The Loud Minority

I keep reading that these forums are just a noisy minority of people.

That besides results from the play tests there are many other voices out there that we can't hear on these forums.


Where are they?  What forums, facebook groups, social networks or blogs are these other voices being expressed on?

Thanks. 
I keep reading that these forums are just a noisy minority of people.

That besides results from the play tests there are many other voices out there that we can't hear on these forums.


Where are they?  What forums, facebook groups, social networks or blogs are these other voices being expressed on?

Thanks. 



The thousands of surveys they receive following each packet......


You know, the official means of providing feedback. 



Carl
IWhere are they?  What forums, facebook groups, social networks or blogs are these other voices being expressed on?

They are mostly refering to the voices that are not online. The information that WotC gets from the surveys and by looking at the 4e character builder, what they learn by looking at the actual sales figures for various products, that sort of thing.

Essentially an indirect way of seeing what the mass of players who don't post online about D&D are thinking. They are probably less fanatical about tradition and mechanics, and more interested in the rules being simple and easy then the people who post here.

Based on the changes that have shown up in the packet, it doesn't seem like the loud minority and the massive silent majority are that out of touch with each other. A lot of the things that show up as packet changes are things that are agitated for in the forums and vice versa. Of course, there's not a perfect one-to-one correspondence, but I don't think there would be even if the forums were the primary place they were looking to for feedback.

I actually think that there are two silent majorities that people refer to sometimes on these forums. The first is the group of people giving feedback and stuff and interfacing with the playtest but not necessarily spending time on the forums, or at least not posting.

The second are the much more dubious silent majorities who are apperantly out there agreeing with the opinions of people who it might seem are holding minority opinions but who are actually supported by all the other people out there (i.e., "Everyone I know feels that the 3.5 Samurai is an extremely powerful class, and strong evidence of splatbook powercreep.")
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Fact:  The active population of this forum is smaller than the population who plays D&D.

That fact, though, gets used in all sorts of faulty logic.  People will be very quick to tell you that the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population thinks, but they tend to neglect to mention that for the very same reason the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population doesn't think.  People think that just because the forum seems to have an opinion on something (as if we ever approach anything even close to consensus...), that there must be a silent majority somewhere out there that necessarily thinks something different.  Faulty logic, and a poor understanding of statistics and sampling.

It's entirely possible that the forum doesn't represent the larger population.  It's also entirely possible that the forum does represent the larger population.  The point is that we have no way of knowing without more information.  Information, not coincidentally, that WotC is collecting and using to inform their design.

Furthermore, the design process is not one of majority rule.  They're not blind automatons, mechanically constructing the edition solely with polling data.  If a minority has a good idea, they'll implement it.  What matters is creating an awesome game, not strictly appeasing as many people as possible.  It's a fallacy of democracy that the most popular course is always the best.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Fact:  The active population of this forum is smaller than the population who plays D&D.

That fact, though, gets used in all sorts of faulty logic.  People will be very quick to tell you that the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population thinks, but they tend to neglect to mention that for the very same reason the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population doesn't think.  People think that just because the forum seems to have an opinion on something (as if we ever approach anything even close to consensus...), that there must be a silent majority somewhere out there that necessarily thinks something different.  Faulty logic, and a poor understanding of statistics and sampling.

It's entirely possible that the forum doesn't represent the larger population.  It's also entirely possible that the forum does represent the larger population.  The point is that we have no way of knowing without more information.  Information, not coincidentally, that WotC is collecting and using to inform their design.

Furthermore, the design process is not one of majority rule.  They're not blind automatons, mechanically constructing the edition solely with polling data.  If a minority has a good idea, they'll implement it.  What matters is creating an awesome game, not strictly appeasing as many people as possible.  It's a fallacy of democracy that the most popular course is always the best.



*golf clap*

Happy to be back on the best D&D forum on the internet!

Here is reality, read and understand: Rangers aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Fighters aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Casters aren't "god mode" or overpowered, in any edition. The tarrasque isn't broken. And you aren't voicing your opinion by claiming otherwise, you're just being a pain. Now, stop complaining.
Color me flattered.

