Creating the most optimal Level 9 dwarf with a Crossbow

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One of my player's has asked me what the best class he can play as his dwarven cross bow wielder, this can be using as an impliment or as a weapon.

My first thoughts were ranger. But he want it to be as optimal as possible. Therefore must have a racial bonus to prime stat.

All I have come up with so far is some form of Shaman or Druid that uses a Ki focused Crossbow (via a multicalss)

But I'm sure there must be something better.

Thanks in advance
The only two classes that use wisdom as their prime stat and can use ranged weapon powers are seeker or cleric.  I would guess seeker is your least worst choice of the two since building a cleric around just weapon wisdom ranged powers is a bad idea.  Its ok if you pick implement powers as well and use a ki focus or something.

Your best bet would be to do a hybrid of some sort since many of the best crossbow builds are artificer and it can use wisdom as a secondary stat.  Or else do a ki focus with a wisdom implement build like shaman, cleric, or something.

A hybrid artificer/shaman or artificer/warlord with a crossbow works very well.
Archer Warlord wouldn't be a bad choice - Dwarves have some nice WIS-lord feats, and the archerlord isn't terrible.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
What's the rest of the party? Artificer with sup. xbow, buy an 18 in ing, racial bonus to con and wis.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

You could actually do Cleric|Seeker, although you'll need to figure out what direction you really want to take that build.

Seriously, I think it'd be fine with ranger anyway since the archer build is Dex/Wis. Just start with a pre-racial 18. I mean, you could argue that dwarf is not the most optimal race for ranger, but ranger just ends up being the most optimal striker class regardless of race anyway.
The rest of the party is yet to be decided, so no real help there. I will show him the findings tomorrow night and let u know the conclusion, but any more advice before then it still helpful
My first thoughts were ranger. But he want it to be as optimal as possible. Therefore must have a racial bonus to prime stat.
Thanks in advance

In this case it's probably more optimal to pay the extra points and play a good class rather than force him to be a seeker or something. Stat bonus is nice, but it doesn't trump everything.
My first thoughts were ranger. But he want it to be as optimal as possible. Therefore must have a racial bonus to prime stat.
Thanks in advance

In this case it's probably more optimal to pay the extra points and play a good class rather than force him to be a seeker or something. Stat bonus is nice, but it doesn't trump everything.


18(dex)16(wis)13(con) Superior Crossbow Ranger. Mobility isn't really going to be an issue and Dwarf give some survivability.
Some other options... Play revenant dwarf, refluff as being touched by death or some such if the fluff bothers you, and call it a day. Alternatively, play a changeling, always look like a dwarf, which opens up Artificer as a decent crossbow option if you really want max Int.
Hybrid Ranger|Seekers are fun Seekers have at least one good option of each kind of power per tier, so you'll never struggle too hard with power selection. You keep ranger-like damage via twin strike spamming but gain some neat control effects for when they're just as useful. Dex/Wis is all you need. Arrange points so they're the same value (and an even number), put extra points wherever you feel they will be most useful to shore up fort, give you another surge, or meet a MC feat prerequisite.
I'd go Ranger. The difference between 18 and 20 dex is definitely there, but if you're optimized in every other way, you'll do reasonably well. I'd go 18 Dex/15 Con/15 Wis - qualify for steady shooter in paragon
Basically just echoing other people here, Dwarfs aren't great xbow users in D&D like in other settings, so that choice is limiting you to either non-optimal class choices (Seeker, Bow Warlord or Bow Cleric), or not having a Str/Con/Wis primary but picking a better class (Bow Ranger, Bow Artificer, some Hybrid involving the above 5 classes)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I personally think you would do well with a Killswitch build, although this would still require knowing whats in the rest of the party...
I personally think you would do well with a Killswitch build, although this would still require knowing whats in the rest of the party...



This was my immediate thought was well--it's difficult to think of an optimal choice involving a dwarf and a crossbow that isn't Killswitch.
Yes, this is just begging for Killswitch or even straight Artificer, both mechanically and thematically.
Sorry for the ignorance, but what's a killswitch?
Sorry for the ignorance, but what's a killswitch?



