if you knew your campaign wasn't going to reach paragon ...

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What is a top tier striker to play in a campaign you know isn't going to reach paragon tier?  I see a lot of magnificent strikers on these boards, but a lot of them don't seem to come online until paragon tier.  I 100% know the campaign I am about to start won't reach paragon - level 10 is about when people start getting tired of their characters and want to start something new, and for whatever reason they always want to start at level 1.  I'm fine with this, but I want to adjust accordingly.  I'm looking for something that exceeds striker KPR or DPR benchmarks, while minimizing flirting with the gray area of the rules. I'm not asking for builds, just generic ideas - I can create and post a fleshed out character eventually if needs be.  All material is available.  

To get started, how competitive (again with these restrictions), are slayers/scouts/thieves with the charge package?  I also really like something with an encounter nova, like cazzeo's Flame Spiral focused satyr sorcerer (though if someone could tell me what mods/enhancement bonuses you can add to the d6 from flame spiral and why. that'd be great).  

Thoughts/ideas/opinions please? 
The essentials strikers are very front loaded - i.e. they are reasonable (even to the standards of real strikers) in low heroic but become irrelevant in paragon when they fail to start multi-attacking.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
There's not a huge between them in heroic.  Even rangers don't really come out ahead untill paragon.

That said.   Assassin|Warlock using eldrich strike.

guides
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s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Or Human (extra feat) and unseelie agent theme (+1 weapon at level 1)
There's not a huge between them in heroic.  Even rangers don't really come out ahead untill paragon.

That said.   Assassin|Warlock using eldrich strike.


No, just no.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
In my experience, the most damaging heroic tier strikers are brutal scoundrel rogues and slayers. They get even better if you have an attack-granting leader like a Warlord, Shaman, or Bard who uses Staggering Note.

There are some nice Sorcerer builds which abuse Flame Spiral, but I'm not very experienced with Sorcerers, personally.

Riposte Rogue probably has the highest DPR, but it requires a bit more effort to reach its maximum potential (several ways to do this). The variant I play relies on teamwork with the party fighter (who has a really good MBA) and Vigilante Justice style + Pack Outcast. The fighter and I gang up on an enemy (we stay adjacent and both get CA thanks to Pack Outcast). If the enemy attacks the fighter I get to riposte, if the enemy tries to shift away he gets smacked by the fighter (who knocks him prone with a flail), and if the enemy attacks me he gets nailed by a riposte from me and an MBA from the fighter.

Mul Slayer with the charge package, Rain of Blows, and Headsman's Chop is also amazing. Charge the enemy for 50+ damage and knock him prone thanks to Power Strike (prone is level 7+, I believe), then AP Rain of Blows to kill him. Charge around for the rest of the combat with good DPR.



If I knew my campaign wasn't going to reach Paragon?

I'd quit and find a new game that would. D&D is terrible from 1-4, 4e breaks down in epic; the best game you can play is level 7-17.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I agree, but some people enjoy playing low heroic.
(though if someone could tell me what mods/enhancement bonuses you can add to the d6 from flame spiral and why. that'd be great). 



It's a damage roll, so anything you have that adds to appropriate damage rolls will apply.  Your enhancement bonus from implement, your sorcerous power, anything that would add to a sorcerer, or arcane, or fire power.
Fire as damage type in heroic works pretty good, but as a sorcerer I would go dragonborn with infernal prince theme. If you're gonna go for it, go all in. No need to wait till later for stuff to improve, since there is no later.
It's not that I disagree... but yes, those are the restrictions of the campaign. They are set in stone, and I have to work within those parameters. Thanks for the suggestions so far, keep them coming. Does human become a more viable option (really like the extra feat), or is the lack of a secondary stat still too detrimental?
Zathris is being too harsh. Level 1 is just trash, but level 2 is the minimum level you need to at least produce something mildly interesting. Pretty much every striker gets their best encounter power at E3, and you can already build powercombos around it by then (Sorc/MC Monk or Sorc|Paladin triple-taps with Flame Spiral immediately at level 3). In general, there are a lot of fun katas you already have available in the L3-5 range.

