Guild color question

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If you look at most of the guilds in RtR/GTC (and I assume this held true back in the original Ravnica block), their colors follow the order of the color wheel on the card backs, clockwise.  Orzhov, for example, has all of its mana symbols listed with W before B; Izzet has U before R; in Golgari, B appears before G, and so on.

Why the crap do both Selesnya and Simic break this sensible trend, with G appearing before U?  Even on the shocklands the subtypes are "Forest Plains" and "Forest Island".  This makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it's annoying to look at the Breeding Pool proxies I just made and realize that stuff got printed backwards on Wizards' end, so it looks stupid in my correct copies.

Bonus question: Am I the only one who thinks this is bizarre? 
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
because is closer to (if you follow the wheel, you'd have to jump 3 colors to get from to , but you can go directly from to )

same for Simic, it is "faster" to go from to (jumping over ) than to go from to (jumping over and )
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I hate to be obsessive here, but it just seems silly to me to break the clockwise pattern to avoid "jumping" colors that don't even factor into the guilds whatsoever. Oh well....
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
that's the current template
I think I asked about this in RT&T before, but don't remember getting a good reason for it
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Moving to the Templating Forum.

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I hate to be obsessive here, but it just seems silly to me to break the clockwise pattern to avoid "jumping" colors that don't even factor into the guilds whatsoever. Oh well....


On the contrary, the current method takes the shortest clockwise path from one color to the other.
Rules Advisor
The current system makes a whole lot more sense than sticking to strictly clockwise. The guilds all work the same way: clockwise among their own colors. And if you consider all guiIds, each color appears equally often on the left and on the right.

The current system makes even more sense when you see what it does to shard colors. It ensures the colors are all contiguous and that the middle color is in the middle. Under strict clockwise, Naya would be WRG and Bant would be WUG.
The wedges look kind of weird, though.  is more symmetric than .  If they ever do a wedge block, they might want to sort that out.  Especially wedge ultimatums ( vs ).
True, but at least the printed Ultimata look right. Under TzarChasm's proposal, Titanic Ultimatum would cost , Clarion Ultimatum would still be too bad to exist but if it did it'd cost , and the other three would have the triple in the middle. Now that's confusing.

Or put another way: Line up the ten dual lands, or the ten Guildgates. At the moment:

Azorius and Orzhov have leftmost :W:
Dimir and Izzet have leftmost :U:
Rakdos and Golgari have leftmost :B:
Gruul and Boros have leftmost :R:
Selesnya and Simic have leftmost :G:

And every guildgate has the same pinlines as every two-colour gold card in its colours (e.g. Zameck Guildmage's pinlines are green on the left and blue on the right), and every two-colour gold card has mana symbols in the same order as its pinlines.

This is much more symmetrical than the alternative, which has:

Azorius, Orzhov, Boros, Selesnya all having leftmost :W:
Dimir, Izzet, Simic having leftmost :U:
Rakdos, Golgari having leftmost :B:
Gruul having leftmost :R:
Nothing at all having leftmost :G: 
The wedges look kind of weird, though.  is more symmetric than .  If they ever do a wedge block, they might want to sort that out.  Especially wedge ultimatums ( vs ).












vs.











...Yeah, I do prefer the shared enemy being in the middle.
The only downside of a change is RWU no longer being in the 'murican order.

3DH4LIF3

While having symmetry on wedge Ultimatums is... nice, I guess... there's something that seems philosophically wrong about having the allied pair separated on the card. Philosophically, I like the order they have them in currently, while aesthetically I like having them centered on the enemy. I guess that's a thing to sort out when they eventually do a wedge set, but I think the current inertia is going to be hard to fight when there's no clear advantage in either method. Besides, at least the whole cycle would have 3-2-2 in the mana costs, so it's not like we'd have any weirdness within the cycle.

The guilds, of course, are very standardized at this point, and have a nicely balanced order and symmetry. Those shouldn't change. There's no particular reason the color wheel should start at white, so defining that as the "start" and having every color combination list them in the arbitrarily decided WUBRG order would be the wrong move.
Rules Nut Advisor
Having the enemy in the middle breaks the "fewest steps" rule anyway: is "blue, skip black, red, skip green, white" as opposed to 's "red, skip green, white, blue".

