DLCR: Adaptive Snapjaw

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Todays other GTC card to rate is...

Adaptive Snapjaw

 
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5.0: First pick no matter what.  I will always play this card.
4.5: Splashable and first pick worthy.
4.0: First pick pack 1.
3.5: Early pick though not always a first pick.
3.0: Solid early/mid pick.
2.5: Solid pick in color.
2.0: Should generally make the deck if in this color.
1.5: Decent filler.
1.0: 23rd card if you have to.
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in.
0.0: I will never put this card into my deck (main deck or after sideboarding).


This guy seems ok.  At worst he'll block almost anything and kill it.  And the low toughness is nice for the evolve part of him.  Lack of trample really hurts though.

1.5

Discuss! 
Eh, I'm not nearly as enamored with this guy as some.  I found myself looking for ways not to include him yesterday, and never really hit a situation where I really wanted a fragile 6 power evolve enabler.  Given his turn 5 play, its unlikely that he'll have much of an effect on the board really as a complete lack of evasion or survivability really hurts him.  He's a wall at best and not a particularly good one. 

I'll give him about 1 to 1.5.  There are plenty of things I'd put in before him, and I'd have to have a pretty mediocre pool to include him.
5 mana to give every evolve creature on the board a +1/+1 counter is already worth it; this guy can easilyy add 10-11 power to the board, then get bigger later.

I'll give him a 2.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

This guy will Evolve things.  If he's trading, hopefully it's up and not down.

C+.
5 mana to give every evolve creature on the board a +1/+1 counter is already worth it; this guy can easilyy add 10-11 power to the board, then get bigger later.

I'll give him a 2.



Maybe draft will treat him better, but in practice I rarely saw him used to great effect.  At most I ever saw from him was maybe a couple +1/+1 counters on the evolve creatures, only to eat a Mugging the next turn, or something similar.  Sure he ate some removal, but he ate cheap common removal and burned up your entire turn 5 play.  Against Boros it was even worse, as there are more than a couple ways to give your creatures first strike, making him a terrible blocker.  Orzhov will just laugh at it as it is either removed, chump blocked with anything small, or what-have you.

It seems like one of those "In theory, it's good, but in practice it just doesn't work".

However, as I said draft my treat him better where you might be able to snag quite a few evolvers for him to enable.  Still, I'm not sure if I'd really want him in my 5-slot. 
5 mana to give every evolve creature on the board a +1/+1 counter is already worth it; this guy can easilyy add 10-11 power to the board, then get bigger later.

I'll give him a 2.



Maybe draft will treat him better, but in practice I rarely saw him used to great effect.  At most I ever saw from him was maybe a couple +1/+1 counters on the evolve creatures, only to eat a Mugging the next turn, or something similar.  Sure he ate some removal, but he ate cheap common removal and burned up your entire turn 5 play.  Against Boros it was even worse, as there are more than a couple ways to give your creatures first strike, making him a terrible blocker.  Orzhov will just laugh at it as it is either removed, chump blocked with anything small, or what-have you.

It seems like one of those "In theory, it's good, but in practice it just doesn't work".

However, as I said draft my treat him better where you might be able to snag quite a few evolvers for him to enable.  Still, I'm not sure if I'd really want him in my 5-slot. 



I played him in my undefeated Gruul deck. When he was removed I was happy, since I could still cast fatties/bloodrush dudes and that meant my opponent wasted removal. When he wasn't removed he made an awesome bloodrush target. That doesn't seem like a 1.5 to me, in either theory or practice.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

5 mana to give every evolve creature on the board a +1/+1 counter is already worth it; this guy can easilyy add 10-11 power to the board, then get bigger later.

I'll give him a 2.



