Thoughts on the Barbarian...

Well, if you're gonna start a whole thread about it, I might as well put this here:
The Barbarian sure does... that one thing.

Uh... kind of to the exclusion of all else.

Rage is functional - but I feel like that's all there even is to be said about the Barbarian at the moment.

EDIT: I'm not even sure functional is all that correct.  The class's "shtick" in combat is largely "Have Advantage", and (unless they've changed it yet), "Have Advantage" is a "shtick" that doesn't shtack - if you'll pardon the terrible terrible pun.




Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I will roll one up and rage around with it.  Looks intense.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I'm not so sure about this Barbarian. I know this is only one build but it really doesn't do much besides rage and while rages are powerful they're really limited probably a little too much for what you get from them. Hopefully the devs don't include both Iron Hide and Mindful Defense as options when multiclassing comes out or we'll have nigh-invulnerable barbaric monks running around (And between Step of the Wind and Fast Movement they'll really be running). I really like Primal Might but maybe around level 12-15?
Don't forget that it's like when we first got the monk: it's the first version we have, so it has all it's options fixed, the next time we see it it will have more choices
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
I'm not so sure about this Barbarian. I know this is only one build but it really doesn't do much besides rage and while rages are powerful they're really limited probably a little too much for what you get from them. Hopefully the devs don't include both Iron Hide and Mindful Defense as options when multiclassing comes out or we'll have nigh-invulnerable barbaric monks running around (And between Step of the Wind and Fast Movement they'll really be running). I really like Primal Might but maybe around level 12-15?



they will have to take that in acount when they do multi class rules.
so when you have  Iron Hide and Mindful Defense you add the higest of the 2 abolity scores instead of adding both.
I'm not so sure about this Barbarian. I know this is only one build but it really doesn't do much besides rage and while rages are powerful they're really limited probably a little too much for what you get from them. Hopefully the devs don't include both Iron Hide and Mindful Defense as options when multiclassing comes out or we'll have nigh-invulnerable barbaric monks running around (And between Step of the Wind and Fast Movement they'll really be running). I really like Primal Might but maybe around level 12-15?



they will have to take that in acount when they do multi class rules.
so when you have  Iron Hide and Mindful Defense you add the higest of the 2 abolity scores instead of adding both.



I suppose they could have ballanced it out with a non-lawful requirement for the barbarian, but given the general reaction to alignments restrictions when the monk came out, they wisely backed out of this one
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
The Barbarian is a one-trick pony, and they had to go and put a daily limit on it. They already have to take a short rest between rages, why does there need to be a daily limit on top of that? What does having a daily limit on their one useful feature serve? Instead of the party having a 5 minute workday for the cleric and wizard, now they'll be resting so the barbarian can get back his 2 rages per day. Yuck.

I also don't like the mechanics of rage. Giving advantage on Strength checks and attacks seems simple and powerful, but it also means that there's no reason to buff a barbarian with spells that grant advantage. Why cast invisibility on a barbarian when he gets advantage on his attacks from raging already, meaning that the spell does nothing? This is more of a problem with the advantage mechanic in general, but it's still worth bringing up here.
I like it and think the Barbarian is heading in the right direction. Expertise is a natural fitFast Movement, Feral Reflexes, Feral Instinct, Feral Senses and Primal Might really show the Barbarian’s athletic and feral aspect well. Rage is well done with its benefits and drawbacks and its pretty straightforward and simple. Reckless Attack and Channel Fury are both strong and scary, getting and granting advantage is very impactful while remaining simple. Relenthless Rage, Endless Rage and Regenerative Rage help make him more sturdy as well, up to a point where its near unkilleable while ragingIron Hide also help upping its low defense while wearing no armor but its a useless feature for those that do wear one thought and should give something else, like allow Constitution instead of Dexterity when wearing armor for exemple. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I would actually have loved for WotC redisgin skills entirely and include Melee Fighting, Ranged Combat, and Spellcasting as skills. Then have training in a skill grant a 2nd d20 instead of the skill die. (See my math of the skill system here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...)

This way advantage would simply grant an extra die rolled (and could stack more easily). For combat related rolls, each success on a d20 might grant +1[W] damage as a way to simulate multiple attacks.


P.S. Daily rages = boo...    
I prefer rage as a daily ressource because it means its not done at-will and is more meaningful and impactful in encounters in which he rages.  Everyone immediatly see the difference since a Brabarian is not always raging, he must channel fury to do so and become more dangerous and reckless when entering in that state.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I always feel that a somehow-conditional trigger for rage serves as a far, far better "restriction" than a flat "Only X times per Y".

There have been enough threads discussing it that examples are pretty easy to find, with a search or two.  Many aren't even much more complex than "X/day" is.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I support rages per day because there's enough mechanics here that work outside of it for the barbarian to still be interesting. Rages themselves will essentially last the entire encounter as long as you're swinging, which is appreciable.

