Benchmarks for Practical Optimization

50 posts / 0 new
Last post
It's been quite some time since I last played and have forgotten much in that time.
I have the principles of what needs to be pushed up and how, but to what level?
In short, I can't remember what is an acceptable to hit mod, nor what are acceptable defences.

Could anyone please provide, or provide a link to a thread with the following benchmarks by level

To Hit vs. AC
To Hit vs. NAD
AC (not defender level, but enough to temporaily act in that capacity)
NAD (not defender level, but enough to temporaily act in that capacity) 

Any help appreciated 
While there are standard numbers to shoot for for these things, it's not good to just aim for those numbers and then call it a day.

Baseline expected compency assumes level+6 vs AC, level +4 vs NADs, Level+15 AC, and Level+12 to NADs, if I remember correctly. I'm actually pretty iffy on those numbers, so someone else will probably correct them, but they're somewhere generally close. Again, to baseline compentency, which is nowhere near being "good."

But it's better phrased:

To Hit: As high as you can get it, at almost any cost. No single other mathematical attribute of your character matters nearly so much. Fortunately, there's few enough possible ways to increase your to-hit that it will always leave plenty of build-space open for other things. Also fortunately, there's extremely few choices that increase your accuracy only against a specific defense. 

AC: As long as you're in heavy armor with a shield bonus or in light armor with a starting 16+ in DEX or INT with intent to bump them at every opportunity (or another stat your class grants you towards AC), you've got this covered and don't need to worry about it at all.  

NADs: You likely won't have all 3 equal, and don't want to, as that would spread your stats far too evenly or your feats far too thin. In general, high reflex saves you only from damage, high fort saves you from things like slowed, weakened, ongoing damage, immobilization, restraint, grabs, and exceedingly rarely petrification. Will more frequently saves you from dazed, stunned, or dominated.  So Will is the most important NAD to boost, followed by Fort, with reflex kind of nice if you get it automatically but not worth pursuing beyond that.  Qualifying for Superior Will by Paragon is possible for any build, and recommended highly.
He pretty much covered it, although I think the baseline is level+5 vs AC and +3 vs NADs.
He pretty much covered it, although I think the baseline is level+5 vs AC and +3 vs NADs.



Those bonuses will mean you hit same level mobs on a roll of 9, but will take double digits on the d20 to hit higher level mobs than you.

It is generally accepted that you will fighting mobs 1-2 levels higher than you, so a bonus of 6 or 7 is really what most pc's should be looking for (meaning they hit most mobs they encounter on a roll of 9). 
Natually there will be fluctuations based on gear, and such, and really level+5 (or 3) is as low as you ever want to go. 
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
He pretty much covered it, although I think the baseline is level+5 vs AC and +3 vs NADs.



Those bonuses will mean you hit same level mobs on a roll of 9, but will take double digits on the d20 to hit higher level mobs than you.

It is generally accepted that you will fighting mobs 1-2 levels higher than you, so a bonus of 6 or 7 is really what most pc's should be looking for (meaning they hit most mobs they encounter on a roll of 9). 
Natually there will be fluctuations based on gear, and such, and really level+5 (or 3) is as low as you ever want to go. 



And even then, hitting on a 9 is missing too much for my tastes. I prefer to hit on a 5+, which is possible for most builds (though often only with combat advantage included), and a handful of the stand-outs can hit on a 2.
How do you manage that reliably on, say, a multiattack barbarian? And I don't mean by using activated boosts like Ironwrought, Heroic Effort, Insightful Riposte et al. I mean the real deal, consistent hits on 5 or higher. Those numbers appear suspect to me.

EDIT: Specifically the suspect part is 'how do I get that extra +2 to attack rolls consistently without sacrificing loads of damage and thus being suboptimal'. CA is easy enough to get.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Simple - a warforged artificer with GMW in a bag of holding counts as equipment right?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
How do you manage that reliably on, say, a multiattack barbarian? And I don't mean by using activated boosts like Ironwrought, Heroic Effort, Insightful Riposte et al. I mean the real deal, consistent hits on 5 or higher. Those numbers appear suspect to me.