Here
I have spoken a bit with my player and also had a good look at the kill switch build. I like kill switch a lot but feel it is so much better when human. Do you think there are legs in a shaman it druid using a ki crossbow? I ask as they will have a racial bonus to the prime stat with is a must for my player, so ranger and kill switch are no goes.
I have spoken a bit with my player and also had a good look at the kill switch build. I like kill switch a lot but feel it is so much better when human. Do you think there are legs in a shaman it druid using a ki crossbow? I ask as they will have a racial bonus to the prime stat with is a must for my player, so ranger and kill switch are no goes.



I've actually been experiementing with a couple of Killswitch variants, and honestly being Human is only a bonus because of the extra feat. In heroic that's a big enough bonus, but once you get past level 8 or so the extra feat isn't that big of a boon. Thundering Armor, as the build suggests isn't really all that great (though at the right moment it can shine), and the bonus to INT and defenses are nice, but don't neccisarily overshadow what other races can offer.

Killswitch is a great frame work that is fully optimized as a Human, but still works well with other races. 
Unless you plan on having a 20 in your primary stat you can get by with a race that has strong secondary stats. I have been playing an Elf Warden with a 18 str and post racial 16 wisdom and have found the character to be nearly indistinguishable from a Str/Wis 18/18 race from the start. I have 1 less AC than a Str/wis race which amounts to 1 in 20 extra attacks against my AC or will hitting. in practics I haven't even noticed. 

In your case a 18 dex, 13 con 16 wis ranger would be very viable and quite capable of handling the ranged striker role just as well as an 18 dex 18 wis build with only the occasional effect of the slightly lower wisdom being noticed. Short of a few very specific builds, a 20 starting stat is not really worth the points in my opinion.

As long as the rest of the character is sound you'll be fine. 
I ask as they will have a racial bonus to the prime stat with is a must for my player, so ranger and kill switch are no goes.

I suggest you point your player to this thread so we can slap some sense into him. He really doesn't understand what optimization means.
What are peoples thoughts on a druid or shaman that mc's to get a ki and using a ki focused crossbow therefore taking advantage of the dwarf's wisdom bonus?
Locking in a Race, Locking in a Weapon that isn't a racial Weapon, and then expecting to find an optimal class that's good at using that Weapon that also has stats fitting that Race is Beyond Absurd. I don't care if you have a Dwarf with Xbow mini, this is 4e D&D where Dwarves use Hammers and Axes.

You can be a Dwarf. You can use a Crossbow. You can be a Class that uses both Racial stats. You can be well optimized. Pick 3.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I think I will suggest my player goes with a refluff/house rule as it isn't going to be massive encounter anyway so won't have any long term implications.

Thanks all
I have spoken a bit with my player and also had a good look at the kill switch build. I like kill switch a lot but feel it is so much better when human. Do you think there are legs in a shaman it druid using a ki crossbow? I ask as they will have a racial bonus to the prime stat with is a must for my player, so ranger and kill switch are no goes.



I've actually been experiementing with a couple of Killswitch variants, and honestly being Human is only a bonus because of the extra feat. In heroic that's a big enough bonus, but once you get past level 8 or so the extra feat isn't that big of a boon. Thundering Armor, as the build suggests isn't really all that great (though at the right moment it can shine), and the bonus to INT and defenses are nice, but don't neccisarily overshadow what other races can offer.

Killswitch is a great frame work that is fully optimized as a Human, but still works well with other races. 



Thundering Armor ain't great. Heroic Effort, on the other hand, is priceless. Remember that Killswitch was written before its time.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
The only strength class that can use crossbows is warlord. There are no CON classes that use crossbows. The only WIS classes that can use crossbows are seeker and... maybe a sidebuild of cleric. Those are your options if you stick to prime stat boosts. So either go seeker, go warlord, or relax the constraint.


This - but it's worth noting that Dwarves a Just That Good at any number of classes due to excellent support, that they can get away with buying a starting 18, and working from there.

It's also worth noting that you could use a crossbow of Evil Undone on basically any implement calss via a holy symbol MC, which may work as an option.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
The only strength class that can use crossbows is warlord. There are no CON classes that use crossbows. The only WIS classes that can use crossbows are seeker and... maybe a sidebuild of cleric. Those are your options if you stick to prime stat boosts. So either go seeker, go warlord, or relax the constraint.


This - but it's worth noting that Dwarves a Just That Good at any number of classes due to excellent support, that they can get away with buying a starting 18, and working from there.