Rages per day as a mechanic should be appreciated for what they are, a long-form buff that allows the barbarian to channel their anger into single-minded combat prowess. Barbarians going into a rage should be something special; if you've made this force of muscle and rage consider you enough of a threat to be angry at you, watch out. If they're angry when they're swinging their sword, angry when they're blacksmithing, angry when they're tracking, and angry when they're taking a dump, it becomes hard to really distinguish when they're soul-quakingly infuriating. Take Gears of War as an example- the main characters are so angry all the time that when they actually become angry over a tragedy, you don't feel a difference.

By keeping rages limited to X encounters per day, it encourages barbarians to choose their rages wisely, and when they do rage, shows everyone on the other end of their murderstick just what they're messing with. 
I prefer rage as a daily ressource because it means its not done at-will and is more meaningful and impactful in encounters in which he rages.  Everyone immediatly see the difference since a Brabarian is not always raging, he must channel fury to do so and become more dangerous and reckless when entering in that state.



Don't get me wrong here, I don't want a barbarian who walks around town Raging 100% of the time, but if raging is going to be the barbarian's Thing I want them to not be beholden to arbitrary daily limits. I would also like for barbarians who can rage once per encounter (not necessarily at the start of the encounter though).

I think building up fury by hitting enemies or being hit that you unleash to enter a rage would be cooler than random daily limits. Hell, even rages only triggering when you get bloodied by an attack would be cooler than arbitrary daily limits. Right now...rage just seems lacking. 
I prefer rage as a daily ressource because it means its not done at-will and is more meaningful and impactful in encounters in which he rages.  Everyone immediatly see the difference since a Brabarian is not always raging, he must channel fury to do so and become more dangerous and reckless when entering in that state.



I prefer a daily rage to an at-will rage. An at-will rage would have to be nerfed heavily to be balanced unless the isea was that the barbarian is never not in a rage. I prefer a true two-mode barbarian rather than an always-raging one.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I think the daily resource for rage can be tweaked via the 'dial' concept mentioned in the recently released Legends & Lore.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

A quick glance says that's a lot of stuff about raging. It's very much the 3E style of rage.

It's obvious that the primary stat is Strength, with Dex and Con as secondaries. This should surprise no one. Someday we need a Dex barbarian, for those hissing, spitting kobolds that latch onto your face like a  feral cat and do not let go until all the skin is flayed. Oh well, maybe next time.

The ability to do a 'mini-rage' strike will make it feel like a barbarian more than twice per day. Thumbs up.

Feral Senses at level 14 is a non-combat power. How unusual to have those. We need more.

The level 15 ability to incite party rages is fantastic for cooperative play. A few low-level abilities like it and we'd have a warlord.

Primal Might: At last, a use for odd-numbered Strength scores!

The level 10 Regenerative Rage ability synergizes with the level 20 Endless Rage ability. Endless Rage makes you not die while raging, Regenerative Rage heals you 5 at the start of your turn, all healing starts from 0, and you don't stop raging until the end of your turn. Put that together, and a level 20 barbarian will always have at least 5 hp at the end of a rage. Makes me wonder why they included the line about the barbarian dying if it had low hit points at the end of a rage.

Summary: It's an angry naked fighter with See Invisible and a warlord power. If you came from 3rd edition, this is a great improvement. If you came from fourth... well, there's always refluff.

All in all, I like it a lot. 

I HATE the fact that it rages per day. That seems... lame. It is exactly what I did not want to see. But, the effects of the rage seem neat. All the other abilities seem very neat as well.


I think it's a great starting place for the class - naked barbarians are now free to roam and slay their enemies just like the clothed warriors! 

Probably need to see a little more variety with the class, but I don't think rage is too limited, considering it lasts until you can't make an attack... although if you get sleeped, polymorphed or whatever, that's the end of the rage. Playtests will determine how it shakes out
Epic fantasy action adventure! - free ebook
The Barbarian is a one-trick pony, and they had to go and put a daily limit on it. They already have to take a short rest between rages, why does there need to be a daily limit on top of that? What does having a daily limit on their one useful feature serve? Instead of the party having a 5 minute workday for the cleric and wizard, now they'll be resting so the barbarian can get back his 2 rages per day. Yuck.



I think one of the things this playtest will have to look at is how often a rage ends prematurely due to not being able to attack.

Personaly with rage i see it as somthing that would take a lot out of a body.
so a rule like  you can enter a rage by spending one of your healing hitdice would not sound strange to me.
But it might be they decided not to go that path maybe the healing hitdice aren't seen as a fixed recource yet. 
::yawn::

I wonder when the multiclassing rules come out?

