Unnatural aging in D&D and why it is needed

Longevity and unnatural aging are both popular tropes in mythology and fiction, yet currently it is noticeably absent from D&D Next. Granted, there is the revised, rare Potion of Longevity, and Timeless Body special ability makes a character "immune to magical aging". However, besides the Potion of Longevity, there is no chance to actually be "magically aged" at the moment, even though such effects wouldn't be something new in D&D system.

I'd like to see a reintroduction of magical aging - maybe not in such an overwhelming manner as it was e.g. in AD&D 2nd Edition, where drinking a Potion of Speed would age a character one year... or perhaps in just the same way! Specifically, I'd like to see the Wish spell description changed. Even though, as far as I know, the true Wish never had aging as a side-effect (unlike the Limited Wish), in D&D Next, due to its ability to unerringly create a rare magic item (say, a Potion of Longevity?) or a mundane object worth as much as 25000 gp each and every day without any real consequences, in my opinion it needs some sort of possibly long-term cost, and magical aging seems perfect for that role.

I understand that high-level characters are supposed to be virtually supernatural, living legends (even though still technically mortal), and that's great. Even so, with implemented mechanic I can't help but imagine Asmodeus and other infernal lords asking powerful wizards for favors, and not the other way around... After all, 17+ level wizards can cast Wish day after day, whereas Asmodeus and his pit fiends can only do so once per year!

To make magical aging more common in games, yet a bit easier to bear (especially should it be caused by common spells, like Haste, or certain monsters - especially undeads and fiends), Greater Restoration could also provide a minor rejuvenation effect.  All suggested changes should make Wish less of a "setting-breaker", while also making the Timeless Body ability something actually noticeable without the need to speed-up the campaign.
Aging doesn't even remotely counter that kind of stuff.  The solution to 'setting-breaking' spells and effects is simply not to include them.
Aging doesn't even remotely counter that kind of stuff.  The solution to 'setting-breaking' spells and effects is simply not to include them.


Or to at least label them, or put them in a sidebar, or put warnings in the DMG about them.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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Fair enough; still, it potentially adds a bit depth to the game - if not setting-wise, as in: "powerful wizards fear death above everything else, and often devote most of their lives to a constant search for immortality, all the while being tempted by the lichdom and fiendish promises", then at least at the strategy level, with "character's age" as yet another, high-tier resource to manage, similarly to food and supplies.

I very much like the idea of making it an option discussed closely in the referee's guide, though, along with other potential traps awaiting for the campaign-makers.
Unnatural aging can be cool, but it really can't be claimed to balance anything becuase of the long-lived races.  One of the problem of unnatural aging in D&D has always been that elves and such races don't get aged propotional to the way humans do; instead, they get hit with the same number of years.  Also, unnatural agining is a lot like requiring animal or human sacrifice to cast spells.  It's thematically very cool, but serves as a very poor way to attempt to offset the power of spells.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Unnatural aging can be cool, but it really can't be claimed to balance anything becuase of the long-lived races.  One of the problem of unnatural aging in D&D has always been that elves and such races don't get aged propotional to the way humans do; instead, they get hit with the same number of years.  Also, unnatural agining is a lot like requiring animal or human sacrifice to cast spells.  It's thematically very cool, but serves as a very poor way to attempt to offset the power of spells.



Back when I cared, I houseruled that the aging was multiplied by a factor based on the race's lifespan.  A human might age 5 years, but an elf would age 50 or 100 or whatever.
resource to manage, similarly to food and supplies.



Yeah ... I don't know anybody who actually wants to mess around with tracking rations and ammo anymore.
Yeah ... I don't know anybody who actually wants to mess around with tracking rations and ammo anymore.

Yeh...never have really. The couple of times we played dark sun we didn't even track water.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

I agree that keeping track of recources isn't for everyone and shouldn't be required. It certainly isn't something one would want to see in a "superheroic" campaign styled after 4th Edition. On the other hand, it should be supported as a basis for oldschool exploration-oriented games (along with rules for encumbrance, etc., as unnecessary in certain games as, say, attack of opportunity and disengaging is in light-on-combat campaigns), appealing to retrogamers and regular simulationists, even if for different reasons.

