Magical Expertise??

I am really surprised that I haven't seen this idea bandied about yet, but why isn't there talk of including Magical Expertise as a class ability? I could see it functioning almost identically to Combat Expertise; it'd grant magic users a pool of magical combat dice that they could use to perform certain spellcasting maneuvers or enhance their spells.

I could easily see maneuvers that let you do an extra 1d6 damage with a Ray of Frost, spending a die to boost the DC of the spell by two, or spending a die as a reaction to get +4 to AC. Heck, even metamagic feats/abilities could be retailored to act as magical maneuvers: one die boosts range, four dice maximizes the spell, etc.


So is this something we could possibly see in the future, or is this a pipe dream? 
I am really surprised that I haven't seen this idea bandied about yet, but why isn't there talk of including Magical Expertise as a class ability? I could see it functioning almost identically to Combat Expertise; it'd grant magic users a pool of magical combat dice that they could use to perform certain spellcasting maneuvers or enhance their spells.

I could easily see maneuvers that let you do an extra 1d6 damage with a Ray of Frost, spending a die to boost the DC of the spell by two, or spending a die as a reaction to get +4 to AC. Heck, even metamagic feats/abilities could be retailored to act as magical maneuvers: one die boosts range, four dice maximizes the spell, etc.


So is this something we could possibly see in the future, or is this a pipe dream? 



I agree completely.  Right now, it is not as interesting playing a Cleric or a Wizard because MDD are "cool".    Let everyone have some of that.  (MDD gives too much bonus to damage and parry at this point, especially when PCs get 3 or more dice.   That needs to be toned down.  Mike Mearls acknowledged that too in the Google Hangouts Session).

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Wizards can STOP TIME.  They can disintegrate chunks of castles.  They can summon fire from the sky and they can talk to GODS.

And you want to give them MORE POWER???
Wizards can STOP TIME.  They can disintegrate chunks of castles.  They can summon fire from the sky and they can talk to GODS.

And you want to give them MORE POWER???



It would not be more power if it were designed right.  Wizards could use MDD to scale damage.  Damage of spells would not have to scale automatically.  Also, nobody in a game will ever Stop Time or Disintegrate anything if players don't want to play them for the first 10 levels.


A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Wizards can STOP TIME.  They can disintegrate chunks of castles.  They can summon fire from the sky and they can talk to GODS.

And you want to give them MORE POWER???



I do not want to give spellcasters more power.


My point was that we've been given a very interesting mechanic that makes it more fun and tactical to play a fighty type, and I bet it would be fun to apply a similar mechanic to add the same variety to spellcasters.
Wizards can STOP TIME.  They can disintegrate chunks of castles.  They can summon fire from the sky and they can talk to GODS.

And you want to give them MORE POWER???



No one's talking about wizards or any other pseudo-Vancian crap-that-doesn't-deserve-to-exist.

This is for SORCERERS and SPONTANEOUS CASTERS, and by the way OP, I suggested it several times. Tongue Out 
I don't want to ever see every single class using the same mechanics, even if it's under a different name.

I do not want to give spellcasters more power.

My point was that we've been given a very interesting mechanic that makes it more fun and tactical to play a fighty type, and I bet it would be fun to apply a similar mechanic to add the same variety to spellcasters.



I think this is a good point and I would like to see this tried in a future playtest. It seems odd that some mechanics are universal (hit dice recovery, skill dice), but some are only nearly so (expertise dice). It wouldn't necessarily make Wizards over powerful, as balance comes from so many many factors, but it would make playing a Wizard more interesting and give them a similar opportunity to manage resources.
This comes across to me as too much homogenization. I love that they invented a new mechanic to finally give fighters a new trick no one else had. They've spread it across every class now other than fighter, but THIS is where I draw the line.

I'm all for wizards to gain a new, interesting mechanic, but this is not it. Give me a reason other than, "you get to roll more dice" to play a spellcaster.

Not to mention the fact that if casters get a MDD equivalent, we go back to the same issue of fighters being relatively boring.
I don't think that the interest in each class comes from their mechanics, it comes from their abilities. Skill dice and expertise dice are like hit dice--everyone gets them and uses them as they see fit. Classes become intriguing when they get unique options for using those mechanics. Rogues are much cooler now with tricks that affect combat in ways other than stacking buffs. If Wizards got Magical Expertise Dice, they would also get leveled abilities with which to use them, not neccesarily just to stack damage. Increasing range or area of effect, spell duration, and excluding allies from effects (to borrow from the School of Evocation) are a few possibilities.

I do not want to give spellcasters more power.

My point was that we've been given a very interesting mechanic that makes it more fun and tactical to play a fighty type, and I bet it would be fun to apply a similar mechanic to add the same variety to spellcasters.



I think this is a good point and I would like to see this tried in a future playtest. It seems odd that some mechanics are universal (hit dice recovery, skill dice), but some are only nearly so (expertise dice). It wouldn't necessarily make Wizards over powerful, as balance comes from so many many factors, but it would make playing a Wizard more interesting and give them a similar opportunity to manage resources.


