Corpsejack Menace + Master Biomancer

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Hello,

If I control Master Biomancer and I cast Corpsejack Menace, will with how many +1/+1 counters will be placed on the Menace as it enters the battlefield ? with one or two +1/+1 counter s on it ?

Thanks in advance.
2

Corpsejack Menace doesn't apply to itself because it doesn't specifically mention itself

if it said "on Corpsejack Menace or a creature you control" it would enter with 4
proud member of the 2011 community team
A similar question is awaiting an [O] response on the judge forum

I suspect the answer will be two and that Corpsejack Menace's ability will not apply to itself.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

there is kinda sorta precedence to this

a persisting Melira, Sylvok Outcast will get a -1/-1 counter, while a persisting Melira's Keeper will not
proud member of the 2011 community team
Similar to the way Blood Moon does not affect how a Hallowed Fountain would enter the battlefield (you may still pay 2 life or it enters tapped) - I would imagine that since Corpsejack Menace isn't on the battlefield to apply its own replacement effect, Master Biomancer will only add two +1/+1 counters.


614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.



Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

a persisting Melira, Sylvok Outcast will get a -1/-1 counter, while a persisting Melira's Keeper will not

OK, but according to which rule?

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
proud member of the 2011 community team

I belive this one is required for completedness:


112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.

...because neither Meliras fit the criteria described in 614.1c-d. 

the Meliras modify the persist replacement effect, so it applies

but you're right, your rule is better
proud member of the 2011 community team
the Meliras modify the persist replacement effect, so it applies

I believe it was determined that persist isn't a replacement effect because it doesn't match any of the wordings of 614.1

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

I believe it was determined that persist isn't a replacement effect because it doesn't match any of the wordings of 614.1

No. Persist is an ability (702.77), and that ability creates two effects. The first effect is a zone-change one-shot effect (601.10). The second effect is a replacement effect (112.6g).

112.6g doesn't apply to persist. It isn't one effect putting it onto the battlefield and another effect changing how that works. It's just one effect putting it onto the battlefield with the counter on it. However, there isn't anything that cares if the counter is the result of a replacement effect or not.