To answer OP's question, charging brutal scoundrel rogue should produce DPR-king tier damage throughout early-mid heroic. A Riposte Striker rogue theoretically outperforms, but the catch-22 is so trick to set up correctly in heroic that I wouldn't bother with it. If you're bad at getting CA or have terrible teammates, try charge Thief instead, but have fun with not having a real nova.
Nah, Zath is being entirely correct. High Heroic/paragon is just a different game. And even if you get a decent e3, that doesn't make the game more internesting.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Gouge wielding Human Slayer with Martial Cross-Training to pick Rain of Blows by level 4, charge all over the place and draw a triple hitter when you need a nova. Ignorant and effective.
Nah, Zath is being entirely correct. High Heroic/paragon is just a different game. And even if you get a decent e3, that doesn't make the game more internesting.



'Interesting' is fairly subjective. At no level do I find a slayer or thief ever interesting, but a Warlord, Sorc, or Paladin has enough working build pieces to do some spectacular heroic tier combos at level 3/4.

Regardless, I think CharOp has a tendency to give the One True Answer to a problem, which doesn't really mesh well with a poster's expectations and constraints (especially when that answer is 'don't play the game'). Thus, the most efficient advice gets summarily ignored in favor of the second most efficient advice. Sometimes you just have to tell people that their situation sucks, but here's how they can possibly make the best of it.
What is a top tier striker to play in a campaign you know isn't going to reach paragon tier?  I see a lot of magnificent strikers on these boards, but a lot of them don't seem to come online until paragon tier.  I 100% know the campaign I am about to start won't reach paragon - level 10 is about when people start getting tired of their characters and want to start something new, and for whatever reason they always want to start at level 1.  I'm fine with this, but I want to adjust accordingly.  I'm looking for something that exceeds striker KPR or DPR benchmarks, while minimizing flirting with the gray area of the rules. I'm not asking for builds, just generic ideas - I can create and post a fleshed out character eventually if needs be.  All material is available.  

To get started, how competitive (again with these restrictions), are slayers/scouts/thieves with the charge package?  I also really like something with an encounter nova, like cazzeo's Flame Spiral focused satyr sorcerer (though if someone could tell me what mods/enhancement bonuses you can add to the d6 from flame spiral and why. that'd be great).  

Thoughts/ideas/opinions please? 


Might as well focus on heroics in my opinion so that you don't end up getting your RP handed to you by the PP and ED. It changes much of the math though to just focus there. Weapon damage for example is more valuable in that range than beyond.

I also agree with RenZhe. Some on the CharOp do not consider that optimizing can mean maxing in a minimal situation. And there are some questions that go unanswered within the OPs scope. Though I think many like to tinker with those twiddly limited conditional optimizations. "I want to maximize damage while my hands are tied behind my back and I am only level 4 in darksun without magic items...."

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

We all agree that you can optimize within constraints. We're allowed to state that we think heroic is boring. We're allowed to state it with as much vitrol as we like.

As for you Baja, your post made all of 0 sense, your terrible grammar obfuscated any point you were trying to make, and you're still bitter than CharOp shot down your godawful no weapon attack fighters. Theres optimization within constraints (like the Op got by nearly everyone), and then there is being silly and stupid, which is what you were trying to do.

Op, nearly any striker can hit heroic benchmarks. If you're not looking for DPR king stuff, nearly anything will work. Except stupid stuff. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
"I want to maximize damage while my hands are tied behind my back and I am only level 4 in darksun without magic items...."



Well that's easy enough. Sorcerer MC Monk using a Ki Focus as implement. Flame Spiral into Centered Flurry of Blows for a triple-tap, functional as early as level 3. When your constraints are as narrowly defined (and ridiculous) as it is, the subset of credible answers also become incredibly easy to find.
Nah, Zath is being entirely correct.


No he's not, and you're a donkey.

See?  I can do non-contributing subjective and vitriolic too! Good job!
You'll note that I didn't say 1-4 or Epic weren't fun, I said they're terrible and broken, I can back those statements up with factual observations and math. The OP posed a question of opinion, and I provided mine along with my reason.

I have absolutely no problem with other people enjoying levels 1-4, lots of people enjoy terrible things, like quarter pounder cheeseburgers from McDonalds in those old fashioned non-biodegradable styrofoam containers.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
What about a bugbear slayer with a.. maul? I believe.  You base weapon damage is 2d8 (or something like that) at level one. But melee basic attacks can get pretty boring when that's all you do.

Honestly, Bugbear + Maul and any Strength (or somewhat Dex?) based class will do wonderfully.. I mean..