Maybe draft will treat him better, but in practice I rarely saw him used to great effect.  At most I ever saw from him was maybe a couple +1/+1 counters on the evolve creatures, only to eat a Mugging the next turn, or something similar.  Sure he ate some removal, but he ate cheap common removal and burned up your entire turn 5 play.  Against Boros it was even worse, as there are more than a couple ways to give your creatures first strike, making him a terrible blocker.  Orzhov will just laugh at it as it is either removed, chump blocked with anything small, or what-have you.

It seems like one of those "In theory, it's good, but in practice it just doesn't work".

However, as I said draft my treat him better where you might be able to snag quite a few evolvers for him to enable.  Still, I'm not sure if I'd really want him in my 5-slot. 



I played him in my undefeated Gruul deck. When he was removed I was happy, since I could still cast fatties/bloodrush dudes and that meant my opponent wasted removal. When he wasn't removed he made an awesome bloodrush target. That doesn't seem like a 1.5 to me, in either theory or practice.



At my pre-release events, I saw many people play it, even simic, and I never once saw it meaningfully impact any game.  It was either chump-blocked out, acted as a wall against some non-meaningful target(As all the other attackers were something that could easily get around or deal with it), or just sit there doing nothing.  And casting a 1 cmc spell to remove your turn 5 play is  hardly "wasting" removal.  Your case doesn't prove anything really about its strengths, as there are a number of factors involved that may have made it only incidentally successful.

That said, I'm going to have to see how the set drafts before I an say it's very good at all, and more than just mediocre filler at best.
I didn't actually play with or against him during the prerelease, but a friend had him in his deck and I got to watch a few of his games. rstnme seemed to have about the same opinion as what I saw, he evolves everything and then either trades with someone big or beats down. 

2.0 
5 mana to give every evolve creature on the board a +1/+1 counter is already worth it; this guy can easilyy add 10-11 power to the board, then get bigger later.

I'll give him a 2.



Maybe draft will treat him better, but in practice I rarely saw him used to great effect.  At most I ever saw from him was maybe a couple +1/+1 counters on the evolve creatures, only to eat a Mugging the next turn, or something similar.  Sure he ate some removal, but he ate cheap common removal and burned up your entire turn 5 play.  Against Boros it was even worse, as there are more than a couple ways to give your creatures first strike, making him a terrible blocker.  Orzhov will just laugh at it as it is either removed, chump blocked with anything small, or what-have you.

It seems like one of those "In theory, it's good, but in practice it just doesn't work".

However, as I said draft my treat him better where you might be able to snag quite a few evolvers for him to enable.  Still, I'm not sure if I'd really want him in my 5-slot. 



I played him in my undefeated Gruul deck. When he was removed I was happy, since I could still cast fatties/bloodrush dudes and that meant my opponent wasted removal. When he wasn't removed he made an awesome bloodrush target. That doesn't seem like a 1.5 to me, in either theory or practice.



At my pre-release events, I saw many people play it, even simic, and I never once saw it meaningfully impact any game.  It was either chump-blocked out, acted as a wall against some non-meaningful target(As all the other attackers were something that could easily get around or deal with it), or just sit there doing nothing.  And casting a 1 cmc spell to remove your turn 5 play is  hardly "wasting" removal.  Your case doesn't prove anything really about its strengths, as there are a number of factors involved that may have made it only incidentally successful.

That said, I'm going to have to see how the set drafts before I an say it's very good at all, and more than just mediocre filler at best.



Actually, since the amount of removal in a limited deck isn't infinite, and particularly for sealed events it isn't usually filling out all 7 slots, having someone use 1 of their removal spells on a creature regardless of what removal spell it is generally is good.

Or, in other terms: "dies to removal" has never been a good argument.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.



Actually, since the amount of removal in a limited deck isn't infinite, and particularly for sealed events it isn't usually filling out all 7 slots, having someone use 1 of their removal spells on a creature regardless of what removal spell it is generally is good.

Or, in other terms: "dies to removal" has never been a good argument.



