Nede help to make my Rogue strike hard

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We're getting close to epic and it stings when I fail to crit and do decent damage for my class. Therefore I ask you good folks to take a look at my backstabbing Gutter Sniping evading daggerwielding Rogue. 

 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======


Entreri, level 17


Human, Rogue (Scoundrel), Daggermaster


Rogue Tactics Option: Artful Dodger


Rogue Option: Scoundrel Weapon Talent


Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort


Luskan (Luskan Benefit)


Theme: Guttersnipe


 


FINAL ABILITY SCORES


STR 11, CON 13, DEX 23, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 19 


AC: 30 Fort: 26 Ref: 34 Will: 28


HP: 105 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 26


 


TRAINED SKILLS


Acrobatics +20, Bluff +17, Insight +13, Perception +13, Stealth +23, Streetwise +22, Thievery +20


 


UNTRAINED SKILLS


Arcana +8, Athletics +8, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +9, Heal +8, History +8, Intimidate +12, Nature +8, Religion +8


 


POWERS


Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack


Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack


Guttersnipe Attack: Running Slash


Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort


Rogue Attack 1: Sly Flourish


Rogue Attack 1: Clever Strike


Rogue Utility 2: Sneak in the Attack


Rogue Attack 5: Bloodbath


Rogue Utility 6: Swift Parry


Rogue Attack 7: Double Fall


Rogue Attack 9: Knockout


Rogue Utility 10: Acrobat's Escape


Daggermaster Attack 11: Critical Opportunity


Daggermaster Utility 12: Meditation of the Blade


Rogue Attack 13: Stunning Strike


Rogue Attack 15: Bloody Path


Rogue Utility 16: Slip from the Grasp


Rogue Attack 17: Tumbling Strike


 


FEATS


Level 1: Master at Arms


Level 1: Backstabber


Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting


Level 4: Nimble Blade


Level 6: Improved Defenses


Level 8: Improved Initiative


Level 10: Cunning Stalker


Level 11: Two-Weapon Defense


Level 12: Two-Weapon Opening


Level 14: Slaying Action


Level 16: Overwhelming Critical


 


ITEMS


Adventurer's Kit


Crossbow Bolt


Alluring Veil


Elven Cloak +3


Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) 


Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier) 


Belt of Vim (heroic tier) 


Battle Harness Drowmesh +3


Acrobat Boots


Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds


Potion of Healing


Poisoned Hand crossbow +3


Wraithblade Dagger +3 


Bloodiron Dagger +3


Dice of Auspicious Fortune


Augmenting Whetstone (level 11)


Crownring of Tchazzar x1


====== End ======

I'm very contend with my feats except with Master at Arms which will be retrained to Light Blade Expertise to give more damage. Bloodiron is in my mainhand and in case of a Crit, I can make a second attack with my offhand - wraithblade - which can deliver Sneak Attack a second time. 

All and any advice is appreciated :-) 


The use of ["sblock=build"] and ["/sblock"]  without the quotation marks would be appreciated. As would some general cleaning up of the format to make it easier to read.

How much of this can be changed, and what is set in stone for you? Is the race flexible? Do you have the cash to buy different items, or is your DM helpful with that ?
Why are all your main items +3 at level 17, and a few of the others still heroic level ? 
No Low Slash or Circling Predator at 7?  No weapon focus?

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

I'd take a look at this build I did.

Basically, Tumbling Strike is great power to have. But I'd pick up Circling Predator instead of Double Fall. Then if you can get a 13 Wisdom, MC into Disciple of Divine Wrath. Then you do this:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Minor/Move: Tumbling Strike
Standard: Circling Predator
AP: Something else

That'll get you 4 attacks with 28% chance of crit each instead of what looks like 4 attacks with 15% of crit each. Plus, with Symbol of Victory +2, you'll pick up another action point...
Please stop pushing your builds. At the very least it's disrespectful and conceited.
Low Slash got exchanged for Tumbling Strike. 