Daily 8d8 +6/+7-if charging, half on a miss... And then Howling Strike on a charge 2d8+1d6+6...
Andd Devastating Strike for 3d8+6 on an at-will...
Encounter close burst 1 for 2d8+6.. or a no effect 5d8+6 damage encoutner

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Grimm, level 1
Bugbear, Barbarian (Berserker)
Heartland Option: Arid Desert
Unseelie Agent Starting Feature Option: Maul
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Unseelie Agent

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8


AC: 16 Fort: 17 Ref: 15 Will: 10
HP: 35 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Athletics +10, Perception +5

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +0, Bluff –1, Diplomacy –1, Dungeoneering +0, Endurance +0, Heal +0, History +0, Insight +0, Intimidate +1, Nature +0, Religion +0, Stealth +5, Streetwise –1, Thievery +3

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Unseelie Agent Utility: Create Shadow-Wrought Weapon
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Barbarian Attack: Vengeful Guardian
Barbarian Attack 1: Devastating Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Great Cleave
Barbarian Attack 1: Life-Ending Strike

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise

ITEMS
Magic Maul (Large) +1 x1
====== End ======

What about a bugbear slayer with a.. maul? I believe.  You base weapon damage is 2d8 (or something like that) at level one. But melee basic attacks can get pretty boring when that's all you do.

Honestly, Bugbear + Maul and any Strength (or somewhat Dex?) based class will do wonderfully.. I mean..


Daily 8d8 +6/+7-if charging, half on a miss... And then Howling Strike on a charge 2d8+1d6+6...
Andd Devastating Strike for 3d8+6 on an at-will...
Encounter close burst 1 for 2d8+6.. or a no effect 5d8+6 damage encoutner

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Grimm, level 1
Bugbear, Barbarian (Berserker)
Heartland Option: Arid Desert
Unseelie Agent Starting Feature Option: Maul
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Unseelie Agent

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8


AC: 16 Fort: 17 Ref: 15 Will: 10
HP: 35 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Athletics +10, Perception +5

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +0, Bluff –1, Diplomacy –1, Dungeoneering +0, Endurance +0, Heal +0, History +0, Insight +0, Intimidate +1, Nature +0, Religion +0, Stealth +5, Streetwise –1, Thievery +3

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Unseelie Agent Utility: Create Shadow-Wrought Weapon
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Barbarian Attack: Vengeful Guardian
Barbarian Attack 1: Devastating Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Great Cleave
Barbarian Attack 1: Life-Ending Strike

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise

ITEMS
Magic Maul (Large) +1 x1
====== End ======



If you're being a slayer, you want a gouge.  If you're being any kind of charger, you probably want a gouge, unless you can;t use one because of class features for some reason (Rogues, thieves, rangers).
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

If you're being a slayer, you want a gouge.  If you're being any kind of charger, you probably want a gouge, unless you can;t use one because of class features for some reason (Rogues, thieves, rangers).



So instead of two weapon fighting take gouge proficiency..
That'll give you brutal 1, and open up to nice Axe-based feats on top of 2d8 as a large weapon..? 
Where did TWF come into anything?!
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I'm looking for something that exceeds striker KPR or DPR benchmarks, while minimizing flirting with the gray area of the rules.