*Rubs eyes*

That was only one argument, and not even the full argument at that.  There is a huge difference between "Dies to removal", and dies to "All removal, including the cheapest and most common removal in the set that most things at 5 cmc do not".  There is a difference between dying to, say, Grisly Spectacle and dying to Mugging.  Dying to Spectacle is a fine trade off if you play the Snapjaw, as it can target most everything in the set, and getting rid of that removal spell leaves you open for other things.  Dying to Mugging is just a joke, and you've eaten up your entire turn 5 play for that.

It also does not trade well at all, either on the attack or on defense unless your opponent is profoundly stupid.  Almost every 2 cmc creature will trade with it, and in many cases will simply take it out. 

It can have a meaningful impact *if* you have decent enough board position with a ton of evolve creatures on the board.  But frankly, even at that point there are other 5-drops I'd want to play, either in Simic or in Gruul.


Actually, since the amount of removal in a limited deck isn't infinite, and particularly for sealed events it isn't usually filling out all 7 slots, having someone use 1 of their removal spells on a creature regardless of what removal spell it is generally is good.

Or, in other terms: "dies to removal" has never been a good argument.



*Rubs eyes*

That was only one argument, and not even the full argument at that.  There is a huge difference between "Dies to removal", and dies to "All removal, including the cheapest and most common removal in the set that most things at 5 cmc do not".  There is a difference between dying to, say, Grisly Spectacle and dying to Mugging.  Dying to Spectacle is a fine trade off if you play the Snapjaw, as it can target most everything in the set, and getting rid of that removal spell leaves you open for other things.  Dying to Mugging is just a joke, and you've eaten up your entire turn 5 play for that.

It also does not trade well at all, either on the attack or on defense unless your opponent is profoundly stupid.  Almost every 2 cmc creature will trade with it, and in many cases will simply take it out. 

It can have a meaningful impact *if* you have decent enough board position with a ton of evolve creatures on the board.  But frankly, even at that point there are other 5-drops I'd want to play, either in Simic or in Gruul.



*Palms Face*

So it's good when it's good or when the other player's bad, and it's bad when it's bad.

Look. You cast this, you're going to put if you have even an iota of skill 2-3 +1/+1 counters on the board. That's 8-9 power for five mana. Even if this dies, some of that power stays on the friggin' board.

Or...

You attack with this, they chump block, you throw a friggin' trample bloodrush onto it.

Or...

You throw aerial manuver onto it or something else to give it evasion... say, way of the thief?

Or...

You use it to cast Miming Slime before attacking into their chump blockers.

Or...

You employ basic strategy in your deck building and casting your playables.

I don't know why you're arguing, I only ranked it a 2. There are better 5-drops. So? We're not talking about them. 2 toughness sucks, but it has evolve so even that can go up; your opponent has to deal with this by the turn it comes out, or you're not casting this right.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

This is fine in Simic and passable in Gruul. 1.5-2.0.
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This card appears to be quite playable. Not the best pick, yeah, but he can fit into a deck. I don't agree with the "cheap removal" argument. lyev skyknight dies to electrickery, which is a highly available card, and mercurial chemister dies to auger spree, etc, are these bad cards?
This card appears to be quite playable. Not the best pick, yeah, but he can fit into a deck. I don't agree with the "cheap removal" argument. lyev skyknight dies to electrickery, which is a highly available card, and mercurial chemister dies to auger spree, etc, are these bad cards?



And that is comparing apples to bananas to dollar store hotdogs.  The thing with removal is that if something were to die to cheap removal it needs to be worth the risk.  Skyknight is good as it is an efficient flyer for 3.  Further, its ability works even if answered.  And, you know, built in evasion.  So fewer answers.  Chemister is worth the risk of removal, as he wrecks house by himself, with no support needed. 

This is just a big fragile body in a setwhere there are plenty of options available.  Even in simic, i can think of plenty of four and five drops Id want over it, and i would have to have a very mediocre pool to consider putting this in at such a vital part of the curve.  Thing is that if this is the only thing that will evolve creatures, then you should be winning anyway.  And if that werent the case, then your other options are almost alwys better.