I actually prefer Double Fall to Circling Predator since I make them Fall Down and then Shift 2 squares due to being Artful Dodger. Why the love for it?
 
The race cannot be changed and cash comes as goes as the Campaign advances. There has not been enough gold to get +4, but any Heroic gear can be exchanged fairly quick. Any ideas is appreciated. :-)
sry for the format.

I have a wishlist for Feats and Weapon Focus could be on it along with Bleeding Backstab, Rogue Weapon Mastery, Back to the Wall, Defensive Advantage and Light Blade Expertise. 

Wisdom will not reach 13 as points will land in Dex and Cha. But I like the idea! 
Please stop pushing your builds. At the very least it's disrespectful and conceited.



No, it makes it easy for the OP to see a way to improve his crit chance dramatically, increase the # of attacks, and in a way that is extremely similar to his current build.  I really appreciate when others who have done builds 'push' them when appropriate as it lets me see different options a lot faster and I learn more.

I don't have to retype everything out or cut and paste, I can just link. And if he liked what I had to say and wanted to go that route, he could ask me questions. If he didn't, I'm absolutely fine with that. If he thought my build was stupid and said such, I'm actually okay with that too.

I'll continue to 'push' my builds when I feel they're appropriate. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.
Low Slash got exchanged for Tumbling Strike. 

I actually prefer Double Fall to Circling Predator since I make them Fall Down and then Shift 2 squares due to being Artful Dodger. Why the love for it? 



Because Circling Predator means you get 2 attacks in your nova round against your nova target as opposed to distributing damage against a target who might not even be there to get a 2nd attack in.
The basic advice at this stage is simple:

Don't be human, that's only beneficial early on

Don't be an artful dodger


Do use frost

Do get better equipment.         
Regain Low Slash or Circling Predator by taking Reserve Maneuver to sub out Critical Opportunity (drop overwhelming critical). I don't know what to tell you if you think attacking 2 targets once with Double Fall is remotely superior to attacking 1 target twice with Circling Predator.

Light Blade Expertise is +2 to damage (3 in epic) so I don't know why you have Master at Arms. I'd also suggest dropping Two-Weapon Defense for a useful MC - monastic Disciple (Monk) for Desert Wind Flurry, Shadow Initiate (Assassin), or Walker of the Dark Path (Blackguard) for more Damage on your Nova; the former 2 give you Ki focus use allowing the Rain of Hammers Ki focus, and the later lets you use holy symbols for the Symbol of Victory.

Your DM is bad for not itemdropping a +4 for you yet, bad Game design already has you down 1 on attack, damage, and AC because they balanced around the stat-bump levels, not having +4s makes you down another 1.

Cha Rogues are outright weaker than Brutal Scoundrels
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
It is conceited, because your build is subpar compared to an elemental rogue. But you ignored that just for the sake of pushing your own build. So yes, Baldhermit was right.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I would swap Guttersnipe for Ironwrought, get Disciple of Divine Wrath for double rolls, and swap your E7 for Circling Predator. Stunning Strike is great, but you could swap it for Low Slash. I don't think I would, personally, because Stun is the best condition to inflict after Unconscious and Dead.

Your MBAs suck, and you need to fix that to get the most of TWO and your group's leader. Get Melee Training or Babau gauntlets (I think that's what the name is) which allow you to make Dex-based MBAs once per turn.

Also, Frost is the best rogue weapon in paragon and epic tier. Drop Bloodiron and get the Frost Package (Icy Heart + Lasting Frost + Shard of Merciless Cold + Gloves of Ice).

If your DM is willing to let you change races, Revenant (Tiefling) is amazing past level 16 since you can get Borrowed Confidence through secrets of Belial to get even more double rolls in.

It is conceited, because your build is subpar compared to an elemental rogue. But you ignored that just for the sake of pushing your own build. So yes, Baldhermit was right.