Note, however, that and are equally well-supported by the rule: putting the enemy pair first was an arbitrary decision made in Apocalypse, possibly to highlight the "enemy-ness".
blah blah metal lyrics
That's the point. The current system is consistent (it's always "clockwise with fewest skips", with some extra rules to handle ties). Having wedges arranged with the shared enemy in the middle wouldn't be possible with the current system, but it would be more aesthetic, so that's a drawback of the current system.
I don't really see how it's more aesthetically pleasing for anything but hypothetical ultimatums anyway.
blah blah metal lyrics
I don't really see how it's more aesthetically pleasing for anything but hypothetical ultimatums anyway.


Symmetry is a pretty big deal to humans. If you can make the same thing symmetrical instead of asymmetrical, it will look good to more people.
Rules Nut Advisor
I don't really see how it's more aesthetically pleasing for anything but hypothetical ultimatums anyway.



: White is in the center because it bridges the gap between the two enemies.
: White is in the center because it drives the two allies apart.

This next one doesn't really mean anything, but it's aesthetic to me. Take the star on the back of a magic card. Draw a line through the wedge colors in the order that they are currently written. Now draw a line through them in the order where the shared enemy divides the ally colors. The arrow shape you get with the second method is more appropriate to the relationship between the colors.
Rules Advisor
: White is in the center because it bridges the gap between the two enemies.
: White is in the center because it drives the two allies apart.

This next one doesn't really mean anything, but it's aesthetic to me. Take the star on the back of a magic card. Draw a line through the wedge colors in the order that they are currently written. Now draw a line through them in the order where the shared enemy divides the ally colors. The arrow shape you get with the second method is more appropriate to the relationship between the colors.

This is tangential and may be tending more towards the flavor end of the spectrum rather than the function, but what are you drawing "shared enemy drives the allies apart" from? As far as I know, we don't have any real Word of God on the flavor of wedge color combinations.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Relating to the subject, I find it a bit unpleasing aesthetically that Gisela and Sigarda are and while Bruna is .
Would an angel with Culling Sun's mana cost help? ;)

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Would an angel with Culling Sun's mana cost help? ;)


Ha ha, nice one.

It might help since it gives a sense of symmetry (colors "after" white go right, colors "before" white go left) , which I guess is your point. 

It just feels like the cost is part of the traits that make the cycle. In cases like this it feels like it there's room to consider an exception from the usual symbol arrangement.
This is tangential and may be tending more towards the flavor end of the spectrum rather than the function, but what are you drawing "shared enemy drives the allies apart" from? As far as I know, we don't have any real Word of God on the flavor of wedge color combinations.

You're right, the phrasing I used didn't make a lot of sense. The point was that in each of the color combinations I listed, white is the "focal point."
Rules Advisor
It's not a mana cost, but they have made exceptions to the color order before: Sword of Fire and Ice. I'd prefer not to have too many of those, though, and I'm glad they don't extend to mana costs.
It's not a mana cost, but they have made exceptions to the color order before: Sword of Fire and Ice. I'd prefer not to have too many of those, though, and I'm glad they don't extend to mana costs.

I just noticed the Apocalypse's enemy-colored split cards cycle are all in the wrong order; Fire // Ice, Order // Chaos, Life // Death, Night // Day, Illusion // Reality. The Invasion allied-colors one (Assault // Batery and so on) are on the right order. At least it's the full cycle.

[<o>]
That was done because four of the word pairs (all but Fire & Ice) have a traditional(? standardized? commonly-accepted?) order associated with them so the halves were arranged to match that expectation.

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I don't view the order of split cards as falling under the color order rules. Those don't have two direct symbols of representations of a color to order; instead, there are two complete cards, the color of which is just one aspect. Also, because the order of the cards affects the name, it's part of the design of the card, and it can't be changed by errata.
According to Mark Rosewater split cards are supposed to follow the normal color order rules (the rationale being, I guess, why not use the established convention?) but had to be reversed for Apocalypse because of the thing I mentioned.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

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Zammm = Batman

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