EDIT: Specifically the suspect part is 'how do I get that extra +2 to attack rolls consistently without sacrificing loads of damage and thus being suboptimal'. CA is easy enough to get.



You get that level of accuracy on a multiattack barbarian by completely ignoring the fact that I said "most builds" and not "all builds," finding an example that clearly doesn't apply, and then attacking it.

You do that a lot. 

My bad, I should have been clearer in indicating that my preference for accuracy is entirely my own and rules out some perfectly optimal builds. I just hate missing.

That made me laugh way, way more than it should've.

But yeah, those figures kinda smell of shenanigans to me. I mean, let's put it this way - I'm playing this Warlord/Striker hybrid ATM, and he has a base attack bonus of +16 at level 10. That's exactly benchmark. He has Cunning Stalker so he should be capable of acquiring CA fairly reliably considering he's the only melee (our defender is elsewhere doing plot stuff), so that's +18. So far, so good. The thing is...where the heck am I gonna get that extra +2 from? Closest thing I got is Dragon's Tenacity for those early turns where I want to open up and really kill someone, but that isn't reliable when I'm not nuking one big target like an Elite or Solo, because I gotta move to score my kills. And even so, it has tradeoffs - that minor action is competing for my Rousing and Inspiring Word, which is going to be pretty important later on 'cause I'll be toting Tactician's Word to enable someone else to take action. So I really want to know where that elusive 'hit on fives' is without relying on very specific timing and a good situation.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
How do you manage that reliably on, say, a multiattack barbarian? And I don't mean by using activated boosts like Ironwrought, Heroic Effort, Insightful Riposte et al. I mean the real deal, consistent hits on 5 or higher. Those numbers appear suspect to me.

EDIT: Specifically the suspect part is 'how do I get that extra +2 to attack rolls consistently without sacrificing loads of damage and thus being suboptimal'. CA is easy enough to get.



You get that level of accuracy on a multiattack barbarian by completely ignoring the fact that I said "most builds" and not "all builds," finding an example that clearly doesn't apply, and then attacking it.

You do that a lot. 

My bad, I should have been clearer in indicating that my preference for accuracy is entirely my own and rules out some perfectly optimal builds. I just hate missing.




Alright then. Same thing again, though - how do I pull this off on a Ranger, for instance? I'm not seeing what else I can do to crank Fenix's attack bonus up before Kensei and Destined Scion give me their boosts, and without those two I'm not hitting that level either. Saying 'you should be hitting on 5s' is misleading unless we're talking about late epic builds AFAICT.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
That made me laugh way, way more than it should've.

But yeah, those figures kinda smell of shenanigans to me. I mean, let's put it this way - I'm playing this Warlord/Striker hybrid ATM, and he has a base attack bonus of +16 at level 10. That's exactly benchmark. He has Cunning Stalker so he should be capable of acquiring CA fairly reliably considering he's the only melee (our defender is elsewhere doing plot stuff), so that's +18. So far, so good. The thing is...where the heck am I gonna get that extra +2 from? Closest thing I got is Dragon's Tenacity for those early turns where I want to open up and really kill someone, but that isn't reliable when I'm not nuking one big target like an Elite or Solo, because I gotta move to score my kills. And even so, it has tradeoffs - that minor action is competing for my Rousing and Inspiring Word, which is going to be pretty important later on 'cause I'll be toting Tactician's Word to enable someone else to take action. So I really want to know where that elusive 'hit on fives' is without relying on very specific timing and a good situation.



Let's see...
+5 level, +5 stat, +1 Feat, +1 Nimble Blade, +2 Enhancement, +3 Prof, +2 CA. Need an additional +1. Rogue or Fighter +1 to hit would make it work.
Citation needed on where you're getting those stats and making them viable, because it costs way too many things to be worthwhile. Off the top of my head...

