Can a player target himself with an ability that targets enemies?

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Never had to ask a question here before, but I have an adamant player who disagrees with me, so I am proposing this question so we can hopefull come to a definitive answer.

I believe the answer is not, as on Pg 51 of the PHB it crlearly states that you cannot target yourself with powers that target allies, and I argue that this create 3 sets of targets, You, Ally, and Enemy, and therefore because the ability does not target you, you cannot target yourself.

My player thinks this is incorrect, and believes you can in fact state that you are your own enemy, and can therefore target yourself with abilities that target enemies.

So, if this is not the case I would like to know, can you target yourself with abilities that target enemies, if you declare yourself your own enemy? I say no, what do you say?
I don't have any references atm, but much like you can't target yourself with an ability that targets an ally, you wouldn't be able to consider yourself an enemy for the purpose of targeting yourself as an enemy. This does, however, mean that he could target himself with a power that targets "Single Creature" or "Creatures in Burst" or a similar such ability, I believe.
Sounds like munchkinism to me.


You have two choices here, as I think it is only implicitly stated that one does not count as ones own enemy:

- do not allow this action

- do allow this action, but with all consequences. He does not count as an ally to his teammates, cannot be healed, cannot flank, etc...        

   
No.  You can target yourself with things which target creatures, but not which target enemies or allies.  You are not your own enemy, nor are you your own ally.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I wholeheartedly agree with what is stated above, and have declared it in my campaign. I have since sent a CS request to see if I can get some sort of definitive answer, as I believe the PHB though while strictly declaring what an ally is and what it pertains to never expressly does that with an enemy. Once I get a response I will post it here. I read it as You =/= Ally =/= Enemy, my friend reads it as You =/= Ally, but the book never states You =/= Enemy.
CS=/= useful.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
 Let your friend point out to you the rule that he uses that says "You can declare a target as an enemy". I dont remember seeing that anywhere, why does he think he can do that?
Despite the fact that this player may well be his own worst enemy, as far as the game is concerned, his character is not his own enemy.
Despite the fact that this player may well be his own worst enemy, as far as the game is concerned, his character is not his own enemy.

Did they fix the description? Because PHB1 says that you are not your own ally and also says that everyone who is not an ally is an enemy. That would indeed make yourself your own enemy Tongue Out

Despite the fact that this player may well be his own worst enemy, as far as the game is concerned, his character is not his own enemy.

Did they fix the description? Because PHB1 says that you are not your own ally and also says that everyone who is not an ally is an enemy. That would indeed make yourself your own enemy 


RC 106 defines a target definition of Enemy as "an opponent of the power's user" and an ally as "a companion of the power's user".  If a power specifies Allies, then your ally can choose to ignore the effects of the power, whereas if the power specifies "creatures", then they cannot ignore the effect.

You are neither your opponent nor your ally, and therefore can only target yourself with powers that state "You" or "X creatures"  You also can't really change allies and enemies at will.  Even when a creature is dominated, the rules specify "the creature's allies remain its allies and its enemies remain its enemies"
Since it hasn't been asked yet, why is the character targetting himself?  Is he trying to use something that triggers on damage?
If I had to guess, I'd probably say he's trying to Hypnotism himself or something.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
My guess is that the player in question was trying to abuse something, not do something like this for the sake of the story, and I was trying to explain it to him. I ruled that you could not target yourself with abilities that target enemies except under very strict conditions. It was more an argument over terminology at that point, where I declared that there were 3 distinct sets of targets- You, Ally, and Enemy. The player in question claimed that there was indeed a distinct destinction between Ally and You, but not between You and Enemy. I claimed you could not have it one way and not the other, and a long debate ensued (outside the game ofc.)

Anyhow I promised to post the CS response once I got one and here it is:

Hello Venomace,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! This is an interesting question. The only time you can target yourself is when it says "creature" or "you" and has the key word: Personal

However you could have a character that is filled with self loathing or has another creature/entity within themselves were they could consider themselves an enemy. Doing something like this would certainty be something the Dungeon Master could allow or deny. The rules do not address these story type issues If you have anymore questions please feel free to contact us again. Happy Gaming!