Just a sidenote: I believe at least in the revised 2e AD&D from 1995, casting Limited Wish aged the caster 1 year/100 years of regular lifespan. However, Haste-related aging wasn't scalled. Truth be told, keeping Potions of Longevity as is and making them scale both have its merrits. For one thing, limiting them to +/-1d6+6 at a time years makes them much more of a "human thing".
they should include not only magical aging but also level draining as part of the rules and if people dont want to use it then they dont have too. these things are part of monster attacks and shouldnt be excluded
they should include not only magical aging but also level draining as part of the rules and if people dont want to use it then they dont have too. these things are part of monster attacks and shouldnt be excluded


Provided they are optional, like the deathknight's sword of nine lives stealing in the current bestiary, then that works for me.  However, making them automatically part of the attack and calculating that level of danger as part of the xp award for the creature leads to encounter-building problems for the very people who appear to care about it the most.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

there is no encounter building problems with a banshee you use it the way it was ment to be used or choose something else. i never had a dm pull a punch when the encounter was level appropiate. there are ways to protect yourself from the effect if your a smart player.
resource to manage, similarly to food and supplies.



Yeah ... I don't know anybody who actually wants to mess around with tracking rations and ammo anymore.



It's fun if your DM does it right.

I use thieving monkeys.

Me: Roll Wisdom.
Player 1: Crap. *rolls* Phew 12.
Player 2: *rolls* 4
Me: He sees a monkey behind you.
Player 1: OMG! Monkey!
Me: Monkey stole *rolls* 2 sammiches.
Player 2: Peanut butter?
Me: Yup. 2 of the PBs. You have now 10 total sammiches.
Player 1: YOU SEE! This is why I hold the sammiches.
2: I'm gonna chase the monkey.
Me: You chase the monkey but there is a mud puddle in front of you. Roll Dex or Strength to jump over it.
2: *rolls some low number*
Me: You don't fall in the mud but  some does splash on your sandwich pouch. 1 sandwich is now muddy.


Later he eats the sandwich and gets indegestion.

---

I made a topic earlier to gauge interest in age related modules. Most agreed to that it would be a great option for those who want it but not be part of the base game.


I once played a 3.5 email game where we players had to manage our acess over months and years to prepare for a giant battle with a well fortified enemy. Most of the PCs had to lengthen their lives with magic as 5 years passes between sessions.

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there is no encounter building problems with a banshee you use it the way it was ment to be used or choose something else. i never had a dm pull a punch when the encounter was level appropiate. there are ways to protect yourself from the effect if your a smart player.


The problem is that not everyone likes SoD or level drain.  If you figure those abilities into the challenge the creature is supposed to pose to the party, and they don't offer a replacement ability, then DMs who prefer to play without SoD or level drain have a more difficult time designing level-appropriate encounters.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

and a game should cater to the thinking of "they might not like that cause it will be too hard for them". why not just give them immortality at level1 so everything is easy and no unnatural creatures can hurt them. part of the game is researching monsters and creating strategies to fight them
and a game should cater to the thinking of "they might not like that cause it will be too hard for them". why not just give them immortality at level1 so everything is easy and no unnatural creatures can hurt them. part of the game is researching monsters and creating strategies to fight them



Nice strawman.

'Too hard' isn't the issue.  'No fun' is the issue.  Unbalanced is the issue.

And in the case of level drain, not making a lick of sense is the issue.  "the wight touched me, and I forgot how to do stuff"?  Yeah ... not following that.
and a game should cater to the thinking of "they might not like that cause it will be too hard for them". why not just give them immortality at level1 so everything is easy and no unnatural creatures can hurt them. part of the game is researching monsters and creating strategies to fight them


Don't be dismissive of other people's preferences.  There is a great deal of distance between the opinion that SoD and level drain being annoying and wanting to be invincible.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

when a level drain occurs its not oh your forgetting stuff. the being that uses it is drawing your life force and unraveling who you are. but lola you always comment on oh thats dumb and shouldnt be included with very little on the solution side of things
when a level drain occurs its not oh your forgetting stuff. the being that uses it is drawing your life force and unraveling who you are. but lola you always comment on oh thats dumb and shouldnt be included with very little on the solution side of things


Admittedly, level drain is a rather poor way to represent that.  Your xp isn't your life force, it's experience.  Life force would be more akin to Con (in the physical vitality sense) or one of the mental attributes.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

It would be interesting to have an "aged" condition that imposes generic penalties regardless of race, abstracting how old the PCs actually get. But that's a very specific mechanic for a very limited effect.
Instead, powers that age might impose other conditions and penalties (such as being slower and weaker) under the auspices of being "aged". As long as the character is "unnaturally aged" they suffer the negative effects. Certain races could be immune, such as elves, listed in the power.

Ghosts and the like might have "aging touch" as optional powers, with some wearing off after a certain amount of time and others being permanent. It can then offer solutions such as certain spells, magic items, or mystic places.
Ghosts should be customizable. You need to be able to make ghosts unique and they should have a suite of optional powers. And by making something like "aging touch" optional, GMs get to choose how much they want it to impact their game and response to the wishes of their players and the type of game expected. 