-One or two points of partywide init via Combat Leader.
-You have to take light blades - and have high DEX, so let's siphon even more from INT to make Tactician's Word and Combat Leader worthless (and consequently Tactician's Presence too, even less attack bonuses to make the party more efficient). Technically also Reorient The Axis and stuff too, if we're going to care about it, depends. Also sacrificing damage potentially, depends on the build - for example if you can reliably get proning you lose headsman's chop, but this is situational.
-You have an even worse feat progression than most builds do. Case in point, look at Fenix. It doesn't get Nimble Blade until 28 because it cannot afford to. It's already too glassy to delay purchasing some defensive feats longer than it does (and it's a long, long time).

Like...this just isn't practical, that I can see. Those values aren't achievable by the vast majority of builds. By the same token, I would like to see the straight Taclord that could swing them reliably (keyword: Reliably). Or heck, the Avenger, they're precise but they don't have that much raw hitchance.

EDIT: Darn, got ninja'd by an edit that lowered the stat bonus from 'base 18 before racial bonus' to 'base 16'. This kinda highlights the point I was making though. I was using an example of a Warlord|Striker and you ran out of numbers before hitting the target value MWaO. Saying 'Hit on 5s or bust' is some really silly stuff.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
You know as well as I do what options exist for increasing accuracy. Without knowing your full build there's no way I could point to anything specific beyond the immediately obvious (stat allocation, proficiency bonus, I won't insult you by asking if you took expertise), but do you qualify for nimble blade? Does your leader often hand out bonuses or your controller hand out penalties? Can you target a NAD with a weapon power, or predict which of your targets is likely easiest to hit? Because despite the general monster defense guidelines, they vary quite a bit.

More than likely you aren't really asking a serious question, but rather trying to shame me into admitting I pulled the 5 out of my ass. Which is true, but I absolutely stack things in favor of hitting as much as I can, and don't really ever consider my characters in a vacuum, because they aren't. Claiming to hit on 5s sometimes is no more outlandish than the hunter, seeker, or thief guides claiming that they can be built to hit on a 2. Neither claim is true in a vacuum, both are pretty common (but not guaranteed!) in actual play.

Better?
No, claiming to hit on 5 by yourselfreliably is outlandish. You did not mention that you were counting in party bonuses and teamwork there - and since pretty much nobody I know except myself does, I assumed you weren't. I called you out because I wanted to see the math proof showing that a Warlord, Shaman, Barbarian, Warden, whatever you like can hit on 5s as easily as that. Some builds can do this. To say most and that it is 'benchmark' is a ridiculous claim unless you can show me how it's done. I mean, everybody hits on 2s with a pocket warlord, but that doesn't mean all campaigns will have one, much though it disappoints me. This is the exact same thing as how, when I mentioned Headsman's Chop in my above reply to MWaO, it was prefaced with 'but this is situational and not reliable'. You can't assume your party will cover your ass like that, because it is highly possible they won't.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
DIT: Darn, got ninja'd by an edit that lowered the stat bonus from 'base 18 before racial bonus' to 'base 16'. This kinda highlights the point I was making though. I was using an example of a Warlord|Striker and you ran out of numbers before hitting the target value MWaO. Saying 'Hit on 5s or bust' is some really silly stuff.



Okay, let's try this again...LFR-style

Human Thaneborn Barbarian|Cleric 22 Str/16 Cha/11 Con
+5 level
+6 stat
+3 weapon(can be auto-found at 9th level for Magic Sword +3)
+1 Expertise feat
+3 Prof weapon(Fullblade)
+2 CA(Cunning Stalker)

That's +20.

And...
Use one of 3 minor action cleric encounter Healing power on self for +2 to hit for 2 rounds as a minor.
Human +4 to hit on didn't like outcome of roll
Bloody a target and get +3 to next attack against that target
Kill a target and every enemy nearby gets their defenses reduced by 2.

Still have two three feats for Resourceful Leader and Superior Will...(and something else for being human)

I left that comment out of my post that was actually about benchmarks *in any way* for precisely that reason.

I find the benchmarks which i actually listed, in my first response to be the bare minimum that functions in this system without leading to frustration.