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Furthermore, the design process is not one of majority rule.  They're not blind automatons, mechanically constructing the edition solely with polling data.  If a minority has a good idea, they'll implement it.  What matters is creating an awesome game, not strictly appeasing as many people as possible.  It's a fallacy of democracy that the most popular course is always the best.

To add to that, I'm sure the posters here and the WotC developers are more concerned with mechanical balance then the large group of casual players. It happens that getting the mechanical balance right makes for a better game even if the majority of players are not aware of this.

I keep reading that these forums are just a noisy minority of people.

That besides results from the play tests there are many other voices out there that we can't hear on these forums.


Where are they?  What forums, facebook groups, social networks or blogs are these other voices being expressed on?

Thanks. 


These forums have a slant to 4e fans. For the longest time, it was where people who enjoyed 4e went for advice, rules questions, and to socialize. So the majority regular posters, the ones used to posting here, tend to be dedicated 4e fans. 

ENWorld has more of a mix of players. It's interesting to note the different ways the same conversations evolve there and here. And there are other forums elsewhere, like RPGNet IIRC. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Fact:  The active population of this forum is smaller than the population who plays D&D.

That fact, though, gets used in all sorts of faulty logic.  People will be very quick to tell you that the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population thinks, but they tend to neglect to mention that for the very same reason the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population doesn't think.  People think that just because the forum seems to have an opinion on something (as if we ever approach anything even close to consensus...), that there must be a silent majority somewhere out there that necessarily thinks something different.  Faulty logic, and a poor understanding of statistics and sampling.

It's entirely possible that the forum doesn't represent the larger population.  It's also entirely possible that the forum does represent the larger population.  The point is that we have no way of knowing without more information.  Information, not coincidentally, that WotC is collecting and using to inform their design.

Furthermore, the design process is not one of majority rule.  They're not blind automatons, mechanically constructing the edition solely with polling data.  If a minority has a good idea, they'll implement it.  What matters is creating an awesome game, not strictly appeasing as many people as possible.  It's a fallacy of democracy that the most popular course is always the best.



I was going to post basically the same thing but you beat me to it.  Anyways an example.

When Mcdonald's wants to test a new product they release it in Cleveland Ohio first, why because Cleveland represents the United States portion of the United States that eat junk food very well.  A tiny slice, but the make up is pretty much identical to their customer base.  There is a strong possiblility that the boards also follow this.  
These forums have a slant to 4e fans. For the longest time, it was where people who enjoyed 4e went for advice, rules questions, and to socialize. So the majority regular posters, the ones used to posting here, tend to be dedicated 4e fans. 

ENWorld has more of a mix of players. It's interesting to note the different ways the same conversations evolve there and here. And there are other forums elsewhere, like RPGNet IIRC. 



I was going to post basically the same thing but you beat me to it.  Anyways an example.

When Mcdonald's wants to test a new product they release it in Cleveland Ohio first, why because Cleveland represents the United States portion of the United States that eat junk food very well.  A tiny slice, but the make up is pretty much identical to their customer base.  There is a strong possiblility that the boards also follow this.  

My personal experience with these boards would indicate that The_Jester is more accurate, honestly and his reasoning is pretty sound as well; although I can't speak about those times personally. While I was a member of the community, I didn't start using the forums much until the playtest came out.

These boards does not give a good idea of HOW MANY people share that opinion.
However, it's a good place to find out WHAT the opinons are.

Survey's will tell you the how much class X sucks.  Forums will tell you WHY they suck.


And yes, there's a good bit of a 4e slant.  Not to say other's are not represented, but still, a heavier number of 4e'ers are here.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Fact:  The active population of this forum is smaller than the population who plays D&D.

That fact, though, gets used in all sorts of faulty logic.  People will be very quick to tell you that the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population thinks, but they tend to neglect to mention that for the very same reason the opinions of this forum should not be taken as indicating what the larger population doesn't think.  People think that just because the forum seems to have an opinion on something (as if we ever approach anything even close to consensus...), that there must be a silent majority somewhere out there that necessarily thinks something different.  Faulty logic, and a poor understanding of statistics and sampling.

It's entirely possible that the forum doesn't represent the larger population.  It's also entirely possible that the forum does represent the larger population.  The point is that we have no way of knowing without more information.  Information, not coincidentally, that WotC is collecting and using to inform their design.