No, it isn't all that subpar. It does roughly equivalent damage while pretending extra damage from bloodiron will never be useful ever, and in this case, uses mostly options that he already has. So instead of telling him his DM is bad or that he doesn't know what he's doing or he's clueless, I just linked to a build that would help him do what he actually asked to do. He didn't ask to do the best damage that any possible Rogue could do. He asked to get his crit numbers up.

And again, as it is my build, if he liked it and wanted to go that route, I'd know how to answer his questions rather than making assumptions about someone else's build's numbers being accurate.

Btw, I'll know when I'd care about if someone told me I'm being conceited. Hint: It isn't anyone who beats up on new posters for their lack of knowledge. That's the height of actually being conceited and disrespectful and as both of you fall into that category consistently...

Btw, I'll know when I'd care about if someone told me I'm being conceited. Hint: It isn't anyone who beats up on new posters for their lack of knowledge. That's the height of actually being conceited and disrespectful and as both of you fall into that category consistently...


You use a lot of words that don't mean what you seem to think they mean, or are completely oblivious of social contract.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

And again, as it is my build, if he liked it and wanted to go that route, I'd know how to answer his questions rather than making assumptions about someone else's build's numbers being accurate.

Btw, I'll know when I'd care about if someone told me I'm being conceited. Hint: It isn't anyone who beats up on new posters for their lack of knowledge. That's the height of actually being conceited and disrespectful and as both of you fall into that category consistently...



Well Mommy, I am well aware we each have our own perceptions about communication, about how others think of us, etc.
However, I do not care for the notion that I would beat up new posters for their lack of knowledge and to the best of my awareness, I do not do so.

Please note that I said you are acting conceited because you are pushing your own builds. Those may be fine for you, but they are not a perfect solution for others. Pushing them makes you come across as someone who desperately needs to self-promote, which is not a great quality.

If you do so because you think it saves time, then perhaps you have no desire to spend time helping others, and maybe you should refrain from posting. 


In short, before you so handily dismiss my comments on what I perceive as your personality through this forum, I would recommend you give some thought as to whether you come across as you desire to come across.  

And again, as it is my build, if he liked it and wanted to go that route, I'd know how to answer his questions rather than making assumptions about someone else's build's numbers being accurate.

Btw, I'll know when I'd care about if someone told me I'm being conceited. Hint: It isn't anyone who beats up on new posters for their lack of knowledge. That's the height of actually being conceited and disrespectful and as both of you fall into that category consistently...



Well Mommy, I am well aware we each have our own perceptions about communication, about how others think of us, etc.
However, I do not care for the notion that I would beat up new posters for their lack of knowledge and to the best of my awareness, I do not do so.


Well, consider the same advice you give Mommy, because I think a lot of times you are coming off differently than you think apparently.
Please note that I said you are acting conceited because you are pushing your own builds. Those may be fine for you, but they are not a perfect solution for others.


The rote cookie-cutter responses that most people reflexively post are not a perfect solution for most people either.

And posting a link to a build with some advice is much more helpful than:

Don't be human, that's only beneficial early on

Don't be an artful dodger


Do use frost

Do get better equipment.

I mean really... it's like you guys are begging for the OP to ask you for more information.
Pushing them makes you come across as someone who desperately needs to self-promote, which is not a great quality.


No. That is how you perceive it, which says more about you than it does about Mommy. MWAO's reasons for linking to his builds are very reasonable to anyone thinking clearly. The fact that, despite his explanations, you still cling to this notion that he is "pushing" his builds for self-gain reveals more about your motives and intents than anything else.
If you do so because you think it saves time, then perhaps you have no desire to spend time helping others, and maybe you should refrain from posting.


Wow. This is such a petty accusation. You're obviously not paying attention to MWAO's responses, and are just looking to twist his words around to your benefit. Again, this says more about you than it does him.