Hitting on a 5 is not and was never implied to be a benchmark, regardless of how common it can be with a properly constructed party.
DIT: Darn, got ninja'd by an edit that lowered the stat bonus from 'base 18 before racial bonus' to 'base 16'. This kinda highlights the point I was making though. I was using an example of a Warlord|Striker and you ran out of numbers before hitting the target value MWaO. Saying 'Hit on 5s or bust' is some really silly stuff.



Okay, let's try this again...LFR-style

Human Thaneborn Barbarian|Cleric 22 Str/16 Cha/11 Con
+5 level
+6 stat
+3 weapon(can be auto-found at 9th level for Magic Sword +3)
+1 Expertise feat
+3 Prof weapon(Fullblade)
+2 CA(Cunning Stalker)

That's +20.

And...
Use one of 3 minor action cleric encounter Healing power on self for +2 to hit for 2 rounds as a minor.
Human +4 to hit on didn't like outcome of roll
Bloody a target and get +3 to next attack against that target
Kill a target and every enemy nearby gets their defenses reduced by 2.

Still have two three feats for Resourceful Leader and Superior Will...(and something else for being human)




Yeah, this is more or less how it plays out in practice. It's much of the same with the Strikerlord I used as my first example. The key here is to be honest and say that you're not getting that attack bonus without using actions and powers on it. That's the part that got to me, because getting to those values on raw to-hit is basically impossible to achieve.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
DIT: Darn, got ninja'd by an edit that lowered the stat bonus from 'base 18 before racial bonus' to 'base 16'. This kinda highlights the point I was making though. I was using an example of a Warlord|Striker and you ran out of numbers before hitting the target value MWaO. Saying 'Hit on 5s or bust' is some really silly stuff.



Okay, let's try this again...LFR-style

Human Thaneborn Barbarian|Cleric 22 Str/16 Cha/11 Con
+5 level
+6 stat
+3 weapon(can be auto-found at 9th level for Magic Sword +3)
+1 Expertise feat
+3 Prof weapon(Fullblade)
+2 CA(Cunning Stalker)

That's +20.

And...
Use one of 3 minor action cleric encounter Healing power on self for +2 to hit for 2 rounds as a minor.
Human +4 to hit on didn't like outcome of roll
Bloody a target and get +3 to next attack against that target
Kill a target and every enemy nearby gets their defenses reduced by 2.

Still have two three feats for Resourceful Leader and Superior Will...(and something else for being human)




Yeah, this is more or less how it plays out in practice. It's much of the same with the Strikerlord I used as my first example. The key here is to be honest and say that you're not getting that attack bonus without using actions and powers on it. That's the part that got to me, because getting to those values on raw to-hit is basically impossible to achieve.



Hmm? I got to the numbers honestly. Then I got extras
You picked a vanilla magic weapon, which equals a colossal drop in damage from an actual damage-dealing choice (AKA anything elemental). Losing something like +8 damage or so starting at the very next level if not right then and there is a huge hit to your ability to properly peace out targets, so it isn't really a feasible choice.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
You picked a vanilla magic weapon, which equals a colossal drop in damage from an actual damage-dealing choice (AKA anything elemental). Losing something like +8 damage or so starting at the very next level if not right then and there is a huge hit to your ability to properly peace out targets, so it isn't really a feasible choice.



At 10th level, assuming you can't just pick an 11th level item of your choice(which is generally true for LFR), it represents a -1 damage for +1 to-hit. Not a big deal. You do need to remember you're basically making a big limitation by picking 10th level, which for a frost wielder is a natural bad point.

Now if we're talking 14th, you get the following with a Frost Weapon +3 at that point:
+7 level
+7 stat
+3 enhancement
+2 Expertise feat
+3 Prof weapon(Fullblade)
+2 CA(Cunning Stalker)

Or +24 from 4 more levels, which is exactly where we want to be...
This thread is full of people cherrypicking levels to demonstrate the point they want to make, you're all failures at the scientific method.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I'm playing a Warlock|Warlord at the moment, level 5.  Here's his to-hit:

+5 (cha mod) + 2 (1/2 lvl) + 3 (prof - rapier) + 1 (enh) + 1 (feat) + 1 (Infernal Prince + Blazing Arc Ki Focus).