Furthermore, the design process is not one of majority rule.  They're not blind automatons, mechanically constructing the edition solely with polling data.  If a minority has a good idea, they'll implement it.  What matters is creating an awesome game, not strictly appeasing as many people as possible.  It's a fallacy of democracy that the most popular course is always the best.

I was going to post basically the same thing but you beat me to it.  Anyways an example.

When Mcdonald's wants to test a new product they release it in Cleveland Ohio first, why because Cleveland represents the United States portion of the United States that eat junk food very well.  A tiny slice, but the make up is pretty much identical to their customer base.  There is a strong possiblility that the boards also follow this.  

I am willing to believe that these forums are the Cleveland of the internet.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

" Living in Sin with a safety pin goin' Cleveland Rocks, Cleveland rocks"Foot in Mouth!
And yes, there's a good bit of a 4e slant.  Not to say other's are not represented, but still, a heavier number of 4e'ers are here.

I have always felt that to not be the case in this area of the forum, but maybe that's just me. Seems like a lot of "I <3 2e" guys came out of the woodwork when DDN-basic was revealed to be an up-graded retroclone. And then, the vocal, angry, loud supporters of 3e (which does not include all of them, just the loudest ones) are always around being silly.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

The forum is more the New York City of D&D.

Lots of diversity and volume, but tilted in certain directions depending on where you are.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I thought that being able to watch while the sausage is being made would be really fun because the cooks might use my favorite seasonings.  Turns out, like the old adage says, it's STILL not a good idea, PLUS they're not using any of the ingredients I wanted anyway.

All I can do now is look away, trust in their recipe and hope that the final product is tasty.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

And yes, there's a good bit of a 4e slant.  Not to say other's are not represented, but still, a heavier number of 4e'ers are here.

I have always felt that to not be the case in this area of the forum, but maybe that's just me. Seems like a lot of "I ..."" are="" always="" around="" being="" silly="" quote="" br="" class="mbQuoteSpacer">

Oddly, i heard alot of people in the 4e form say it was closer to 2e then 3e.

And again, other editions are represtened.  But i'd roughly give it a 3(4e) :2 (3e) :2(2e): 1(1e) ratio.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And yes, there's a good bit of a 4e slant.  Not to say other's are not represented, but still, a heavier number of 4e'ers are here.

I have always felt that to not be the case in this area of the forum, but maybe that's just me. Seems like a lot of "I   2e" guys came out of the woodwork when DDN-basic was revealed to be an up-graded retroclone. And then, the vocal, angry, loud supporters of 3e (which does not include all of them, just the loudest ones) are always around being silly.


The forum is more the New York City of D&D. Lots of diversity and volume, but tilted in certain directions depending on where you are.


These are the official D&D boards. One thing to remember is that for the past four-plus years "official D&D" equated directly with 4e. Non-4e topics were dumped in the catch-all "Previous Editions" forums way down at the very bottom of the list of forums. If you started talking about TSR or 3e then mods would frequently move your post. There was no "general D&D forum" there was only the "4e Gereral Discussion". This was the place to talk about 4e. 
So while these boards might be New York City, there are some ghettos where the underirables were shoved.  Segregation wasn't intended, but one could argue it ghettos are a pretty accidental result as well...

Next has attracted a lot of attention and brought players new and old to these forums, the regular posters who have been around for years and have the high post counts, the ones who have developed the habit of reading and checking these forums on a daily or weekly basis are predominently 4e fans. Or at least 4e-neutral. And the occasional troll. 

While you can find a variety of views on these boards, and many, many ideas and viewpoints might reflect the majority, these boards are not a representational sampling of D&D players as a whole. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Most likely due to the usual topics of threads I open (usually pretty contentious issues), my impression of this forum (since the playtest began, of course) has been: More "4e" Posters, but More "-4e" Posts.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I am a 2e fan that only got into 4e around the essentials, and I find next is doing well. I do believe that neither I nor my group of fellow gamers is represented on this or any board, since less then 1/4 of us use the Internet for boards
Also, it's usually par for the course that the people who post on the official site are usually going to hold the most extreme positions (in any direction) than the average person simply by virtue of the fact that they care enough to post in the first place.  They have a vested interest in the game and it's potential/eventual direction and actively want to help shape its direction.  The echo chamber effect can thus be very easy to fall prey to, particularly when any given group of shared opinions fall into lockstep on a given topic.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

Also, it's usually par for the course that the people who post on the official site are usually going to hold the most extreme positions (in any direction) than the average person simply by virtue of the fact that they care enough to post in the first place.