 So, do you want to give spells to every class?  Do you want to give Rage powers to every class?  Because frankly, that's what you're suggesting.
No, I don't mean to suggest giving each class the same abilities, only the same underlying resource mechanics. Fighters use Martial Damage Dice to augment their primary ability--melee attacks, so why not Wizards use Magical Expertise Dice to augment their spells?
I disagree. If interest in a class didn't come from mechanics there would be no call to have a sorcerer when there already is a wizard. It's existance proves that people want different mechanics for different classes.
Sorcerors have different abilities, so interest in the sorceror could come from abilities, not mechanics.
I assume you are talking about 4th edition at this point. At their creation, they used the same spell list as the wizard. Only their casting mechanics were different.
Can I just say that martial damage dice are stupid and giving wizards a 1d10 + 1d6 cantrip is stupid?
I assume you are talking about 4th edition at this point. At their creation, they used the same spell list as the wizard. Only their casting mechanics were different.


That's true about the spell list. I was thinking more about sorceror-specific abilities, like those based on origin (Dragon Scales, Dragon Strength). I assume if the Sorceror returns, it will be fleshed out more distinctions from Wizards. I think the class went away because it was too similar to Wizards.
That's true about the spell list. I was thinking more about sorceror-specific abilities, like those based on origin (Dragon Scales, Dragon Strength). I assume if the Sorceror returns, it will be fleshed out more distinctions from Wizards. I think the class went away because it was too similar to Wizards.



And what I'm saying is in 3rd Edition, the sorcer didn't have sorcerer-specific abilities. Those were added in 4e, Pathfinder, and now 5e.

We haven't seen a return of the sorcerer because people said that the 5e sorcerer is cool, but not a sorcerer. Rodney Thompson said the 5e sorcerer will be back, but not as a sorcerer. He'll be more of a mage-tank class that combines spellcasting and damage.

And honestly, I wouldn't mind a die mechanic tacked onto the sorcerer, though I prefer they didn't. Just keep it off my wizard and cleric (Cleric already gets that stupic MDD they're giving to everyone eventually anyway). 
I don't think that the interest in each class comes from their mechanics, it comes from their abilities. Skill dice and expertise dice are like hit dice--everyone gets them and uses them as they see fit. Classes become intriguing when they get unique options for using those mechanics. Rogues are much cooler now with tricks that affect combat in ways other than stacking buffs. If Wizards got Magical Expertise Dice, they would also get leveled abilities with which to use them, not neccesarily just to stack damage. Increasing range or area of effect, spell duration, and excluding allies from effects (to borrow from the School of Evocation) are a few possibilities.



That was the phisolophy behind 4th edition, and I found it very uninteresting. Give everyone the same mechanics, and they are all the same class, the way I see it, even if their abilities have different names. What made all of the classes really interesting in 3rd edition was not just the flavor and the abilities, but that each of them had their own unique mechanics.
I can see this working as a 3.5 style sorcerer.  ADD (I like arcane damage dice better) add to his eldritch blast and he can spend ADD to modify and/or add riders to his attack.
No, I don't mean to suggest giving each class the same abilities, only the same underlying resource mechanics. Fighters use Martial Damage Dice to augment their primary ability--melee attacks, so why not Wizards use Magical Expertise Dice to augment their spells?



EVERYONE has the ability to perform melee attacks. The only thing that currently allows the Fighter to do anything BUT just perform the same basic ability that EVERYONE has is their MDD.

You may not be suggesting every class should get the same abilities. What you are suggesting is that every class should have the same underlying resource mechanics, and then that every magical class should get more abilities on top of that while martical classes (or perhaps just the Fighter) get nothing else. What CVB was actually getting at is that you were saying "I think it's odd that only the martial classes get this unique mechanic" while ignoring that magical classes get the unique mechanic called "spells". Why should casters get the defining ability of the martial classes if the martial classes don't get the abilities of the casters?
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No, I don't mean to suggest giving each class the same abilities, only the same underlying resource mechanics. Fighters use Martial Damage Dice to augment their primary ability--melee attacks, so why not Wizards use Magical Expertise Dice to augment their spells?



EVERYONE has the ability to perform melee attacks. The only thing that currently allows the Fighter to do anything BUT just perform the same basic ability that EVERYONE has is their MDD.

You may not be suggesting every class should get the same abilities. What you are suggesting is that every class should have the same underlying resource mechanics, and then that every magical class should get more abilities on top of that while martical classes (or perhaps just the Fighter) get nothing else. What CVB was actually getting at is that you were saying "I think it's odd that only the martial classes get this unique mechanic" while ignoring that magical classes get the unique mechanic called "spells". Why should casters get the defining ability of the martial classes if the martial classes don't get the abilities of the casters?




While I do agree with you that wizards shouldn't have magical dice, I agree with you for the wrong reasons.

Wizards  shouldn't have magical dice, they should have flat modifiers based on their intelligence on their spells to put them even close to the damage that a ranger, for example, put out. X2int on single target spells, and x2/2 rounded up on AOE spell damage. This would put them on par with the martial classes at early levels, but not make that much of a difference at level 20.