That's +13 base at level 5, and he can still charge for another +1, flank for another +2, and sometimes both.  That's not mentioning that Hellfire Blood is still out there for him.  He does sacrafice some damage to do this (no Mindbite Scorn yet), but I also hate missing.

Fast forward to lvl 10 and he's got +6 (cha mod) + 5 (1/2 lvl) + 3 (prof - rapier) + 2 (enh) + 1 (feat) + 1 (Infernal Prince + Blazing Arc Ki Focus). 

+18 base.  Again, charging or CA gets him hitting on ~5.

In paragon he'll be a Battlelord of Kord, letting him IW himself for +2 to hit (and +CHA to damage) for two turns, and Deft Blade will give him affectively another +2, so his high accuracy can be maintained.


EDIT: TL;DR - It is possible on a Warlord|Striker, and you're not giving up that much damage doing it.
^ lol You're not a |Warlord, you're a |Lazylord.

Anyway
Level +6 to hit with a fairly reliably way of having CA to make it +8
Level +14 AC +16 in best NAD and +8 in worst NAD for Ranged
Level +16 AC +16 in best NAD and +10 in worst NAD for Melee
Level +18 AC +16 in bets NAD and +12 in worst NAD for Defenders.

Damage is more confusing because the only measurable metric across the roles is "Enemy Actions Removed", but a Striker should be able to use At-Will+Encounter Powers and an AP to kill a Standard creature in one round and then kill another standard on their own in 2 rounds; while everyone else should be contributing about Half of that each. This gives you the stereotypical 2-3 round combat for 5 PCs.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
You picked a vanilla magic weapon, which equals a colossal drop in damage from an actual damage-dealing choice (AKA anything elemental). Losing something like +8 damage or so starting at the very next level if not right then and there is a huge hit to your ability to properly peace out targets, so it isn't really a feasible choice.



At 10th level, assuming you can't just pick an 11th level item of your choice(which is generally true for LFR), it represents a -1 damage for +1 to-hit. Not a big deal. You do need to remember you're basically making a big limitation by picking 10th level, which for a frost wielder is a natural bad point.

Now if we're talking 14th, you get the following with a Frost Weapon +3 at that point:
+7 level
+7 stat
+3 enhancement
+2 Expertise feat
+3 Prof weapon(Fullblade)
+2 CA(Cunning Stalker)

Or +24 from 4 more levels, which is exactly where we want to be...



I was thinking more Firewind Blade right then and there, or Lightning Weapon after a level. I also don't think that giving up +3 damage (if frosty) at level 10 is a good deal, much less all the gains that follow over the next two levels.

---

@Pete5528: Really? As if...just by picking a Blazing Arc Ki Focus you give up a minimum of +3 damage (Firewind Blade), which grows exponentially if you factor in theme (cannot take Sarifal Feywarden for instance) or PP (is not a Morninglord, not a Winterfury). Heck, it loses like crazy against vanilla Frost too. Also, if you have a +6 CHA your AC is gonna be beyond sorry unless you invest in WIS (which is...dubious, at best. I know of a Seeker build that does it but it's hella weird and improves itself via Luckbringer or whatever the D364 PP is), which screws your NADs. It's just a lose-lose kinda thing.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />@Pete5528: Really? As if...just by picking a Blazing Arc Ki Focus you give up a minimum of +3 damage (Firewind Blade), which grows exponentially if you factor in theme (cannot take Sarifal Feywarden for instance) or PP (is not a Morninglord, not a Winterfury). Heck, it loses like crazy against vanilla Frost too. Also, if you have a +6 CHA your AC is gonna be beyond sorry unless you invest in WIS (which is...dubious, at best. I know of a Seeker build that does it but it's hella weird and improves itself via Luckbringer or whatever the D364 PP is), which screws your NADs. It's just a lose-lose kinda thing.