This.
I guess I would fall well into vocal minority.

It is probably weird, but I would say 4e are my favorite ruleset, but 2e is my favorite edition. I have fond memories of 2e, but 2e was really enjoyable because the friends I use to play with and the computer games. The streamline rules are the thing I like the most about 4e. What I don't like about 4e are feats and I didn't particularly like the amount of system mastery. I realized this (system mastery) wasn't new in 4e, but I was playing 2e when I was 9 or 10 and really didn't notice and had I never played 3e until after I played 4e.  So I'm confident I represent no one else other then myself.

Edit: Slightly more clarity 

Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of Random Stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

Back to Product and General D&D Discussions -- because the mobile site is bad. (Fixed!)

Most likely due to the usual topics of threads I open (usually pretty contentious issues), my impression of this forum (since the playtest began, of course) has been: More "4e" Posters, but More "-4e" Posts.

I think that's at least in part because the edition wars aren't symmetrical. I think a lot of people think of things as one side being Pro-X, Anti-Y and the other being Pro-Y, Anti-X, but things really center more around just Pro-Y vs. Anti-Y.

Consider the following 3x3 grid, which is hard to make in just text so I hope this shows up right.

Likes 4e ->
A     B     C
D     E     F   ^Likes Previous Editions
G     H     I

The closer to ther right of the chart you are, the more you like 4e. People in the right column are actively big fans of 4e. People in the middle have no strong opinion about it or are sort of neutral; perhaps they stopped playing before it came out due to life changes or whatever, but see the playtest as a good opportunity to get back into the game. Players in the left column dislike 4e enough to post roundly negative things about it (as distinct from people who like the edition, but recognize its relative strengths and weaknesses) and might think that 4e ruined D&D.

The closer to the top of the chart you are, the more you like previous editions. People in the top row really like previous editions; people in the middle row have no strong opinions - perhaps they started playing as 4e came out. People in the bottom row actively hate previous editions.

Let's talk about how populous each group is and what they might look like.

Group A - These are people who hate 4e and love earlier editions. This, I'm comfortable saying, is a vocal and populous group. They're the bulk of the anti-4e side, to whatever extent sides really exist.

Group B - These are people who love earlier editions and have no strong opinions about 4e, or at least not strong enough to express. This feels like a much less vocal group than group A. It might in reality be a larger group than group A, but they're clearly less vocal.

Group C - These are people who love earlier editions and also love 4e. This is a very large group; it consists of the people who liked playing 3.5 or whatever and then liked 4e when it came out. Many 4e fans who have been playing for a long time fall into this group.

Group D - These are people who hate 4e and are lukewarm on previous editions. They seem unlikely to bother with D&D.

Group E - These people are without strong opinions on any edition. Maybe they prefer other systems. They seem unlikely to bother with D&D.

Group F - These people like 4e and have no strong opinions about earlier editions. This probably contains most people who started playing after 4e came out, but might also include people who were group E people but to whom 4e appealed.

Group G - These people hate D&D in general. Most likely devotees of other systems. (Though most devotees of other systems are E's). Nonplayers in edition warring for the most part.

Group H - Similar to group G. I don't really think there's a lot of people like this; most people who hated earlier editions probably just kind of hated 4e by default when it hit.

Group I - While this group - people who love 4e and hate previous editions - is not empty, it's very sparsely populated. This is one of the most interesting groups from a theoretical standpoint because it seems to me that this is a group that's assumed to exist in number, via analogy to group A or something, particularly by members of group A.