I guess CS sides with all of us.
I guess CS sides with all of us.



No, they don't, and they gave a stupid answer that is nonsense - which is, by the way, what CS *does*.  It's all they do.  CS are terrible and you should never ask them anything, because you are wasting your time.

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! This is an interesting question. The only time you can target yourself is when it says "creature" or "you" and has the key word: Personal



Uh-huh.  So, in order for a power to target yourself, CS says it must have "the keyword Personal".

ALMOST NO powers that explicitly can target you but can also target other people, have that keyword.  "Personal" tends to mean that the power CAN ONLY target you.  Powers that can target other people AND ALSO can target you don't have that keyword.   So, the answer CS has given you?  Is wrong, and stupid, and betrays a telling lack of understanding of how the rules of the game work.

Which is, again what CS does, every single time.  They are terrible.  They have no idea what the rules are, let alone how they work in practice.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Yeah, CS is dead wrong.  Center a Fireball in a square adjacent to you, and you bet you're going to get a bit crispy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
See, if they'd said 'or' instead of 'and', they'd've been right.  Except for all those range: special powers which target the caster, without the Personal keyword or range.

Yeah, no, they're just wrong.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! This is an interesting question. [The only time you can target yourself is when it says "creature"] or ["you" and has the key word: Personal].

This is what they meant I'm guessing.  They gave 2 options not 3.

"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Yeah, CS is dead wrong.  Center a Fireball in a square adjacent to you, and you bet you're going to get a bit crispy.


What does that have to do with yourself as the target?  You aren't attacking yourself.  You are attacking the square adjacent.


If a player wants to attck himself, I would probably allow it.  But I seem to remember something about a player unable to trigger his own reactions.

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! This is an interesting question. [The only time you can target yourself is when it says "creature"] or ["you" and has the key word: Personal].

This is what they meant I'm guessing.  They gave 2 options not 3.




Except that many powers say "you" without the keyword "personal".  Take, say, All The Leader Heals Ever, which are all "close burst whatever, targets you or one creature in burst, does not have the personal keyword"
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Yeah, CS is dead wrong.  Center a Fireball in a square adjacent to you, and you bet you're going to get a bit crispy.


What does that have to do with yourself as the target?  You aren't attacking yourself.  You are attacking the square adjacent.


If a player wants to attck himself, I would probably allow it.  But I seem to remember something about a player unable to trigger his own reactions.



That's because you can't take immediate actions on your own turn.
Yeah, CS is dead wrong.  Center a Fireball in a square adjacent to you, and you bet you're going to get a bit crispy.


What does that have to do with yourself as the target?  You aren't attacking yourself.  You are attacking the square adjacent.



CS said:  "the power must target 'creatures' or 'you' and have the keyword Personal".
Mand said:  Yeah, no, fireball targets creatures, and doesn't have the keyword personal, and you can fry yourself NO PROBLEM.

If a player wants to attck himself, I would probably allow it.  But I seem to remember something about a player unable to trigger his own reactions.



Attacking yourself is 100% legal.  Triggering your own reactions is 100% legal, too, it's just hard to do.   Since you can't take Immediate or Opportunity actions on your own turn, you have to get creative if you want to trigger those.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Yeah, CS is dead wrong.  Center a Fireball in a square adjacent to you, and you bet you're going to get a bit crispy.


What does that have to do with yourself as the target?  You aren't attacking yourself.  You are attacking the square adjacent.


You need to brush up on your power usage rules.  Fireball and similar spells say "Target:  Each creature in burst."

You are choosing the center location for the burst, but you are targeting each creature in the burst, wherever it happens to be.  And including you, should you happen to be in the burst.  In fact you can't not attack yourself if you're in the burst of your own Fireball.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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