A lot of the regulars here essentially compete to post the snarkiest remark with the fewest words in the shortest amount of time and you're lobbing this at MWAO? Because he posted a crit-based rogue build for a guy playing a crit-based rogue?
In short, before you so handily dismiss my comments on what I perceive as your personality through this forum, I would recommend you give some thought as to whether you come across as you desire to come across.  


Give some thought to this then, since you're such a reasonable guy... MWAO comes across as much more helpful than you do, and much less hostile.
You do realize that's baldhermit you're replying to, and not me, erachima, Alcestis, or zelink, right? There's 4 people on the forums that bald is hostile toward regularly, and 3 of them are obnoxious self-promoters and 3 of them have infectious LSM (there's some overlap), and it is to act as a counter to those reasons that he posts in such a way.

He's admitted that he's a shameless self-promoter, so accusing him of such is hardly rude anymore. It's like calling me a jerk, it's normally a rude thing to accuse someone of (as you are doing with bald), but since I admit to being a jerk, and that people think I'm a jerk, it's not slander anymore.
I mean really... it's like you guys are begging for the OP to ask you for more information.


Yes, we are. Having someone seek information on why the Frost Package is so good on a Rogue is a hell of a lot better for both them and us in both the short and long term than posting a build reliant on a mechanic they can't use as a "here, play this", there's no identification of elements to the build that the petitioner can examine casually, either accept the build or put in significant effort to scrutenize it.

If someone wants "A few links to good rogue builds they can use" then ... they ask for that.

Teach a man to fish, as the saying goes.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Good encounter powers for you: Low Slash (replace Critical Opportunity with Reserve Maneuver), Circling Predator (more attack rolls=more chances to crit).

I think you should also get Piercing Strike as your second At-Will. It attacks a NAD and can be a consistent source of damage vs. higher level enemies. 

Bloody Path seems good, but is too situational to rely on. Also, your attacks do more damage than enemy attacks. Which means you want to be the one attacking.

Using a Frost weapon with a Shard, Icy Heart, Gloves of Ice and Lasting Frost is kind of SOP for a Rogue anymore. At least, for Rogues that can't take advantage of other vulnerabilities like Radiant.

If you want to make MBAs w/TWO you need Melee Training. Dual wielding isn't as useful on a Rogue unless you can use Ranger powers, IMO.

And yeah, you need Light Blade Expertise ASAP.     

And again, as it is my build, if he liked it and wanted to go that route, I'd know how to answer his questions rather than making assumptions about someone else's build's numbers being accurate.

Btw, I'll know when I'd care about if someone told me I'm being conceited. Hint: It isn't anyone who beats up on new posters for their lack of knowledge. That's the height of actually being conceited and disrespectful and as both of you fall into that category consistently...



Well Mommy, I am well aware we each have our own perceptions about communication, about how others think of us, etc.
However, I do not care for the notion that I would beat up new posters for their lack of knowledge and to the best of my awareness, I do not do so.



That's my perception. Sometimes you're helpful, but a significant amount of the time you push curt or snarky short responses without explanation as if it ought to be obvious. Why given that both LDB and RenZhe recommended human as sky blue that the OP's build should not be a human? Particularly in a relatively feat starved build that you're recommending ought to take additional feats? Also, given that the OP asked how he could do more critical hits, how does not being human, doing frost damage, or a variety of other things you mentioned make it more likely that he will do critical hits?

Why do you think ignoring the OP's original question benefits him? Why did you not explain why you think your choices will get him a better build? Are your choices that obvious?

These are rhetorical questions in case it isn't clear. You do this almost all the time when you post - short curt answers without explanation of why you think your choices are better than the other ones. And sometimes with a hefty dose of unnecessary snark. I'm not sure why you think your behavior is more acceptable than mine even in the theoretical scenario where I am doing this just to be conceited.