I don't like at-will raging, but I don't like daily raging either. I would rather raging be something you can only do when a condition is met, and instead of getting more rages per day you get more/easier to meet conditions. At level 20 you could just rage at will. The once per encounter limit would still hold.

So, for example, at level 1 you might be able to rage after an ally drops below 1 hit point. At level 5 you might get to rage whenever you are hit twice in one round. At level 9 you might get to rage whenever any of your allies is hit twice in one round. At level 12 you might get to rage any time you and at least one ally both hit a target in one round. At level 17 you might get to rage any time you attack or are attacked. At level 20 you can rage at-will. No matter what, you cannot rage more than once per encounter. 

I also don't like the mechanics of rage. Giving advantage on Strength checks and attacks seems simple and powerful, but it also means that there's no reason to buff a barbarian with spells that grant advantage. Why cast invisibility on a barbarian when he gets advantage on his attacks from raging already, meaning that the spell does nothing? This is more of a problem with the advantage mechanic in general, but it's still worth bringing up here.


what do you mean invisibility does nothing for them? this is an issue i have with some people, they look at the numbers or the mechanical benefits and decide "this is underpowered, why would you take it?"
what casting invisibility on a barbarian would do is, MAKE THEM INVISIBLE!

"there is no reason to buff a barbarian with spells that grant advantage" why is this a complaint? i mean, god forbid, martial characters can stand out in their own right and not rely on caster to hold their hand all the time.


but unrelated to the quote, my view on the rage per day. i like it, it makes sense.

a barbarian rages, they build up adrenaline, fury, whatever power source. this keepss going until they get a moment to calm down. this can temporarily wind you so that is why a short rest is required between before doing it again. but to do it multiple times is, well, long term taxing.
seriosuly, any one that has had multiple adrenaline surges in the one day will know what im talking about. your muscles get sore and fatigued, you start to feel drained, your daily energy reserves deplete.

so, keep the daily uses, but perhaps add con mod to them. a tougher barbarian is going to be able to push his body through a lot more in a day.
So, those that don't want rage as a daily or at-will want it as a conditional encounter power then?

Maybe the conditions should depend on the type of rage being used? Some conditions might be more situational than others (ie taking fire damage), but that shouldn't be a problem so long as you have more than one type of rage to trigger from. But I'm not sure how that can happen while simultaneously satisfying the "Barbarian = straightforward" criteria.

Erm where is the new barbarian?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Personally, i dislike conditional rage because it means the player doesn't have the choice to decide when his Barbarian rages. And i dislike rages on an encounter basis because it means Barbarian rages every encounter.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

@Zardnaar

New playtest document.



a barbarian rages, they build up adrenaline, fury, whatever power source. this keepss going until they get a moment to calm down. this can temporarily wind you so that is why a short rest is required between before doing it again. but to do it multiple times is, well, long term taxing.
seriosuly, any one that has had multiple adrenaline surges in the one day will know what im talking about. your muscles get sore and fatigued, you start to feel drained, your daily energy reserves deplete.

so, keep the daily uses, but perhaps add con mod to them. a tougher barbarian is going to be able to push his body through a lot more in a day.



Wel if we asuming the healing hitdice are somthing that is a part of the basic rules woulden't the faitigue you discrive best be represented by the folowing:

you can spend one of your healing hitdice to enter a rage.
this way you woulden't have 2 seperate recources to track just the ability to use recource of healing hitdice in another way
 
So, rage as a conditional encounter power then?

Maybe the conditions should depend on the type of rage being used? Some conditions might be more situational than others (ie taking fire damage), but that shouldn't be a problem so long as you have more than one type of rage to trigger from. But I'm not sure how that can happen while simultaneously satisfying the "Barbarian = straightforward" criteria.


well IF you go the conditional trigger path (i personally wouldnt though) perhaps you could treat it like fighter manuveurs, you have a list of potential triggers, you start with one or two triggers, as you level you gain more.
My thoughts -

That martial classes were working with bonus dice and a flat damage bonus formerly bothered me a little. Now it bothers me more. That the martial damage bonus and the martial damage dice are sitting in the table makes the Rage damage bonus - which is supposed to be one of the coolest things about the class - look less awesome. (Plus they work slightly different ly, since the rage damage bonus applies to non-first attacks.)

Permanent advantage is also a bad idea, because it means that the barbarian has no reason to ever seek advantage from any other source while raging, and by mid-levels that's most combat most days. (The restriction that you must attack every turn to maintain the rage isn't totally insigificant.)

Feral Instinct gives advantage on initiative rolls, but isn't worded as advantage. Are we already in a place where we're letting advantage stack with other similar bonuses in that way?

As cool as unlimited rage is as a capstone, it might be in the interest of future design space to just have a cap on it instead. (Unless we're going the PF "level 20 is crazyland" route, which is totally fine.)
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Personally, i dislike conditional rage because it means the player doesn't have the choice to decide when his Barbarian rages. And i dislike rages on an encounter basis because it means Barbarian rages every encounter.



