Making a holy Paladin (or knight)

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heey...im Starting a new character...want him to become a holy paladin or other heavy armored class...any ideas?
Crusader from Tome of Battle.
^This^
It's better than any of your other options, like pally, marshal, knight, or samurai.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
The crusader is pretty much your best option by far (although with oodles of substitutions you can make the paladin a bit more magical and competitive, it's still going to be harder to play than a crusader). Crusaders are easy to build, hard to screw up, and work just fine in the single-class (their biggest problem is that their stance timing sucks).

Books allowed, starting level, race, ability scores, DM's goals, and the rest of the team? We kind of need to know this stuff to be able to help.

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Crusader is or cleric are probably your best options. If you have anything more specific about the concept we can probably help you out a little more. 


Books you can use, Level to start at, house rules, tactics you would find interesting?

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To expand on the above post:

Crusaders have access naturally to three disciplines:  Devoted Spirit (counterstriking, zealous devotion), Stone Dragon (strength, power, defensive qualities), and White Raven (helping allies, concerted effort).  They also have proficiency in everything non-exotic, so they can easily become heavily armored.  Your class abilities also help you stay alive (Steely Resolve allows you to delay damage to yourself, Indomitable Sould grants you your Charisma bonus to Will saves, Zealous Surge allows you a second savings throw once a day, and Mettle lets you negate something that has a lesser effect on a successful Fort or Will save).



There are a few things, though, that I don't like about Crusaders:

1.  Heavy armor generally doesn't come into play unless you're going to be standing there in the middle of a battle.  The movement restrictions of the heavy armor make it so that it's tough for you to reach any party member that may need help.  They're also generally hugely expensive.

2.  The way the Crusader plays with their maneuvers is rather weird.  You start combat with two random readied maneuvers;  at the end of your turn, you get another one (again, randomly determined).  It makes it so that you don't know what's coming next...which can hurt.


I'd suggest a Warblade (if you're going Tome of Battle)...they've got a number of benefits over a Crusader:

1.  Proficiency in all simple and martial melee weapons (including thrown weapons), as well as all light and medium armors and shields (barring tower).  Yeah, this is less than the Crusader, but you're also much more mobile (and you're not spending a fortune on your armor).  The Warblade also has a higher HD (d12 vs. a Crusader's d10)...it's only a slight increase (6.5 HP on average per die vs. 5.5 HP average), but it's still an increase.

2.  The Warblade has access to five disciplines:    Diamond Mind (mind over matter, time manipulation), Iron Heart (pure weapon skill), Stone Dragon (as above), Tiger Claw (two-weapon offense), and White Raven (as above).  This grants them a wider variation of abilities to choose from;  I don't think I need to explain why more is better ;)

3.  You only lose one maneuver known (14/7/4 for Crusaders, 13/7/4 for Warblades), so it's a wash here.

4.  Your class abilities are much more interesting.  Battle Clarity grants you your Int bonus to your Reflex saves, Weapon Aptitude has multiple benefits (you can qualify for feats that require a Fighter class level and you can also switch the chosen weapon for feats that apply to only one weapon), Uncanny Dodge (and its upgrade) is always good, Battle Ardor grants you your Int bonus to rolls to confirm crits, Battle Cunning grants you your Int bonus to damage against flat-footed or flanked opponents, Battle Skill grants you your Int bonus to several opposing checks (bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, and trip), Battle Mastery grants you your Int bonus to attack and damage on AoOs, and Stance Mastery allows you to be in two stances at once...plus you get four bonus feats (drawn from a small list).

5.  The skill list of a Warblade lends itself more to combat than does a Crusader's list.

6.  The Warblade starts combat with all readied maneuvers available (instead of two random ones) and can recharge expended maneuvers as a swift action (followed by a melee attack or a standard action to do nothing).


From the looks of the classes, you can draw the following parallels between the classes in the ToB and core classes:

Crusader - Paladin
Swordsage - Rogue/Ranger/Monk (a bastardized combination of them)
Warblade - Barbarian


In the end

For a heavy-armored character, your best bet would be the Crusader.  I just wanted to point out their weak points.



Edit

Thanks, draco, for pointing out my alignment mistake.  I didn't even take a look at the sample Crusader a few pages later.
Alsebra's mostly right. One of the things he's wrong about is alignment - the only alignment barred to crusaders is True Neutral. Also, a Warblade is better analogized with a fighter than a barbarian. Everything else he said is correct, but I still prefer the crusader.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I was going for "holy warrior" rather than "knight" with my suggestion.

It basically depends on what his goals are... We need to hear more before we can make a better suggestion.
I want him to brightjustice
I want him to brightjustice

Okay. Could you repeat that in English?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
...
I want him to bring Justice...Armor based Tank 
In that case, use a crusader, or a fighter/crusader multiclass.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I want him to bring Justice...