Bloodrushing him is fine and all, but bloodrushin any beater is good.  This says less about snapjaw and more about bloodrush. 

And here's the rub:  An easily removed creature that has minimal impact on the board unless built around, and can be easily replaced most of the time by better options, is simply not worth it.  If you are winning with such a creature on the field, the creature is only incidental to your success.   It is likely you would be winning anyway

If all you got off my post was "it dies to cheap removal, thus its bad", then you sorely missed the point.  It dies to cheap removal, is useless without support that is simply good on anything, trades extremely poorly, and has little meaningful value beyond being an evolve trigger with damage potential.  And as isaid, ther are better options at that point.
I think you're missing your point.

First off, not every deck runs mugging. Statistically there are only going to be 2, maybe 3 copies of mugging running around in a draft tops, so let's get that red herring out of the way right now.

Next, you're already admitting this thing has to be removed. I can't think of a single 1.5 or 1 card that has to be removed. You can't either so don't try.

Third, you're saying this would be a dumb thing to attack into if you can't remove it. That's pretty sweet.

As for your other points...

Trading poorly is a result of playing poorly.

6 power that adds more power to the board is ahead of curve. This is the opposite of "needing to be built around."

"An evolve trigger with damage potential" is a pretty good thing for a 2.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut we passed that "agree to disagree" point of the convo a while ago, it's just odd that your points against the card are exactly why I think it's better than you think it is :D

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I think you're missing your point.

First off, not every deck runs mugging. Statistically there are only going to be 2, maybe 3 copies of mugging running around in a draft tops, so let's get that red herring out of the way right now.

Next, you're already admitting this thing has to be removed. I can't think of a single 1.5 or 1 card that has to be removed. You can't either so don't try.

Third, you're saying this would be a dumb thing to attack into if you can't remove it. That's pretty sweet.

As for your other points...

Trading poorly is a result of playing poorly.

6 power that adds more power to the board is ahead of curve. This is the opposite of "needing to be built around."

"An evolve trigger with damage potential" is a pretty good thing for a 2.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut we passed that "agree to disagree" point of the convo a while ago, it's just odd that your points against the card are exactly why I think it's better than you think it is :D



And my major point is that there other commons and uncommons at the 4-5 CMC level that perform its job just as equally most of the time, and are far more resiliant.  And I never said it has to be removed-merely that it is simple to remove and that there are a number of answers for it.  Bloodrush is a moot point with this-almost anything at the 5 cmc slot is going to be doing the same exact thing as this, albeit maybe with 1 or 2 points less damage.  In the decks that would *want* to run this, that's a big-friggin woop.  The fact is, with the exception of a handful of Commons/Uncommons that provide evasion that would be good on *any* 5-drop in set, this does very little and is easily answered by many 2 drops in the set. 

Frankly, there are far more worrisome 5-drops in the common/uncommon slot than this, many of which are in Blue/Green.  The point I'm getting at is this:  You can get the Evolve trigger off from most of the other 4-5 drops in common, and are far more resilient.

With that in mind, I simply cannot give it much higher than a 1.5 at best.  It'll go in if I have to, but frankly I won't include it if I have other options available.  Because this simply only gets mileage if you are utilizing it with something that will give anything mileage.
Actually i-rock I'm pretty impressed with your arguments, and I appreciate you writing all that out. Also rstnme has a point too. There are times when 6 power will be relevant. I'm definitely going to think about these arguments a bit more, thank you.
Of the green 5-drops I'd prefer Rust Scarab and Zhur-Taa Swine over this one.  For the amount of work you need to do to make this guy a relevant board presence, Ruination Wurm for 6 seems much better, too.  Still playable if you need to fill out a creature slot, I'd give it a 1.5.
I think this one is at least a 2.0. I don't love the base stats, but it is likely to make other creatures evolve and to be evolved itself.
2.0. Really good in slower games.
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oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
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Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
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This is just a big fragile body in a setwhere there are plenty of options available.  Even in simic, i can think of plenty of four and five drops Id want over it, and i would have to have a very mediocre pool to consider putting this in at such a vital part of the curve.  Thing is that if this is the only thing that will evolve creatures, then you should be winning anyway.  And if that werent the case, then your other options are almost alwys better.