You could have a combination of the 2
A number of daily uses that can be entered volentarely and include the rule when you are reduced to less then 1/2 your hitpoints you can enter a rage without spending one of the daily uses of your rage ability.

 
I really like the barbarian. I would like the other "flavors" of barbarian to not all have the rage mechanic. I mean, I like the rage mechanic in Next. It's great. But not ALL barbarians will rage. What about the barbarian's shaman? What about the barbarians that are a bit more calm, composed, and skilled with their attacks?

I would imagine the "flavors" will be more clan based, which would be a cool idea. But not all barbarians should get rage every day, just like not all rogue's should get sneak attack (again, a mechaic I enjoy, but it's not for EVERY rogue). 
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
I really like the barbarian. I would like the other "flavors" of barbarian to not all have the rage mechanic. I mean, I like the rage mechanic in Next. It's great. But not ALL barbarians will rage. What about the barbarian's shaman? What about the barbarians that are a bit more calm, composed, and skilled with their attacks?

I would imagine the "flavors" will be more clan based, which would be a cool idea. But not all barbarians should get rage every day, just like not all rogue's should get sneak attack (again, a mechaic I enjoy, but it's not for EVERY rogue). 



make this class the beserker and have a barbarian background ?
I just hope there are options for other types of rages,  but so far great start.


If mike mearls coment about Ws comeing back as a multi attack option, this will be the second best class in the game.  

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Personally, i dislike conditional rage because it means the player doesn't have the choice to decide when his Barbarian rages. And i dislike rages on an encounter basis because it means Barbarian rages every encounter.



You and I think alike.

I like a distinct raged and unrage mode for barbarians and both used.
Especially if the barbarian absorbs the warden. I don't want him in angry tree mode every fight.

Conditional rage would put to much DM reliance in the game unless you give the barbarian a whole mess of triggers (that the player has to remember).

orzel just want to turn green and smash puny enemy

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!



a barbarian rages, they build up adrenaline, fury, whatever power source. this keepss going until they get a moment to calm down. this can temporarily wind you so that is why a short rest is required between before doing it again. but to do it multiple times is, well, long term taxing.
seriosuly, any one that has had multiple adrenaline surges in the one day will know what im talking about. your muscles get sore and fatigued, you start to feel drained, your daily energy reserves deplete.

so, keep the daily uses, but perhaps add con mod to them. a tougher barbarian is going to be able to push his body through a lot more in a day.



Wel if we asuming the healing hitdice are somthing that is a part of the basic rules woulden't the faitigue you discrive best be represented by the folowing:

you can spend one of your healing hitdice to enter a rage.
this way you woulden't have 2 seperate recources to track just the ability to use recource of healing hitdice in another way
 


i see it as different. raging is an adrenaline rush. recovering from that is different to recovering from being attacked
Personally, i dislike conditional rage because it means the player doesn't have the choice to decide when his Barbarian rages. And i dislike rages on an encounter basis because it means Barbarian rages every encounter.



You could have a combination of the 2
A number of daily uses that can be entered volentarely and include the rule when you are reduced to less then 1/2 your hitpoints you can enter a rage without spending one of the daily uses of your rage ability.

 



Heh. That idea made me smile. Reminds me of Desperation Moves from King of Fighters. But the triggered rages should probably not be as good as a daily rage, I'd reckon.

So, thoughts on a dual longsword wielding, naked wood elf barbarian?
Butthead: Uhuhuhuh. Wood.

The level 18 ability doesn't sit well with me. At least for that level. A second chance attack you can't do anything else after seems rather weak for level 18, especially when you can make everyone around you rage at level 15. I could see giving that out at level 7 and moving everything else up though.
It gives the Barbarian another chance to keep their rage active and pile on the damage with MDD/Rage damage bonus. Make that two extra chances (advantage with Strength attacks while raging), and two extras chance to crit as well. That thing is much stronger than you're discrediting it for.

Personally, i dislike conditional rage because it means the player doesn't have the choice to decide when his Barbarian rages. And i dislike rages on an encounter basis because it means Barbarian rages every encounter.



You could have a combination of the 2
A number of daily uses that can be entered volentarely and include the rule when you are reduced to less then 1/2 your hitpoints you can enter a rage without spending one of the daily uses of your rage ability.

 



Heh. That idea made me smile. Reminds me of Desperation Moves from King of Fighters. But the triggered rages should probably not be as good as a daily rage, I'd reckon.




Great.
Now I want to make a crazy barbarian/monk with flaming slashing hands.

Oorochi Iori: KYOOOOOOOO!


---

It seems the barbarian will be some throwing weapons to keep the attacks going.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!