Bit of a different question, but why do you want to play an above-par/superpowerful striker?
I'd imagine it's due to the first few levels not being all that fun.  You're stuck using your at-wills for most of the fight; having a super powerful striker means less rounds of everyone going around the table saying the equivalent of "I attack."
Or a large execution axe... 2d6b2 with hight crit, though the draw of the gouge in this situation is actually the spear part, so you can use it with RoB for the 3rd attack.
It's mainly to see what's out there as far as really good strikers in heroic: is it just going to be the early versions of characters who start kicking tail in paragon, or are there some more heroic centered feat/powers combos that don't get as much exposure because this forum (rightly so) considers the entire gamut of levels, with obviously more interesting/powerful combinations the higher you go. Also, I might be starting another campaign with a bunch of inexperienced people at level 1, so if I can speed combat up a little bit by being above average, that'd be great. Finally, i've played in almost all the lair assaults (which remember, are all mid heroic), and i've almost always played an essentials striker. For the most part I think they're boring, and besides a thief (i love rogue flavor and never missing), i would probably have a hard time playing one in an actual campaign. However, there's no denying they are very front loaded (thief examples - free melee training, higher damage die from rapiers, early boosts to damage), easier to gear effectively (BoMS vs IAoP, for example), and seem (seem!) To be more effective bc of their higher average DPR when no one else has a nova and fights grind on for a longer period of time. This could purely be a function of poor team tactics, etc- of course i recognize coordinated novas are awesome to end the fight ASAP. So if there was something from a non-essentials class that could hold its own in the early levels, I would be interested.
It's mainly to see what's out there as far as really good strikers in heroic: is it just going to be the early versions of characters who start kicking tail in paragon, or are there some more heroic centered feat/powers combos that don't get as much exposure because this forum (rightly so) considers the entire gamut of levels, with obviously more interesting/powerful combinations the higher you go. Also, I might be starting another campaign with a bunch of inexperienced people at level 1, so if I can speed combat up a little bit by being above average, that'd be great. Finally, i've played in almost all the lair assaults (which remember, are all mid heroic), and i've almost always played an essentials striker. For the most part I think they're boring, and besides a thief (i love rogue flavor and never missing), i would probably have a hard time playing one in an actual campaign. However, there's no denying they are very front loaded (thief examples - free melee training, higher damage die from rapiers, early boosts to damage), easier to gear effectively (BoMS vs IAoP, for example), and seem (seem!) To be more effective bc of their higher average DPR when no one else has a nova and fights grind on for a longer period of time. This could purely be a function of poor team tactics, etc- of course i recognize coordinated novas are awesome to end the fight ASAP. So if there was something from a non-essentials class that could hold its own in the early levels, I would be interested.
Even a Vampire is playable in Heroic. Just go with what you like at that tier.
Also, I might be starting another campaign with a bunch of inexperienced people at level 1, so if I can speed combat up a little bit by being above average, that'd be great.


Have you thought about other ways to end fights quicker? If you start looking for the reason the fight broke out in the first place, you might find you don't have to focus on optimizing to-hit and damage but just on your brains, some control and maybe a few skill checks to speed things up a bit. A Rogue, which you say you love, should excel at this! Added benefits are that you won't drastically outshine the new players and make them think D&D is about combat optimization only.

It's not necessarily a discussion for the Char Op forum, but it should be mentioned once in a while.
Also, I might be starting another campaign with a bunch of inexperienced people at level 1, so if I can speed combat up a little bit by being above average, that'd be great.


Have you thought about other ways to end fights quicker? If you start looking for the reason the fight broke out in the first place, you might find you don't have to focus on optimizing to-hit and damage but just on your brains, some control and maybe a few skill checks to speed things up a bit. A Rogue, which you say you love, should excel at this! Added benefits are that you won't drastically outshine the new players and make them think D&D is about combat optimization only.

I have to agree with this - a good DM can make a lot of difference.  But also keep in mind that ending the encounter quickly so that the rest of the party can move on to marginally contributing in the next encounter doesn't make D&D more fun for them, because it's actually doing stuff in the encounters that's fun.  If you want to help them end encounters quickly, be a kickass leader that makes them benchmark-smashing DPR kings.
Or a large execution axe... 2d6b2 with hight crit, though the draw of the gouge in this situation is actually the spear part, so you can use it with RoB for the 3rd attack.


Gouge still does more per [W] when large than exe axe.  Exe axe is 12+6=18/2=9, gouge is 16+4=20/2=10.  The draw of ex axe is high crit, but you can pick that back up at Paragon with your Draeven Marauder for 17str13con.  And crit-opping isn't much cop at heroic in general.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
If you want frontloaded unabashed damage then take your pick of the Essentials Classes. That's what they're about. My personal favorites are the Scout and the Elementalist simply because mo attacks is mo bettah.
I'm glad we're all letting Tacster know how much badwrongfun he's having by playing this game.
I'm glad we're all letting Tacster know how much badwrongfun he's having by playing this game.



You know a lot of threads devolve into that kind of discussion.  I just don't think this is one of them.

Basically what you have is a lot of people adding comments on what would be great in heroic and why (Eclasses, higher reliance on [W] size, setting your stats for heroic only) and then back and forth.  There is actually a lot of good information in here for the heroic-only character.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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I personally like Blackguard|X  where X is Bard (fake skald) or Executioner.  I like it because you can go pure Cha and get 2 damage features(attack finesse + vice) or tag on Smites and Skald encounter powers to your MBA.  And you get decent AC with plate + heavy shield for your Hybrid Talent.  Use a Rapier and Lightblade Expertise + cunning stalker for CA almost all the time.  MC rogue for surprising charge if thats your fancy and playing a dex/cha race.