Frankly, there are far more worrisome 5-drops in the common/uncommon slot than this, many of which are in Blue/Green.  The point I'm getting at is this:  You can get the Evolve trigger off from most of the other 4-5 drops in common, and are far more resilient.



Other 5-drops in Simic colors:
Leyline Phantom
Mindeye Drake
Rust Scarab

That's all of them.  Drake and Scarab are obviously better, but they're both uncommon, so for a fair comparison you're looking at either this or Leyline Phantom.  Between those two, it's hard to say which one I would rather run.  Phantom has the better stats, but it only hits once before you have to recast it.  And with evolve, Snapjaw is very likely going to get bigger unless he's removed immediately.

Also, Simic/Evolve is a deck that will be trying to pick up Crowned Ceratok and Sapphire Drake, either of which will make this guy a lot better.
Timmy card for sure. 1.5 sounds about right.

If this guy is filling your 5 slot than something is wrong with your deck.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
Timmy card for sure. 1.5 sounds about right.

If this guy is filling your 5 slot than something is wrong with your deck.


leyline phantom or a hole in your curve is better?
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
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56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Timmy card for sure. 1.5 sounds about right.

If this guy is filling your 5 slot than something is wrong with your deck.


leyline phantom or a hole in your curve is better?



Both seem pretty bad...what's your point?

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
He's saying there actually aren't a lot of 5-drops in this guy's colors.

In I-rock's defense, he was including the 4-drop slot in his bash of the snapjaw. So there's more going on there.
He's saying there actually aren't a lot of 5-drops in this guy's colors. In I-rock's defense, he was including the 4-drop slot in his bash of the snapjaw. So there's more going on there.



You don't have to have x # of 5 drops.

You can play another good four drop, a really good six drop, or another little guy.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
If you include 4-drops, there are another 4 playable creatures (not counting the artifact).  Crowned Ceratok, Ivy Lane Denizen, Keymaster Rogue, and Scab-Clan Charger.  The Ceratok and Rogue I would definitely play over Snapjaw, the other two maybe not.  Charger has a good size to evolve your other stuff, but is worse on his own.  Denizen is potentially better, but starts off as a 4-drop 2/3, which is bad.  He can add counters to things, but whatever you're playing after him would likely evolve Snapjaw as well.
If you include 4-drops, there are another 4 playable creatures (not counting the artifact).  Crowned Ceratok, Ivy Lane Denizen, Keymaster Rogue, and Scab-Clan Charger.  The Ceratok and Rogue I would definitely play over Snapjaw, the other two maybe not.  Charger has a good size to evolve your other stuff, but is worse on his own.  Denizen is potentially better, but starts off as a 4-drop 2/3, which is bad.  He can add counters to things, but whatever you're playing after him would likely evolve Snapjaw as well.



All four of those creatures are quite a bit better.

 But you're forgeting something...we DO get to play uncommons and rares, believe it or not.

So by your own list we have four plus whatever rares or uncommons or splash creatures we use.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).
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It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).



gruul decks already most-likely out number you increature count and it's probably going to get mugged.

Against Dimir this is an average card, I guess.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
Depends on how many other creatures you pull with evolve, I'd say. If you've already got a board presence, when this guy hits, his power is certain to evolve everything else on the battlefield.
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It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).



gruul decks already most-likely out number you increature count and it's probably going to get mugged.