One of the things that I've found over time is that when I do one of those links, the OP very quickly points out that he can either do it or doesn't want to do it and what his actual limitations are if any. What you view as conceit, I view as having had practical benefits to getting to what the OP wants due to my experience having done it. And as I said, I really don't care if he totally ignores what I suggest and tells me something different - if you look at the threads where that happens, I don't whine that he doesn't do what I wanted him to do. I make suggestions based on those different choices - which I would have done here, but Black Knight did it for me.

And if you can't understand that, it just isn't a big deal to me. There are posters, who if they said this, I'd take it to heart. You're not one of them. Nor is Zathris.
You do realize that's baldhermit you're replying to, and not me, erachima, Alcestis, or zelink, right? There's 4 people on the forums that bald is hostile toward regularly, and 3 of them are obnoxious self-promoters and 3 of them have infectious LSM (there's some overlap), and it is to act as a counter to those reasons that he posts in such a way.



Baldhermit isn't quite in your category of general hostility, but he goes there often enough to other posters. And at least you usually explain why you're being hostile when you choose to be.

He's admitted that he's a shameless self-promoter, so accusing him of such is hardly rude anymore. It's like calling me a jerk, it's normally a rude thing to accuse someone of (as you are doing with bald), but since I admit to being a jerk, and that people think I'm a jerk, it's not slander anymore.



I've actually admitted to no such thing. I've admitted to not caring if you think I'm a shameless self-promoter. There's a difference.
Get a (chat)room. The OP is not helped by you guys venting your issues with each other here.
Well, that certainly was informative.

Not going to respond to any of it, because I think that will not help anyone. Do want to point out though that my first post in this thread was asking the OP for more information.


To the original poster, what I get from your request is that you want to deal more damage. Having a secondary stat boost that a race other than human gives you could help you with that.


General wisdom (yes, cookie cutter) is that the brutal rogue, with a decent strength score and as a result a decent MBA can deal more damage than other rogue builds.

Also general wisdom (again, cookie cutter answer, I admit it) is that rogues most easily accessible path to more damage is the frost package, already mentioned by a few above. I would make room for that in this build by dropped the two weapon feats.

Last: your equipment is behind the curve, and as such, you may feel your effectiveness is behind the curve. A +4 weapon, a paragon tier set or iron armbands, etc would improve your accuracy and damage output.
These boards may hate it, but if I'm playing a Daggermaster Rogue, I'm going to pick up Cloud of Steel. Yes, theory-op on Circling Predator is better particularly if you multiclassed Avenger, and there are other good rogue encounter powers like Snap Shot, and Sand in the Eyes, but with Cloud of Steel, you kill minions, you hurt swarms, you get more crits, and you can nuke with the rest of your party when the opportunity presents itself. It's not unusual to Cloud of Steel, crit something, decide to make that your nova target, shift up to it and stab with Tumbling Strike, use your other minor to finish it off with critical opportunity. No need to waste a feat on Reserve Maneuver. At epic, retrain into steel entrapment, make it rattling and sneak attack immobilize everything in the blast. Striker or not, everybody should have an AoE tool for when enemies are bunched up by either their own folley or your controller/defender, and an ally friendly close blast 5 you can sneak attack with, is hard to say no to. When 4-5 PC's drop AoE's on the same set of enemies, not much survives the barrage, particularly if you have some leader/controller bonuses going.

I understand diluting your single target striking potential is not everyone's cup of tea, but I tend to value some versatility on every character.
AE is only good if the whole party does it and then it is broken. But that is party-op, purely in terms of being a striker, Circling is better.
It's a very poor man's Steel Entrapment. For levels 21-22 where you just hit epic and can access Whirlwind Sneak Attack but don't have Entrapment, I did consider taking it (Where you didn't crit, you also applying feats Underhanded Tactics, Disheartening Ambush to inflict a -4 to hit. On a target you did crit, you take full maximized SA damage and then nova it to death).

It's servicable, but not spectacular. Did I rate this power black? This might be a textbook example right here.