If you just leave the groups that are both populous and vocal groups on the chart, you get this -

Likes 4e ->
A     B     C
-      -      F   ^Likes Previous Editions
-      -      -

That explains why you don't get a lot of anti-previous edition posts. There's just not very many people around who feel that way. There aren't many paths a person can go down that lead them to a place where they hate previous editions enough to bash them whole cloth. It's hard to end up in group I. It's very easy to end up in group A. You like something. You check something else out because it's billed as a successor to the thing you like, and you don't like that. Or else you like something, it feels like it's yanked out from under you, and you resent the replacement. Those really aren't experiences that have parallels in the other direction. Edition wars are asymmetrical.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
People complain on the forums. People complain on forums, that what they kinda are. Like talk radio for the average person. But even the forum polls indicate that more people here like the game then don't. Forum posters are clearly the vocal minority, in that less then half of the playetester's post.

No reason to think we are negative. No reason to think that a complaint makes someone against the game either.

Nothings perfect. 

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Group G - These people hate D&D in general. Most likely devotees of other systems. (Though most devotees of other systems are E's). Nonplayers in edition warring for the most part.



Very good glimpse at the various mindsets likely involved... but I feel I should warn people about a subset of Group G as described above: there are some people out there that like one game/system and hate another, but rather than just avoiding that game/system feel compelled to seek out others that enjoy what they hate and actively try to make them hate it too, and who have just enough motivation to do this type of thing - for whatever reason - that they might even participate in the playtest process to try and sabotage their hated game/system... though I would expect such behavior is glaringly obvious to those in charge of interpreting the gathered data.

I even new a fellow like this once that had such a negative opinion of D&D that he got into  game of mine with a line of "Well, maybe it wasn't the system so much as really bad DM... I'll play to see if I like it the way you do it," and then actively ignored every opportunity I presented for the game to turn out exactly like he enjoys games to be (all intrigue, double-dealing and story-heavy focus) while also refusing to take the game even remotely seriously and doing everything he possible could to prove that "D&D is crap, it's all just hack n' slash with no meaningful character growth or story."

...all because he wanted to play Vampire, the other five of us wanted to play D&D, and he hated D&D so bad that he couldn't stand to compromise and give it an honest effort while the rest of us compromised and guaranteed it wouldn't be a dungeon crawl, or just let us enjoy our game without him.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

People complain on the forums. People complain on forums, that what they kinda are. Like talk radio for the average person. But even the forum polls indicate that more people here like the game then don't. Forum posters are clearly the vocal minority, in that less then half of the playetester's post.

No reason to think we are negative. No reason to think that a complaint makes someone against the game either.

Nothings perfect. 


Only if you count "on the fence" as liking the game.

Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of Random Stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

Back to Product and General D&D Discussions -- because the mobile site is bad. (Fixed!)

Group I - While this group - people who love 4e and hate previous editions - is not empty, it's very sparsely populated. This is one of the most interesting groups from a theoretical standpoint because it seems to me that this is a group that's assumed to exist in number, via analogy to group A or something, particularly by members of group A.




I would describe myself as group B; I don't hate 4E, I've played it since release and had fun , but it is not my favorite edition of D&D or my favorite TTRPG.


That said, I think you're underrating the population of members of group I.  I can't name a lot of posters off the top of my head, but I can think of at least three vocal posters who fall into this group, a few of whom are just as bad about slamming previous editions at every opportunity as any anti-4E troll.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Group I - While this group - people who love 4e and hate previous editions - is not empty, it's very sparsely populated. This is one of the most interesting groups from a theoretical standpoint because it seems to me that this is a group that's assumed to exist in number, via analogy to group A or something, particularly by members of group A.




I would describe myself as group B; I don't hate 4E, I've played it since release and had fun , but it is not my favorite edition of D&D or my favorite TTRPG.


That said, I think you're underrating the population of members of group I.  I can't name a lot of posters off the top of my head, but I can think of at least three vocal posters who fall into this group, a few of whom are just as bad about slamming previous editions at every opportunity as any anti-4E troll.

The group, to be sure, is not empty, and just like there's a lot of A's who think they're talking to I's when they're talking to C's or F's, because of assumed symmetry or something, there's a lot of people who would be C's or F's who act like I's because they feel provoked or because of assumed symmetry or whatever. I think that the bulk of the I-ish sentiment is people like that. I don't want to entirely discount the existance of people who tried 3.5, hated it on its own merits enough to bash it, and then liked 4e when it came out, but I believe them to be relatively rare. I's definitely exist, and I was probably thinking of some of the same posters you are when I described the group as "not empty", and certainly many of them have plenty to say about it.

Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
These forums have a slant to 4e fans. For the longest time, it was where people who enjoyed 4e went for advice, rules questions, and to socialize. So the majority regular posters, the ones used to posting here, tend to be dedicated 4e fans. 

ENWorld has more of a mix of players. It's interesting to note the different ways the same conversations evolve there and here. And there are other forums elsewhere, like RPGNet IIRC. 



I was going to post basically the same thing but you beat me to it.  Anyways an example.

When Mcdonald's wants to test a new product they release it in Cleveland Ohio first, why because Cleveland represents the United States portion of the United States that eat junk food very well.  A tiny slice, but the make up is pretty much identical to their customer base.  There is a strong possiblility that the boards also follow this.  

My personal experience with these boards would indicate that The_Jester is more accurate, honestly and his reasoning is pretty sound as well; although I can't speak about those times personally. While I was a member of the community, I didn't start using the forums much until the playtest came out.





I think that there is some truth in these sentiments as well. After all they have the most recent investment in D&D. Also a large portion of the gaming community I am involved in, some 30 people, will not even post in these forums. They feel that it is often times too hostile. I must admit there are times I am not comfortable interacting in these forums, but what some of my friends see as hostile, I try to see as passion. The problem I feel is that sometimes passion gets in the way of productive communication, and I have had my moments as well.
I think that there is some truth in these sentiments as well. After all they have the most recent investment in D&D. Also a large portion of the gaming community I am involved in, some 30 people, will not even post in these forums. They feel that it is often times too hostile. I must admit there are times I am not comfortable interacting in these forums, but what some of my friends see as hostile, I try to see as passion. The problem I feel is that sometimes passion gets in the way of productive communication, and I have had my moments as well.


There's certainly plenty of hostility and passion (hostility itself really wouldn't be possible without underlying passion), but there's also plenty of people who were here through one or more edition wars and suffer from some form of what i call "gamer ptsd."  A lot of this stems from outright lies levied at each of the various editions by people who never seriously played them.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

I'll tell you where that minority is and where their opinions are being discussed... around the kitchen table.

By far the largest group of table top RPG gamers I know are in their 30's-40's, gaming is a hobby they enjoy crammed in behind family and work, they have time for a weekly or bi-weekly game, often with the same people they have been gaming with for 20 years.

They have no time for this forum, they have never read it, never posted on it. that is the huge silent majority of gamers, D&D's largest demographic, the reason why 4e died on the vine. old gamers dont die, they dont fade away, they just keep playing oldschool and stop going to conventions. oh, and they do spend a lot of money on books and materials even if they never use them.

they are interested in D&D Next, but after 4.0 they have very little faith in WotC. Right now most are playing pathfinder, and if a few do post, their probably posting on those message boards.

They arent playtesting Next, their playing the games their interested in now and waiting to see what happens with Next after it comes out.

and if you dont give them enough reason to switch systems, if that nostalgic feeling isnt back in the game while still having better and yet more simple mechanics, If the rule system isnt truly modular, If next comes out only half complete still needing 3 books waiting to be printed before all the expected and loved traditional classes and options are available... if its really only half a game... 

well then PF will go right along being no.1 and the grand re-birth of D&D might end up just being a very loud, very stinky, but quickly dissapated fart.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
People complain on the forums. People complain on forums, that what they kinda are. Like talk radio for the average person. But even the forum polls indicate that more people here like the game then don't. Forum posters are clearly the vocal minority, in that less then half of the playetester's post.

No reason to think we are negative. No reason to think that a complaint makes someone against the game either.

Nothings perfect. 


Only if you count "on the fence" as liking the game.



nope. I didn't count on the fence at all. for either side.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

They have no time for this forum, they have never read it, never posted on it. that is the huge silent majority of gamers, D&D's largest demographic, the reason why 4e died on the vine.


