as far."

Or if someone want's their rogue to run along a wall, jump off and stab someone.  You could add that as a manuver.  Or whatever you can imagine.


Edit: And barbarians should find/research new rages, rogue new skill tricks, ranger's new arrow tricks, ect..



The lowest form of this would be rather simple.

optional rule: a fighter can learn a manuver difrent from the one listed in his fighting style by spending a amount of time training with a trainer who knows the manuver the character wants to learn.
for example a fighter with the dualist fighting style can learn defensive roll instead of disarm if he trains with a marksman fighter.


 
This isn't the first time this topic has come up. And it isn't the first time I couldn't agree more. WOTC, make it so.

This leaves Clerics (and possibly divine casters in general) as the oddball out, though. They've already got free access to a monstous list of spells, making it very difficult to let them learn anything in this manner.

@DreadPirateNat

Wouldn't it make more sense for a Barbarian to consult a shaman, or something? Tribal dance rituals to invoke nature/warrior spirits seems like a suitable medium in gaining a new type of rage, I'd say.

This leaves Clerics (and possibly divine casters in general) as the oddball out, though. They've already got free access to a monstous list of spells, making it very difficult to let them learn anything in this manner.

Is reducing the spells known for clerics (and thus allowing for in-game discoveries) really a bad thing for clerics?

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hackmaster had a good training section when you leveled you had to pay gold to train it was similar to odnd leveling with masters, and you could pick new skills to learn while doing that or upgrade ones you had however they had a more non weapon and weapon proficiencies system. when it comes to finding menuvers like a wizard finds spells that isnt really realisitic as he needs to find a stronger fighter than him thats higher level to learn and that costs money so i like the level training system.
Color me the odd man out. I don't really see the need for this in the core game, and I question the need for rules for this in a module.

From a mechanical standpoint: Are you going to limit the access that fighters have to maneuvers otherwise? Will there be some limits on which maneuvers the fighter can pick, unless he has happened upon them in his adventuring? If so, why the limitation? It seems like the DM saying NO when they should have said YES - a meaningless cut into the fun of a character with no real gain other than "because I said so". If no, then what does it mean when a martial warrior happens upon a new martial maneuver? They can pick that one when they level up? They get an extra one? They simply add it to their repetoire?

From a story standpoint: How does this even happen? Does the martial character see an enemy make a move, and then suddenly realize in the midst of battle how to copy that move? Does the martial character find a scroll of maneuvers? (Can you buy scrolls of maneuvers? Can you use a scroll of a maneuver without copying it into your maneuver book?)

From a game standpoint: What does this add to the game that "you go and find a martial master that teaches you a wonderful new trick" doesn't add when done in the empty time "between levels"?

Personally, I think "finding a new spell" is an aged concept, too traditional and limiting for either a wizard or a martial character. I'm willing to cede that this is an opinion, and that others may enjoy this concept, however. I think it would be best used as an optional rule in an optional system (optional-ception?). A sidebar mentioning alternate rewards in an alternate martial maneuver system more similar to ToB:Bo9S.

As is, since fighter manuevers are just a more flexible version of 4e martial maneuvers, it's too much like giving the martial character an extra power.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

Historically there were a few books that showed fighting techniques, show I could see learning from a scroll or trainer.
Is reducing the spells known for clerics (and thus allowing for in-game discoveries) really a bad thing for clerics?



Heh, tell that to the design team. I've wanted just that since day one!

@blacksheepcannibal

Just to be clear, do you think that all classes should learn new spells/manuevers/whatever at level-up only, or that only non-wizard classes should face that restriction? Excluding advanced rules of course.

EDIT:
@Vokarius

Historically, there weren't any spellbooks that had working spells either...

Just to be clear, do you think that all classes should learn new spells/manuevers/whatever at level-up only, or that only non-wizard classes should face that restriction? Excluding advanced rules of course.

I think all classes should get new features/spells/manuevers/whatever at level-up. Honestly, in a perfect world, I would parcel out everything you get as you level up over the spread of a level, but that's me (as in the incremental advance system that is presented in 13th Age).

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

Hmm... I tentatively agree with the overall theme here.  I think that giving martial characters more options at their fingertips is a good thing.  At the same time, I am very wary of approaching it from a "Class A does it like this, so Class B, C, and D should also!" perspective.  Warrior-types learning stances, tricks, maneuvers, etc. is a cool notion that I support.  Implementing it the same as the spellcasting system would be terrible, though.  