Trying to directly compare the Martial classes and Wizard classes in anything but terms of raw damage is a mute point, as each class has its own utility niche in the group.
No, I don't mean to suggest giving each class the same abilities, only the same underlying resource mechanics. Fighters use Martial Damage Dice to augment their primary ability--melee attacks, so why not Wizards use Magical Expertise Dice to augment their spells?



EVERYONE has the ability to perform melee attacks. The only thing that currently allows the Fighter to do anything BUT just perform the same basic ability that EVERYONE has is their MDD.

You may not be suggesting every class should get the same abilities. What you are suggesting is that every class should have the same underlying resource mechanics, and then that every magical class should get more abilities on top of that while martical classes (or perhaps just the Fighter) get nothing else. What CVB was actually getting at is that you were saying "I think it's odd that only the martial classes get this unique mechanic" while ignoring that magical classes get the unique mechanic called "spells". Why should casters get the defining ability of the martial classes if the martial classes don't get the abilities of the casters?



The problem is that MDD gives options twice per round for fighters (as written).   Fighters can add damage (action) and then parry a blow (reaction).  This gives them 2x economy of action of a Wizard and Cleric every turn!!!!

Wizards (and Clerics too) have to limit the way they use spells (especially now that they don't have that many to begin with) so playing a wizard becomes..maybe burning hands.....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit....etc.   As a first level PC, this can happen in only 2 encounters.  Then it becomes...ray of frost....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit...etc.   Not so fun. 

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 


The problem is that MDD gives options twice per round for fighters (as written).   Fighters can add damage (action) and then parry a blow (reaction).  This gives them 2x economy of action of a Wizard and Cleric every turn!!!!



So?  They still don't have the same success rate that Caster Classes do.  It's kinda hard to top 100%.

Wizards (and Clerics too) have to limit the way they use spells (especially now that they don't have that many to begin with) so playing a wizard becomes..maybe burning hands.....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit....etc.   As a first level PC, this can happen in only 2 encounters.  Then it becomes...ray of frost....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit...etc.   Not so fun. 



Rope Trick, rest up, get spells, blow them in five minutes.  Rope Trick, rest up...
Rope trick lasts 1 hour. Regaining spells require a long rest, which is 8 hours.

Seriously does nobody read spell descriptions?
Rope Trick, rest up, get spells, blow them in five minutes.  Rope Trick, rest up...



 
Rope trick lasts 1 hour. Regaining spells require a long rest, which is 8 hours.

Seriously does nobody read spell descriptions?




Not to mention simply ignoring the fact that the rules clearly state:  "You cannot benefit from more than one long rest in a 24--‐hour period." 


So, yes.  If you ignore both the spell description and the rules of the game - the wizard becomes incredibly powerful.  Ok.  What was your point, CVB?


Carl
So it's been errata'ed that the extradimensional space ALSO vanishes after an hour?  (Haven't read the latest packet's magic section, which makes this a legit question.)  Because as written in the previous one, only the ROPE vanishes after an hour, not the space it's tethered to.
So it's been errata'ed that the extradimensional space ALSO vanishes after an hour?  (Haven't read the latest packet's magic section, which makes this a legit question.)  Because as written in the previous one, only the ROPE vanishes after an hour, not the space it's tethered to.



From the spell description (unchanged since December, at least):


Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.


Sounds pretty clear to me.  You can argue that the space doesn't disappear if you wish.  But the caster ain't gonna be in that space anymore.



Edit:  That was part of the spell description since August. 
I.e. As far as I can tell, it has always been part of the spell description in 5E. 
Carl  
  


The problem is that MDD gives options twice per round for fighters (as written).   Fighters can add damage (action) and then parry a blow (reaction).  This gives them 2x economy of action of a Wizard and Cleric every turn!!!!



So?  They still don't have the same success rate that Caster Classes do.  It's kinda hard to top 100%.

Wizards (and Clerics too) have to limit the way they use spells (especially now that they don't have that many to begin with) so playing a wizard becomes..maybe burning hands.....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit....etc.   As a first level PC, this can happen in only 2 encounters.  Then it becomes...ray of frost....ray of frost....let me take cover so I don't get hit...etc.   Not so fun. 



Rope Trick, rest up, get spells, blow them in five minutes.  Rope Trick, rest up...



Many spells are not 100% (ray of frost calls for a "to hit" roll).  And when they are, they do less damage when save is made (burning hands).

Rope Trick only lasts for 1 hour.   Wizards cannot rest and gain spells in 1 hour.   In fact, Rope Trick will benefit fighters just as much if not more than wizards because if a fighter is low on hit points and needs a short rest to use Hit Dice to heal, Rope trick will allow for that. 

From my experience, and from all of the players in my group, MDD just makes Fighters (and Rogues) more fun to play at this point in the playtest.       

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

I am not in favor of giving every class a similar resource mechanic.  Honestly, I'm not even sure I like the idea of MDD being given to everything with a semi-melee focus.  I actually far preferred the idea that it was a Fighter-exclusive package, to help give them more of a niche.  That's obviously not going to be the case, but I think sticking the same model on every class, no matter what you call it, is not a great idea.  This is specifically what turned some people off in 4e.