It's also worth noting that you could use a crossbow of Evil Undone on basically any implement calss via a holy symbol MC, which may work as an option.

Which source will I find the details of the Crossbow of Evil Undone? I'm guessing its a magical item.

This is looking like a good great plan if its what I think it is.
Found it in AV2. However has it been updated? As it look's like it can only be used for Divine Powers? So I couldn't slap it on a Druid with the cleric mc for instance.
Divine classes (which you are when you MC one) can use it as a Holy Symbol (which you can when you MC Paladin, Cleric or Avenger).

However, it's mechanically a lot worse than using basically any other implement - so use a staff and reflavour it.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Indeed - and Dwarves have a nice WIS-based feat (add a save or +wis to HP with Inspiring Word) which dovetails quite nicely with the Archer Warlord's WIS focus.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
The real problem with suboptimal choices is the willingness to make suboptimal choices isn't usually a one-time thing. Having a starting stat of say 16 on a Wizard due to being a non-Int race and being unwilling to spend to get up to 18 is a really suboptimal choice as an example.

But...if that's the only suboptimal choice that the build ever makes, there are ways to make it very competitive. An Enchanter build who goes Lifesinger as an example. In play, whenever possible, they invest to-hit as soon as possible. There are games where this might even provide cover for doing CharOp-style build options - "He's a half-orc Wizard with a 16 Int, you're a Fighter with a 20 Str, and you're complaining he's the optimizer???"

But again, the problem is that the player willing to take a 16 Int on a Wizard is likely also willing to make a lot of other bad choices. So a Dwarf Killswitch might not be ideal. But most games would likely still complain to see it after a while.
Wis doesn't really help a dwarf warlord. If you're getting a +2 Strength, you're not getting a +2 Wis. At which point, you're typically better off going with Int secondary powers, because they are for the most part better, and most Wis riders also happen to have Int as a rider anyway.

Dwarf archer Warlord should work fine, though I'd go with Str/Int. You'll need to burn the first three feats on being competent with a Superior Crossbow, but thankfully Warlords aren't otherwise all that feat intensive.
Why your first three feat I understand one and two but what is the third?

1) Weapon Prof. Sup Xbow
2) Xbow Expertise
3) ?

Why your first three feat I understand one and two but what is the third?

1) Weapon Prof. Sup Xbow
2) Xbow Expertise
3) ?




Speed Loader(so as to not lock up your minor action heals and utilities)
Yeah Speed Loader. You could use a Swiftshot crossbow, but I'd hate to waste a weapon enchant on that. Of course, I think "load minor" is a BS rule, so, there is that.
No, you just ignore speedloader because it's a dumb hacky feat with no reason to exist. Nobody has to draw weapons, potions do not take an entire round to consume, load speeds don't exist.



Unless you have a DM inclined to houserule the game on that issue, crossbow builds need that feat unless they want to consume a lot of minor actions.
No, you just ignore speedloader because it's a dumb hacky feat with no reason to exist. Nobody has to draw weapons, potions do not take an entire round to consume, load speeds don't exist.



Unless you have a DM inclined to houserule the game on that issue, crossbow builds need that feat unless they want to consume a lot of minor actions.


Your DM sucks.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

No, you just ignore speedloader because it's a dumb hacky feat with no reason to exist. Nobody has to draw weapons, potions do not take an entire round to consume, load speeds don't exist.



Unless you have a DM inclined to houserule the game on that issue, crossbow builds need that feat unless they want to consume a lot of minor actions.


Your DM sucks.




Is this suddenly the Homebrew forum? The RAW is specific, the RAI is specific. Killswitch, the build we're referring to, has the feat. Yes, it is reasonable for a DM to rule that it isn't necessary. But finding a rule dumb is not a reason for pretending it doesn't exist. 
No, we don't - all adventurers walk round town with bared swords and sleep with weapons in hand for just this reason.

Totally serious.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
We don't demand everyone take quick draw at feat 2, so no, we're perfectly fine with ignoring the RAW on this.



There isn't a rule preventing you from having a weapon in your hands all day long...
Reasons why most of my characters either have Battle Harness or a Claw Familiar. You should absolutely play with the rule.

Pretending that rule gets handwaved regularly, and building characters based on that assumption makes you no better than MwaO, erachima.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
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