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when a level drain occurs its not oh your forgetting stuff. the being that uses it is drawing your life force and unraveling who you are. but lola you always comment on oh thats dumb and shouldnt be included with very little on the solution side of things



If you lose a level, you lose skill and combat abilities, feats, spells ... so, yes, you forgot stuff.  I don't see any connection between 'loss of life force' and 'amnesia'.

I already gave my solution: Throw it out.  It's a terrible, unfun, annoying mechanic that makes no sense.
just because something dosent make sense to you dosent mean its bad, just because its unfun for you dosent mean it dosent have a place at the table, and just because something is annoying dosent mean it is for everyone. if you are going to rip apart the game and throw rules out you dont like anyway, why not include them for those that do want them
just because something dosent make sense to you dosent mean its bad, just because its unfun for you dosent mean it dosent have a place at the table, and just because something is annoying dosent mean it is for everyone. if you are going to rip apart the game and throw rules out you dont like anyway, why not include them for those that do want them


That's why I feel that making them options works the best.  It preserves the rules for those who want them, but it doesn't mess with the encounter designs of people who don't want them.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

i would be fine with that but most people on this site think that it shouldnt be included at all like the person who keeps saying the same thing and uses straw man alot
i would be fine with that but most people on this site think that it shouldnt be included at all like that bronie wierdo who keeps saying the same thing and uses straw man alot


Really?  Most people?  Where are the numbers to back that up?  I mean there are certainly people who may feel that way, just like there may be people who feel that SoD and level drain have to be included or people aren't playing right, but I can't really say either side has enough posters to count as "most people."

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

i would be fine with that but most people on this site think that it shouldnt be included at all like that bronie wierdo who keeps saying the same thing and uses straw man alot



Nice Ad Hominem attack.

Done with you now.
good im fine with that my tears are already dry
Please, let's stay constructive and on topic and avoid ad hominem, shall we?

I like the idea of a generic "aged" condition, and I don't think it's much more specific than e.g. being "paralized". Thing is, while it definitely works as a ability-related descriptor, as well as a general penalty for playing an "old" character, it doesn't adress standard "magical aging" (like the possible drawback of the Potion of Longevity, which I also suggested as a potential penalty for casting permament Wishes).
Please, let's stay constructive and on topic and avoid ad hominem, shall we?

Never happen.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Re: Level drain.

In my opinion attacks should read "Energy drain: The attack deals an additional 3d6 HP damage. Con save negates, DC 17." In the appendix there would be an optional rule "Energy Drain: Energy drain attacks cause PCs to lose levels rather than take HP damage. They lose one negative level per damage die rolled. This can be regained through the spell Restoration, limited wish, wish, or by undergoing an important quest for a deity."

I like the idea of a generic "aged" condition, and I don't think it's much more specific than e.g. being "paralized". Thing is, while it definitely works as a ability-related descriptor, as well as a general penalty for playing an "old" character, it doesn't adress standard "magical aging" (like the possible drawback of the Potion of Longevity, which I also suggested as a potential penalty for casting permament Wishes).

IMO it should be an optional flavour rule that DMs can use if they so desire. It should NOT  be part of the balancing factor in determining the benefits of the spell. For example you could have a sidebar that says"An optional rule for wish is to cause the caster to age X number of years. This can be in place of losing the ability to cast spells."

Having the aging factor is (IMO) crucial to explain why powerful wizards don't just spam wish all year long to make themselves the ultimate ruler over everyone. Mwahahaha. However that doesn't come into play for PCs. The longest a campaign is likely to run is 5 ig years. And that's a long and epic campaign. Many of them finish within 12 ig months. As such, having the age factor exist to stop PCs from spamming it is a non-issue.

Also does anyone else feel like the manifestation of a wish spell should be a devil appearing in front of you with a contract for you to sign? The whole "be careful what you wish for" angle just screams Asmodeus to me. And it's not a cleric spell. It's a wizard only spell. Done! In my campaigns wish spells summon devils who force you to sign the contract. That should keep the PCs wary of casting it too many times. "What do you get out of this exactly?" "Oh well. Upon your death you'll be subjected to voluntary servitude for a number of years equal to your natural lifespan adjusted for inflation at the rate of 1.75% p.a. subject to clause i subsection j if you just read over here..." (flips through several dozen pages to point out the relevant clause which has been written in incomprehensible legalese."