Firewind Blade doesn't give you any extra damage unless you're dealing fire damage already.  You don't lose anything to Frost because you Twofold Pact for Elemental, which lets you hand out 10 vuln with your curse.  You HT for Warlord Armor Proficiency which gives you Chain + Light Sheild.  Will is high, Ref is okay, Fort gets tanked, but that's life.  You can eventually patch that up with Dispater's Iron Disciple + Superior Will for auto-saves against daze and stun at the start of your turn, anyway. 

Optimizing an at-will that isn't Twin Strike is dumb, yeah.  But you're taking powers like Vengeance is Mine, Touch of Command, Death From Two Sides, which utilize your at-will while giving you and your ally's out of turn attacks.  It's not top of the line, but it's fine.
Elemental stacks with Frost, so you *always* lose to frost.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Elemental stacks with Frost, so you *always* lose to frost.



Well, you could Admixture ES to deal fire damage and then pick up a Firewind Blade.  If you're talking just a standard action ES, then that will come out ahead of frost, assuming you go to the lengths to make sure the vuln you're handing out is fire.  Then tack on Hellfire Heart for another free 19 damage on the first attack.

And if you'd rather go frost, it's not that hard to switch gears at paragon.  You can retrain Infernal Prince to something else once you ditch fire damage for cold.

None of this is on topic.

EDIT: Since none of this is on topic anyway, you have to MC Monk or Executioner to get the ki focus proficiency.  If you go Monk, you get Desert Wind Flurry of Blows 1/enc, another independent source of fire damage based on CHA, which would give you an additional no-action 18 fire damage on your first turn.  I'm stopping now, because I know this will never be competetive with real striker numbers.
^ lol You're not a |Warlord, you're a |Lazylord.

Anyway
Level +6 to hit with a fairly reliably way of having CA to make it +8
Level +14 AC +16 in best NAD and +8 in worst NAD for Ranged
Level +16 AC +16 in best NAD and +10 in worst NAD for Melee
Level +18 AC +16 in bets NAD and +12 in worst NAD for Defenders.

Damage is more confusing because the only measurable metric across the roles is "Enemy Actions Removed", but a Striker should be able to use At-Will+Encounter Powers and an AP to kill a Standard creature in one round and then kill another standard on their own in 2 rounds; while everyone else should be contributing about Half of that each. This gives you the stereotypical 2-3 round combat for 5 PCs.




What about for people targeting things besides AC? Will and/or Reflex in particular. Is +6 still the base for them or is it slightly lower? 

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />@Pete5528: Really? As if...just by picking a Blazing Arc Ki Focus you give up a minimum of +3 damage (Firewind Blade), which grows exponentially if you factor in theme (cannot take Sarifal Feywarden for instance) or PP (is not a Morninglord, not a Winterfury). Heck, it loses like crazy against vanilla Frost too. Also, if you have a +6 CHA your AC is gonna be beyond sorry unless you invest in WIS (which is...dubious, at best. I know of a Seeker build that does it but it's hella weird and improves itself via Luckbringer or whatever the D364 PP is), which screws your NADs. It's just a lose-lose kinda thing.



Firewind Blade doesn't give you any extra damage unless you're dealing fire damage already.  You don't lose anything to Frost because you Twofold Pact for Elemental, which lets you hand out 10 vuln with your curse.  You HT for Warlord Armor Proficiency which gives you Chain + Light Sheild.  Will is high, Ref is okay, Fort gets tanked, but that's life.  You can eventually patch that up with Dispater's Iron Disciple + Superior Will for auto-saves against daze and stun at the start of your turn, anyway. 

Optimizing an at-will that isn't Twin Strike is dumb, yeah.  But you're taking powers like Vengeance is Mine, Touch of Command, Death From Two Sides, which utilize your at-will while giving you and your ally's out of turn attacks.  It's not top of the line, but it's fine.



Three guesses what Warlock's Gloves let you do?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Monster NADS are on average 2 less than their AC.  So if +6 is hitting their AC, +4 will generally hit their NAD.  Again, that's on average.  There will be disparity depending on the type of monster.
My understanding is that for Firewind to work the attack has to have the fire keyword when you hit.  If you're talking about Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, you don't decide to add your curse damage until after the damage roll.  I'm skeptical that it meshes.
It would still convey the Fire keyword - the sketchy part comes from trying to apply 'fire' bonuses to hit to the power (that shouldn't work). Should work just fine for the purposes of Firewind Blade.
Averaging accuracy over the levels, melee weapon users get a to-hit bonus of level+8.3 vs AC as their benchmark. This means they hit on a 7 against enemies of their level, which is very acceptable.