Against Dimir this is an average card, I guess.




This whole removal assumption people are making about Mugging doesn't make sense to me. In RtR I didn't assume every single black deck was playing Stab Wound, because most of them weren't. So how you can judge one card based on the occurence of common removal in the limited format is beyond me.

And aren't people generally going to cast mugging early on to remove evolve creatures that might get out of hand? Or creatures with evasion? So this magical one-turn window of potential suckiness is incredibly improbable.

Lobster's right, it seems like people are only seeing the worst of this card. In my mirror matches, and against Boros, and Dimir and Orzhov, this guy housed.

In draft he's not a p4 or anything, but probably a p6 or p7.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

He's just not very good for a 5-drop. If he evolves three creatures and scores a good removal than good for him, I just will pick this very low. i'm confident I can draft something better for the deck than this thing.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).



gruul decks already most-likely out number you increature count and it's probably going to get mugged.

Against Dimir this is an average card, I guess.




This whole removal assumption people are making about Mugging doesn't make sense to me. In RtR I didn't assume every single black deck was playing Stab Wound, because most of them weren't. So how you can judge one card based on the occurence of common removal in the limited format is beyond me.

And aren't people generally going to cast mugging early on to remove evolve creatures that might get out of hand? Or creatures with evasion? So this magical one-turn window of potential suckiness is incredibly improbable.

Lobster's right, it seems like people are only seeing the worst of this card. In my mirror matches, and against Boros, and Dimir and Orzhov, this guy housed.

In draft he's not a p4 or anything, but probably a p6 or p7.



Once again, that's only part of the argument.  The fact that he dies to easily the cheapest and least effective removal in the set at mid-game, on top of all the other removal, is a huge hit for him.  The fact that he trades with almost every 2-drop is another one.  The point being is that for a 5-drop he simply doesn't have the effect on the board that you are making it out to be, with many other options fulfilling his role *most* of the time, and that it is incredibly easy to answer.  Your only compelling argument is that he's really good with many cards that are good when used in conjunction with *anything*.  

The point isn't "He dies to mugging, thus is bad".  The point is that "It dies to the worst removal in the set at midgame, can easily be traded with any 2-drop in the set, and is only really effectively better than other options in the 4-6 cmc range in a few situations". 

Point is, this will be blocked.  And unless you have Ghor-Clan Rampager in your hand, the best you can hope for is throwing out one of your Bloodrush cards in order to *save* it, even if it is chump-blocked.  I will block this all day long with any 2-drop, as I know you will either be forced to ditch a Bloodrush card to save it or let it die to a 2-drop.  And that's a net-gain in my books. 

Further, your argument for Mugging is even worse for the Rampager-which sits at *uncommon*.  I will rarely assume they have the Rampager in hand when I block, with rare exception. 

The real crux of the argument is this:  The fact that it is so easily answered by so many common-level cards is a huge hit against it.  It is answered by the worst removal in the set, on top of every other removal spell.  It is answered by every 2-drop in the set, and many times it's not even going to trade if they have anything with first strike.

The best you can hope for is that it will just sit there looking intimidating, and your opponent doesn't have a single answer for it.  Which would be surprising, considering how easy it is answer with any number of commons/uncommons.  You may think the longer it sits there, the better as it becomes huge!  Well, that also gives your opponent time to solidify board position, not waste their entire turn 5 play on something that has little to no resilience, and quite possibly have any number of answers for it that are far cheaper.

So, in summation:  The argument isn't about Mugging.  Mugging is just one example to a myriad of problems. 

It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).



gruul decks already most-likely out number you increature count and it's probably going to get mugged.

Against Dimir this is an average card, I guess.




This whole removal assumption people are making about Mugging doesn't make sense to me. In RtR I didn't assume every single black deck was playing Stab Wound, because most of them weren't. So how you can judge one card based on the occurence of common removal in the limited format is beyond me.