Also can you imagine the look upon the PCs face when they cast wish and a devil appears and says "Oh I'm sorry. Your soul is actually worthless to us. You see your father already promised the soul of his firstborn to us in return for all of the riches your family has." That can start a whole series of quests where the PCs have to regain the soul of their comrade before he dies! Devil assassins start chasing the PCs as they try to kill the person so as to stop him from regaining his soul and also to allow him to start serving Asmodeus.

Oh! You can also have satanic cults who worship Asmodeus. He doesn't grant them spells or eternal life. But if they give him enough souls then he grants them the benefit of a wish spell. Think of it as a pyramid scheme but with black robes and drunken orgies (because lets be honest. Cults always need drunken orgies). It'd go something like "look you buy in with your soul. You join our club, you get influence and power. If you bring in 20 more recruits then you get a wish spell and you can wish to get your soul back. Then if you bring in another 20 recruits you can get a second wish spell and then you can wish for anything you like. How many cousins do you have? 10? Look! You're already halfway to getting your first wish spell. And you're young. You'll have PLENTY of time to recruit people. It's easy! Now just sign this contract here."
The problem I have with aging or level draining is they are permanent in previous editions, unless magic was used to recover. This often dragged the party down, and often forced a break in the story line as the characters immediate focus is to restore themselves. There is no good solution for characters changing their minds in the middle of an adventure, so it is up to the DM to use those type of effects wisely.

The other thing I did not like was the bookkeeping for level draining, and I am more satisfied with the hit point loss mechanism. I agree aging can be implemented as a condition and would have a couple different stages like child, old, or elder. But instead of modifying attributes, there would be interesting and more subtle affects for each one.
I used to be a big fan of level drain.  However, over time, I have come to realize that it is - in fact - not a great mechanic.  To be honest - I actually like the current version (reducing max hit points).  It is actually more deadly (as my players found out after the Dread Wraith criticalled one of them and he failed his save), so it serves the purpose nicely (it makes certain creatures far more 'scary' than they would be if all they did was straight damage) without the metagame hassles of changing the character's level.


Aging - if handled similarly - also deserves a place in the game.  But I wouldn't go with incremental aging.  Instead I would go with 'aged' as an effect/ condition.   If something 'ages' you - it does it all at once.  One moment you are young, hale and hearty - and the next you are old and decrepit.   From the perspective of a literary trope - can you think of an instance where the protagonist was aged that didn't jump him an age category?  Characters go from 'kid' to 'adult' or 'adult' to 'ancient', not from 'adult' to 'slightly older adult'.


Incremental age increases are pointless waste of time and bookkeeping.  If you are going to be aged by something - it should make you aged.  And that should then impose penalties.

Note:  This also gets around the fact that a ten year jump is potentially meaningful to humans, but pretty much irrelevant to any other race.  By making 'aged' a category, you sidestep the fact that different races age at different paces.

Carl
In that respect you could have two categories to cover touched by a ghost or fountain of youth. So you would have 'aged' and there would need to be an equivalent for literally becoming a kid.

There may need to be a category for adding on years, i.e. "longevity'.

I already gave my solution: Throw it out.  It's a terrible, unfun, annoying mechanic



Speak for yourself.
And concerning tracking resources and aging, if you want to turn your RPG game into a pseudo video-game of hack and slash where all you do is roll damage from this attack or that spell until you "clear the dungeon" of monsters... that's perfectly fine if that's how your group likes to play tabletop.
But I'd rather see D&D made like the real tabletop RPG it has always been.
If you don't like those rules you simply house-rule them out of your game. Easy job. But not all of us want to see our D&D turned into Diablo.


So I say yes to:
1-Tracking resources like food and water.
Because survival is part of the game. And not all challenges should be about how many hit points a monster has or how much damage he does.

2-Character aging (not so much concerning magical effects but simply keeping track of the years passed in the campaign).
Because it makes a character feel more human (or human-like if you're another humanoid race) and real. And it's very cool to see your character start out in his teens at level 1 and be around his forties when he's of higher level, and see how that person has spent his life in that setting, how he has influenced the world, how to world influenced him and made him what he became, what he has accomplished... meaning, seeing in a character the changes we all experience in life as we grow, giving the character a lot more depth, and a great lifetime story.

3-Level drain, energy drain and other such effects.
Because of what I said in topic 1, that not all challenges should be set by HP/damage, and because such abilities are perfect for certain monster concepts, like some types of undead.
And because it's those abilities that, more than anything, make a player feel that chill in his spine and fear for his character when he encounters a monster... instead of simply saying "whatever, I have enough HP, just keep 'em coming."
Encounters with such creatures are always memorable in campaigns. Yet your DM shouldn't be including creatures like that all the time in the game like they were orcs or kobolds, or else the players would just feel underwhelmed. They're for those special moments.
Also, there should also be a way in game to reverse these effects, but they shouldn't be easily accessible like simply casting a restoration, or else it kinda defeats the purpose of having something your players would be terrified to face.