Numbers
I arrived at that number by assuming:
- 18 attack stat
- +3 proficiency weapon
- combat advantage
- +1/2 level
- Expertise at levels 1, 11 and 21
- Upgraded weapon at levels 2, 6, 12, 17, 22, and 27 (12 is where I believe you can reliably get a Frost weapon)
- main stat bump every possible level
- ED that pumps the main stat.

Easy ways to increase accuracy even more are:

- Take a 20 in the attack stat
- use a light blade for Nimble Blade
- charge


Implement users have it rougher. They get a to-hit bonus of level+5.2 vs NAD as their benchmark. This means they hit enemies of their level on a 8, which is worse than weapon users but still ok.

Numbers
I arrived at that number by assuming:
- 18 attack stat
- combat advantage half the time (+1 instead of a +2 bonus) from level 4 on, when they can take a feat like Tome Expertise or Distant Advantage that gives them CA
- +1/2 level
- Expertise at levels 1, 11 and 21
- Superior Implement Training at level 2
- Upgraded implements at levels 2, 6, 12, 17, 22, and 27
- main stat bump every possible level
- ED that pumps the main stat.

There is only one easy way to increase accuracy even more, which is a 20 in the attack stat. But most implement users have the option of targetting different NADs, so if they're clever they can use this for another +1 accuracy bump.
Once again reminding us all why the avenger is awesome: easily achievable 90+% accuracy.



Also reminding us why MC avenger is excellent for something like a barbarian nova.
Also, just to point out, Destined Scion adds +1 to hit and +2 to your primary attack stat. Making things a lot easier in Epic.
Yeah, my fighter / destined scion was hitting on 2s, so I took power attack. Which is good cause my damage was lagging behind. (L26 = 9 stat, 6 enh, 3 feat, 1 class, 1 ed, 2 ca, 13 lvl, +3 prof, +1 pow = +39)
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Many thanks.
I noted Cunning Stalker Mentioned a few times.
Could someone cite the source please? 
Many thanks.
I noted Cunning Stalker Mentioned a few times.
Could someone cite the source please? 



never mind, found it
He pretty much covered it, although I think the baseline is level+5 vs AC and +3 vs NADs.



Those bonuses will mean you hit same level mobs on a roll of 9, but will take double digits on the d20 to hit higher level mobs than you.

It is generally accepted that you will fighting mobs 1-2 levels higher than you, so a bonus of 6 or 7 is really what most pc's should be looking for (meaning they hit most mobs they encounter on a roll of 9). 
Natually there will be fluctuations based on gear, and such, and really level+5 (or 3) is as low as you ever want to go. 

I guess let me rephrase: designer baseline is +5 and +3. You see this in all kinds of game elements from FBT to alchemy items to monster hit bonuses. Of course we will endorse getting it higher, but that's baseline whether it "seems" good enough or not.
A couple formulas I always run in my head when making characters or custon creatures as the DM:


I want to hit atleast 70% of the time

I want 50% of melee attacks to miss me (60% + as melee). I avoid shamans......



Basic Formulas (DM Side)

Attack Rating: Level + 5
Monster AC : Level +14
Monster NAD: Level + 12
Monster Life:  Level * 8 +24
Monster Damage: ?????


I then take those numbers to calculate the defensive and accuracy goals for my characters:


Damage Formula's pulledfrom the DPR Kings thread. 
Striker damage: (Level x 2)+2 Bare minumum    .  Aim for (Level x3) +3.
Non Striker damage: (Level x 1) + 2




        

                  
Meh. We don't fight normal monsters either. "You can do better, so you must do better."




If your mid paragon battles don't end up being kinda like this, you ain't trying hard enough.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Sign In to post comments