Well, you can claim "huge" but no one really knows how large the so-called silent majority is, or even if they are an actual majority.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

it's at least 12, 14 if measured from the base of the twins. ugg sorry I couldent resist... but yeah theres no doubt in my mind thats were most the of the people who spend the most on RPGs are coming from... 30-40 year old kitchen table gamers.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
it's at least 12, 14 if measured from the base of the twins.


Remember to use the proper formula:

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

theres no doubt in my mind thats were most the of the people who spend the most on RPGs are coming from... 30-40 year old kitchen table gamers.


This is my current gaming group as well (well, excluding myself - I'm the young'n by what ranges from 4 to 8 years), but their experience with 4e was immensely positive, rather than negative.  They still spent a whole lot less money on it than they did on 3e (or even other RPGs) because (1) they're adults now, with families (mostly), and don't have the same disposable income, and (2) that whole "recession" thing happened, and they don't have the same disposable income as they used to.

I don't think the age demographics are all that telling of preference, was my super-anecdotal point.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
They have no time for this forum, they have never read it, never posted on it. that is the huge silent majority of gamers, D&D's largest demographic, the reason why 4e died on the vine.


Well, you can claim "huge" but no one really knows how large the so-called silent majority is, or even if they are an actual majority.


I think he is using a oldschool population chart to figure out the counts. I believe 1 in 500 silent majority member is a chieftain. 

Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of Random Stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

Back to Product and General D&D Discussions -- because the mobile site is bad. (Fixed!)

The 4E fans may be more visible also because they probably have the strongest (justifiably so) feelings about this process. All I want from D&DNext is basically a similar yet less complex version of 3.5 that fixes the "magic shoppe on every corner syndrome" while still delivering a wide range of character options such as backgrounds, specialties, and prestige classes. 4E players are probably feeling abandoned by WoTC right now. They love their game every bit as much as 3.5 players loved theirs. To them, 4E was NOT a failure. To them, 4E was the pinnacle of D&D design. Now they feel like all the innovations that they love are being tossed aside in favor of a watered-down version of 3.5.
These forums have a slant to 4e fans. For the longest time, it was where people who enjoyed 4e went for advice, rules questions, and to socialize. So the majority regular posters, the ones used to posting here, tend to be dedicated 4e fans. 

ENWorld has more of a mix of players. It's interesting to note the different ways the same conversations evolve there and here. And there are other forums elsewhere, like RPGNet IIRC. 



I was going to post basically the same thing but you beat me to it.  Anyways an example.

When Mcdonald's wants to test a new product they release it in Cleveland Ohio first, why because Cleveland represents the United States portion of the United States that eat junk food very well.  A tiny slice, but the make up is pretty much identical to their customer base.  There is a strong possiblility that the boards also follow this.  

My personal experience with these boards would indicate that The_Jester is more accurate, honestly and his reasoning is pretty sound as well; although I can't speak about those times personally. While I was a member of the community, I didn't start using the forums much until the playtest came out.





I think that there is some truth in these sentiments as well. After all they have the most recent investment in D&D. Also a large portion of the gaming community I am involved in, some 30 people, will not even post in these forums. They feel that it is often times too hostile. I must admit there are times I am not comfortable interacting in these forums, but what some of my friends see as hostile, I try to see as passion. The problem I feel is that sometimes passion gets in the way of productive communication, and I have had my moments as well.



I would agree with that sentiment,  and The Jester's.  WOTC permitted these forums to be extremely hostile to anyone who didn't think 4th edition was the greatest for a long time,  if you breathed a word against it you'd receive insults that would make 4chan blush,  and the mods would permit them.  Reporting it wouldn't even do anything.

That behavior is still present to some degree today.  There are several posters who are clearly 4th edition fans who'll respond with ad-hominem attacks if you dare to suggest 4th edition style design isn't the greatest.  The Mod's do act more proactively today,  I've had a number of responses to my posts deleted before I could even respond to them,  but by that time the poster has already been emailed the hostile content.  Worse is the recent trend of clear 4th edition fans declaring any posts indicating 4th edition had issues as "Edition warring",  which appears to be a tactic designed to drive out any discussion that doesn't reflect well on 4th as "Edition warring" is an actionable offense.

So I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that this forum still has a disproportionate number of 4th edition fans and that many don't want to interact here.  Half of the time I don't want to interact here. 
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