And aren't people generally going to cast mugging early on to remove evolve creatures that might get out of hand? Or creatures with evasion? So this magical one-turn window of potential suckiness is incredibly improbable.

Lobster's right, it seems like people are only seeing the worst of this card. In my mirror matches, and against Boros, and Dimir and Orzhov, this guy housed.

In draft he's not a p4 or anything, but probably a p6 or p7.



Once again, that's only part of the argument.  The fact that he dies to easily the cheapest and least effective removal in the set at mid-game, on top of all the other removal, is a huge hit for him.  The fact that he trades with almost every 2-drop is another one.  The point being is that for a 5-drop he simply doesn't have the effect on the board that you are making it out to be, with many other options fulfilling his role *most* of the time, and that it is incredibly easy to answer.  Your only compelling argument is that he's really good with many cards that are good when used in conjunction with *anything*.  

The point isn't "He dies to mugging, thus is bad".  The point is that "It dies to the worst removal in the set at midgame, can easily be traded with any 2-drop in the set, and is only really effectively better than other options in the 4-6 cmc range in a few situations". 

Point is, this will be blocked.  And unless you have Ghor-Clan Rampager in your hand, the best you can hope for is throwing out one of your Bloodrush cards in order to *save* it, even if it is chump-blocked.  I will block this all day long with any 2-drop, as I know you will either be forced to ditch a Bloodrush card to save it or let it die to a 2-drop.  And that's a net-gain in my books. 

Further, your argument for Mugging is even worse for the Rampager-which sits at *uncommon*.  I will rarely assume they have the Rampager in hand when I block, with rare exception. 

The real crux of the argument is this:  The fact that it is so easily answered by so many common-level cards is a huge hit against it.  It is answered by the worst removal in the set, on top of every other removal spell.  It is answered by every 2-drop in the set, and many times it's not even going to trade if they have anything with first strike.

The best you can hope for is that it will just sit there looking intimidating, and your opponent doesn't have a single answer for it.  Which would be surprising, considering how easy it is answer with any number of commons/uncommons.  You may think the longer it sits there, the better as it becomes huge!  Well, that also gives your opponent time to solidify board position, not waste their entire turn 5 play on something that has little to no resilience, and quite possibly have any number of answers for it that are far cheaper.

So, in summation:  The argument isn't about Mugging.  Mugging is just one example to a myriad of problems. 




Pretty much this

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
It's easy to see the worst case of this creature, but I think people are generally a little too low on it. Against the decks where you're trading it for a boar (Boros, Gruul?), you'll probably be fine with that. Against other decks, being able to apply massive pressure is great (forcing Orzhov to give up multiple creatures to block it or Dimir to hold back guys so as to not take 6-7 to the face).



gruul decks already most-likely out number you increature count and it's probably going to get mugged.

Against Dimir this is an average card, I guess.




This whole removal assumption people are making about Mugging doesn't make sense to me. In RtR I didn't assume every single black deck was playing Stab Wound, because most of them weren't. So how you can judge one card based on the occurence of common removal in the limited format is beyond me.

And aren't people generally going to cast mugging early on to remove evolve creatures that might get out of hand? Or creatures with evasion? So this magical one-turn window of potential suckiness is incredibly improbable.

Lobster's right, it seems like people are only seeing the worst of this card. In my mirror matches, and against Boros, and Dimir and Orzhov, this guy housed.

In draft he's not a p4 or anything, but probably a p6 or p7.



Once again, that's only part of the argument.  The fact that he dies to easily the cheapest and least effective removal in the set at mid-game, on top of all the other removal, is a huge hit for him.  The fact that he trades with almost every 2-drop is another one.  The point being is that for a 5-drop he simply doesn't have the effect on the board that you are making it out to be, with many other options fulfilling his role *most* of the time, and that it is incredibly easy to answer.  Your only compelling argument is that he's really good with many cards that are good when used in conjunction with *anything*.  