And I would say no to:
1- The wish spell.
Kinda "meh" to have a spell that can do anything and practically renders all other spells obsolete.
I would maybe use Wish as part of an artifact or something very very rare like that, and even then giving it a slight possibility of misfiring or something of the sort. But as a spell you can use almost at will... nah.

That said, I don't mind at all the spell being left as core since it's always been there and it's one of those iconic things in D&D.
Like I said, it's a simple thing to house-rule it out of my games. Which is what I've always done not only with Wish but some other spells like Fly as well.

This very, very quickly boils down to "some people like this and some people don't".

At best, it should be an optional rule, meaning a module, meaning it shouldn't really be put into the core game.

IMHO, they should have a module "For people that walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill, both ways". All it does is change things to be as similar to 2e as possible, including any and all rules they can cram into there. Skills for thief only, racial-based level caps (with notes that this is not actually meant to be used), level drain, and even a "GRIMNESS!" (exclamation mark required) die where every time you open a door, you roll the die - get a skull, and your character dies! Comes with optional cane and pre-recorded message of "Them darn kids! Get off my lawn!".

Maybe then people will stop trying to shove 2e mechanics on the rest of the game and claiming that you're playing it wrong if you don't like it.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

This very, very quickly boils down to "some people like this and some people don't".

At best, it should be an optional rule, meaning a module, meaning it shouldn't really be put into the core game.

IMHO, they should have a module "For people that walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill, both ways". All it does is change things to be as similar to 2e as possible, including any and all rules they can cram into there. Skills for thief only, racial-based level caps (with notes that this is not actually meant to be used), level drain, and even a "GRIMNESS!" (exclamation mark required) die where every time you open a door, you roll the die - get a skull, and your character dies! Comes with optional cane and pre-recorded message of "Them darn kids! Get off my lawn!".

Maybe then people will stop trying to shove 2e mechanics on the rest of the game and claiming that you're playing it wrong if you don't like it.



Pretty funny, but there is something to be said about having an old-school, treacherous module for the game. Tomb of Horrors remake for 4th took a step in that direction with it's optional rules. Thing is some people cannot feel comfortable modifying without the modifications being offical endorsed. It's an odd mindset, but it's apparently very real and powerful.
IMHO, they should have a module "For people that walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill, both ways". All it does is change things to be as similar to 2e as possible, including any and all rules they can cram into there. Skills for thief only, racial-based level caps (with notes that this is not actually meant to be used), level drain, and even a "GRIMNESS!" (exclamation mark required) die where every time you open a door, you roll the die - get a skull, and your character dies! Comes with optional cane and pre-recorded message of "Them darn kids! Get off my lawn!".

Wow. Could you have crammed in any other dismissive sentiments into this post? Because it looks like it's pretty well damn near impossible.

Who died and made you the purveyor of what is and isn't fun to have in an RPG game?

Maybe then people will stop trying to shove 2e mechanics on the rest of the game and claiming that you're playing it wrong if you don't like it.

Most people in this thread have been amenable to making the more controversial elements optional. I don't know the mere idea that some people enjoyed those rules you declare shouldn't belong in any RPG offends you so much. But dude. Take a chill pill.
This very, very quickly boils down to "some people like this and some people don't".

At best, it should be an optional rule, meaning a module, meaning it shouldn't really be put into the core game.

IMHO, they should have a module "For people that walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill, both ways". All it does is change things to be as similar to 2e as possible, including any and all rules they can cram into there. Skills for thief only, racial-based level caps (with notes that this is not actually meant to be used), level drain, and even a "GRIMNESS!" (exclamation mark required) die where every time you open a door, you roll the die - get a skull, and your character dies! Comes with optional cane and pre-recorded message of "Them darn kids! Get off my lawn!".

Maybe then people will stop trying to shove 2e mechanics on the rest of the game and claiming that you're playing it wrong if you don't like it.


Well, if you don't like that style of game, I'm sure we can hook you up with an alternative:
www.d20monkey.com/2011/03/04/rated-e-for...

;)

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

There is always the groaning spirit and death saving throw to discuss.
I dont think level is a good measure of life force either... its what degree of adversary you are capable of tangoing with.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Level Drain... Brain Damage and Heros becoming less heroic.... thats not very genre appropriate.

I still say D&D was influenced too much my war games, Fantasy Vietnam.... and teen slasher horror instead of heroic fantasy.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

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