I do have another worry about a mechanic like this: stifling roleplay.  If you codify too many options in a game, you are effectively restricting improvisation.  A very crude example: Warrior A commits the time to learn a fighting style that allows him to disarm opponents.  Warrior James is then allowed to make disarm attempts.  Warrior Fred tells DM Bagelbumper "I would like to knock the weapon out of my opponent's hands!"  Dm Bagelbumper then responds, "Have you learned the disarm maneuver?"  If we're talking about a system that gives small benefits to doing something, rather than said system being the only means to adequately achieve these skills/maneuvers, I'm more inclined to agree.

This is actually why I preferred a lot of the earlier packet mechanics to the later additions; the system assumed a lot less, which gave more leeway to player and DM alike.  It is still a playtest, though, so I'm not going to get too carried away with the gloom-and-doom griping. 
First:  I absolutely and completely agree with the premise:  Maneuver using characters should be able to learn new maneuvers, just as wizards can learn new spells.



I would suggest the following limitations on this process:


1)  Learning the new spell or maneuver need not be automatic.  It used to require an intelligence check to learn a new spell.  It also can be automatic.  However if it is automatic for the wizard, it should be automatic for the fighter, and vice-versa.  And making it an intelligence check for both classes is not an acceptable approach because intelligence checks are not equivalent for both classes.


2)  This obviously requries them to create many more maneuvers.  On the other hand, it also means that at least some of the maneuvers can be less generically useful/ more specialized.  Reason:  When you only get a few maneuvers, they have all got to be really awesome to justify taking up the limited 'character building resources' alloted to the character.  When the number of maneuvers you can learn is less restrictive  - and when you can gain them though gameplay and don't need to expend any 'character building resources' on them, the system can afford to have less generically awesome maneuvers (and spells) because you aren't giving anything up by learning them.


3)  The maneuvers ought to be organized into tiers (as are spells).  The rationale for that was spelled out in an earlier thread, so I'll just quote myself to save time:


The argument for tiered lists is indirect.  But I think the game would be better off with them.
First - despite the fact that spells get more powerful with the spell level they are cast at, they are still separated into tiered lists (base spell level).
But the reason I think this is a good thing is not a question of balance.  It is a question of perception and gameplay.
I think it is a good thing to have abilities you can't do now because of your level.  It gives extra meaning to the levels when you gain them.  If you can know any number of maneuvers - but those maneuvers are not tiered, as you go up levels, what does that really mean?  Sure - you get another maneuver.  But if you can also learn them outside of the leveling system, that is a pretty hollow gain.   And sure, the maneuvers themselves get a bit more effective - but just as with gaining a plus to hit or some more hit points, that isn't a very satisying gain either (hence all of the complaints about 'empty levels'.
But if the maneuvers are tiered -  if there are maneuvers you just can't do until you reach level 5 (or whatever) - leveling means a little bit more.  It means that you don't just do whatever a little bit better, you learn to do things you couldn't do before.
And the decision of what maneuvers to put into what tier can be nearly arbitrary (just as the decision to leave fireball as a level 3 spell and cone of cold as a level 4 spell is an arbitrary (if traditional) approach.  They could just have easily made them both level 1 spells and scaled the damage down appropriately for the lower spell level slots.
And this is why I think that if they change how maneuvers are gained and allow them to be gained outside of the leveling mechanics (i.e through tomes or trainers), I think they should also group them into tiers.
Carl  




4)  Finally - I hadn't really considered the issue of "preparation" before.  I can see the argument for it - but I don't believe it is necessary for maneuvers.  Ultimately, I think it will depend on how powerful and useful maneuvers become, but I strongly suspect that the limiting nature of the mundane when compared to the world-bending flexibility of magic is such that fighter's don't actually need the additional restriction of having to prepare maneuvers.  Essentially - magic and spells are such that a wizard can do nearly literally anything with spells; given access to their full list of spells at all times would mean that they always have the perfect solution to every problem ready at hand.  In contrast - even in the best of worlds, maneuvers are likely to still be very limited and situational.   And even if they have access to the full list of maneuvers - they are still not going to be the swiss army knife that is a wizard.  Ultimately - they are still just coming up variations on weapon combat.  So they do not need this limitation.


Carl