Its not amazing, but it holds up reasonably well.  And though the character builder doesn't support it, you should be able to take Ninja guild for the 3 target shuriken at-will for a little minion control
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
I like seeing this kind of discussion, because the people I play with are infrequently available so we'll be getting about 2 levels per year of real time.    Thus, while it is possible we'll see Paragon some day, we will be spending a LOT of time in Heroic tier.  The other two times I've played D&D 4e with some overlap with this same group of folks, we made it to 2nd and 3rd level respectively before the campaign ended and people wanted to try a new system/campaign setting. . . 

So thanks to those who are contributing!   

There are a few points I’d like to make (and I’ll try to do it without t0o much rehash)  


1 – There is no class that is “Cooler” or Stronger at heroic then what it could be at Paragon.


2- It sounds like you need to have a sit down talk with your Party and DM about this issue.


You can play and have fun AT ANY level, but the game is built so your characters get stronger over time, and never going past level 10 means you will never truly know what characters can do in the game.


As well your DM should have put their foot down on this issue, you don’t just let people change characters mid-campaign, and if they do you make them buff the new character to their old one’s previous lvl; If you don’t your always just pushing the restart button and never seeing any “end game” or reaching full potential for your party.


 


If both the players and DM though are dead set on only playing lower lvls (God knows why I always dread the first 5lvls of a new game) then your only really left with two options.


1-      Like stated by other, just pick an essential class, they are made to be “good to go” from lvl 1 up.


2-      Try to make your game more RP focused, because honestly the combat is going to be stale as f-uc, and good Role Playing can make any game fun at ANY LEVEL


Sorry didn’t have a magic bullet for you, but honestly I’d be sitting my group down and having a serious talk about how they approach the game, you will never know the full fun/glory of DnD if you never get past lvl 10 (imo)


 


Ps- To all you grammar nerds/Nazis … Go get laid/a life

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1 – There is no class that is “Cooler” or Stronger at heroic then what it could be at Paragon.




That is an entirely incorrect statement.

 

You can play and have fun AT ANY level, but the game is built so your characters get stronger over time, and never going past level 10 means you will never truly know what characters can do in the game.


 

But there are real life things to take into account.  A DM might not be saying "I'll never play past heroic" but if you know the chances are slim to none that you will make it there, there is no reason to play something that only really shines in paragon+. 


As well your DM should have put their foot down on this issue, you don’t just let people change characters mid-campaign, and if they do you make them buff the new character to their old one’s previous lvl; If you don’t your always just pushing the restart button and never seeing any “end game” or reaching full potential for your party.

 


If both the players and DM though are dead set on only playing lower lvls (God knows why I always dread the first 5lvls of a new game) then your only really left with two options.





Again it is likely less the "we will never ever let you play high levels" so much as it is "The chances are slim enough that they may as well be negligible".
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1 – There is no class that is “Cooler” or Stronger at heroic then what it could be at Paragon.




That is an entirely incorrect statement.

 

You can play and have fun AT ANY level, but the game is built so your characters get stronger over time, and never going past level 10 means you will never truly know what characters can do in the game.


 

But there are real life things to take into account.  A DM might not be saying "I'll never play past heroic" but if you know the chances are slim to none that you will make it there, there is no reason to play something that only really shines in paragon+. 


As well your DM should have put their foot down on this issue, you don’t just let people change characters mid-campaign, and if they do you make them buff the new character to their old one’s previous lvl; If you don’t your always just pushing the restart button and never seeing any “end game” or reaching full potential for your party.

 


If both the players and DM though are dead set on only playing lower lvls (God knows why I always dread the first 5lvls of a new game) then your only really left with two options.





Again it is likely less the "we will never ever let you play high levels" so much as it is "The chances are slim enough that they may as well be negligible".

I’m interested in which class you consider is stronger and “cooler” at lower levels then it’s higher; considering a higher lvl chr can do all the things a lower lvl chr can + more. 


I understand as well this might be an unspoken rule; but the player needs to speak out and make the issue one up for debate, if no one ever says anything about it, then nothing will ever be done to address the issue. The player might be surprised by the response.


ALSO I didn’t say that it wouldn’t be fun, or couldn’t be done. Only that IMO the lower levels of a game are not as fun as the higher; and as I advised if he HAS to play in this fashion then just choosing a standard essential build would be for the best.

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