Okay, that's much more clear.

I'm going to jump on the Crusader wagon. Just crusader 20 is probably the way to go. That said, an Idiot Crusader is really cool, though it may be a bit OP for your games.
Armor based Tank 

Doesn't work. There's no such thing as tanking in D&D. At all. It just doesn't exist. Also, armor is generally quite inefficient.

Also, we need to know what sources are allowed.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I'm also gonna jump on the Crusader bandwagon.  They're fun, fit what you're asking for, work well and are pretty tough to mess up.  I actually played a Crusader from 1-20 before and didn't have too much trouble keeping up with the rest of the folks.  That ranged combat stuff can be a bear but that's not what I designed the character for.
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Nice...Crusader it is! What stats you recommend in a 28 point buy?
Str>Con>Int/Wis>Cha>Dex
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Dex as last? isn't Dex boosting AC? wich i am aiming for...
and still...how many pojnts in each? 
You want to wear armor. The heavier armor is, the more it limits your Dexterity bonus. For example, an ordinary set of full plate armor limits your Dex bonus to +1, so if you want to wear full plate not made of mithral or another special material, putting more than 13 in Dex is an absolute waste.
You want to wear armor. The heavier armor is, the more it limits your Dexterity bonus. For example, an ordinary set of full plate armor limits your Dex bonus to +1, so if you want to wear full plate not made of mithral or another special material, putting more than 13 in Dex is an absolute waste.

Well, that's true for the AC aspect of it, anyway.

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If you're a "heavy armor" type player you probably aren't a "ranged" player which removes one more use of DEX.  Of course there is a feat that lets you use WIS for ranged attacks but that's a different issue.  If you don't need DEX for AC or attacks that leaves skills and save.  Now DEX does govern a lot of good skills but many of those skills will also see the armor's ACP when is the system's way of saying "forget about these skills if you wear heavy armor" so we could dismiss DEX's value for skills when wearing heavy armor.  That just leave REF save and while it is a commonly used save it is almost always done to resist/reduce damage and damage is something that can be ignored at times.
 
If you're a "heavy armor" type player you probably aren't a "ranged" player which removes one more use of DEX.  Of course there is a feat that lets you use WIS for ranged attacks but that's a different issue.  If you don't need DEX for AC or attacks that leaves skills and save.  Now DEX does govern a lot of good skills but many of those skills will also see the armor's ACP when is the system's way of saying "forget about these skills if you wear heavy armor" so we could dismiss DEX's value for skills when wearing heavy armor.  That just leave REF save and while it is a commonly used save it is almost always done to resist/reduce damage and damage is something that can be ignored at times.
 



Especially with a Crusader.  ;)  I mean, I know cuz I did it. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

And if you really want to go ranged and don't have a decent Wisdom score, you've still got throwing weapons as a purely Strength-based option with Brutal Throw.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Str>Con>Int/Wis>Cha>Dex



If you're a "heavy armor" type player you probably aren't a "ranged" player which removes one more use of DEX.  Of course there is a feat that lets you use WIS for ranged attacks but that's a different issue.  If you don't need DEX for AC or attacks that leaves skills and save.  Now DEX does govern a lot of good skills but many of those skills will also see the armor's ACP when is the system's way of saying "forget about these skills if you wear heavy armor" so we could dismiss DEX's value for skills when wearing heavy armor.  That just leave REF save and while it is a commonly used save it is almost always done to resist/reduce damage and damage is something that can be ignored at times.
 


I have to protest against both of these, even for an armored crusader. In fact, especially for an armored crusader. You're not boosting Dexterity for skills nor for AC. You're boosting it for initiative and Combat Reflexes. 14 would be a decent number for this.

Devoted Spirit's early stances - Martial Spirit, Iron Guard's Glare, and Thicket of Blades - along with a few boosts (perhaps most dramatically Defensive Rebuke) all combine well with AoO pressure. Likewise, Furious Counterstrike gives you bonus damage on each attack - but you're not going to be using two weapons, so you get your extra attacks in through AoOs. The crusader's other maneuvers lend themselves well to charging or breaking through enemy lines (so you're very often exactly where you need to be in order to act as an AoO "tank") as well as boosting your survivabilty while you're under fire (shutting down enemy AoOs, absorbing/healing/deflecting damage, or gaining action advantage).

While you can build a crusader without using Combat Reflexes, doing so typically involves a theme build that doesn't play to the crusader's unique maneuver selection. (I'm playing alongside one right now, who's focusing on Song of the White Raven, but the more typical non-Combat-Reflexes approach is based around mastering the crusader's maneuver recovery - the Heavy Crusader in my signature is an example of this.)

If it helps, you might consider reading what I wrote in the spoiler block here (tanking really isn't what you think it is).

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.