The point isn't "He dies to mugging, thus is bad".  The point is that "It dies to the worst removal in the set at midgame, can easily be traded with any 2-drop in the set, and is only really effectively better than other options in the 4-6 cmc range in a few situations". 

Point is, this will be blocked.  And unless you have Ghor-Clan Rampager in your hand, the best you can hope for is throwing out one of your Bloodrush cards in order to *save* it, even if it is chump-blocked.  I will block this all day long with any 2-drop, as I know you will either be forced to ditch a Bloodrush card to save it or let it die to a 2-drop.  And that's a net-gain in my books. 

Further, your argument for Mugging is even worse for the Rampager-which sits at *uncommon*.  I will rarely assume they have the Rampager in hand when I block, with rare exception. 

The real crux of the argument is this:  The fact that it is so easily answered by so many common-level cards is a huge hit against it.  It is answered by the worst removal in the set, on top of every other removal spell.  It is answered by every 2-drop in the set, and many times it's not even going to trade if they have anything with first strike.

The best you can hope for is that it will just sit there looking intimidating, and your opponent doesn't have a single answer for it.  Which would be surprising, considering how easy it is answer with any number of commons/uncommons.  You may think the longer it sits there, the better as it becomes huge!  Well, that also gives your opponent time to solidify board position, not waste their entire turn 5 play on something that has little to no resilience, and quite possibly have any number of answers for it that are far cheaper.

So, in summation:  The argument isn't about Mugging.  Mugging is just one example to a myriad of problems. 




I'm not stuck on mugging, I'm tired of hearing it used as an example bc it's a bad example. "Dies to (bad) removal" is still "dies to removal," with the caveat that this probably won't die to it since players like yourself are going to use it to kill bears in the early game. (Also, Mugging is not the worst removal in the set. Guildmages still exist. So do Hellraiser Goblins and a crap-ton of other boros cards. 2 damage early-game is good.)

Your example is also terrible, bc you're talking about how you'd play it, which isn't how anyone else would would play it. Attacking with this (T6) if you had the rampager in your hand makes no sense unless you're going for an alpha strike and they only have weeny blockers. Why on earth wouldn't you, in your own example, just hard-cast the 4-drop rampager and make this guy a 7/3??? It'd two-for-one your "chump bears" then. Your scenario isn't really thought out.

This also isn't answered by every two-drop in the set, but I know you're being hyperbolic. Also, most creatures don't have first strike, so I hardly think this'll trade "many times" with first strike bears unless you're playing like a complete idiot.

Common cards answer uncommons and rares all the time. I remember one time I cast Ultimate Price on a Chaos Imps. Guess what? The imps died, but were still good. Evaluating a card based solely on its answers is backwards logic.

I also don't cast cards I plan to have sit there. I'd only cast this if I could follow-up with support. Oh, yeah, you keep mentioning this card's good with other cards that are good with other cards... or something like that. Basically, I call that deck building. Just wanted to throw that out there.

In summation: I'm really enjoying this back and forth for reasons even I can't articulate. Muahaha.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

If you're going to build a deck around "Timmy's Trap" than all the luck to you my friend!
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
The "Dale Personality" likes to build decks around cards like Obzedat, Ghost Council, Aurelia, the Warleader and Master Biomancer.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
If you're going to build a deck around "Timmy's Trap" than all the luck to you my friend!



lol, I actively avoid building decks around cards I rate 2.0.

Actually, I actively avoid building decks around a single card period. Do people do this in limited? Besides Pack Rat I mean.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

The "Dale Personality" likes to build decks around cards like Obzadat, Ghost Council, Aurelia, the Warleader[/c] and Master Biomancer.



This is the first hit when I search "dale personality":

disney.wikia.com/wiki/Chip_%27n%27_Dale

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I can find the initial source but here is the last time people talked about the personality subsets and I referenced the "Dale Personality".

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge