Best/Worst Match-ups for Gatecrash Guilds

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Hi All,


I want to talk pre-release strategy some more. Basically, my friend and I were just discussing what an Orzhov vs. Gruul matchup would be like, and it got me wondering which guilds would match up the best and the worst in game matches. Here's what I think:

Orzhov

Best match: Boros
Worst match: Gruul

Why: Orzhov's defense will stop Boros's assault, but Gruul won't give a damn and just plow through their pretty knights.

Simic

Best match: Gruul
Worst match: Dimir

Why: While Gruul is busy turning creatures into spells trying to get damage through, Simic's creatures are slowly getting bigger and better. And they have fliers. Dimir, with its removal and unblockable, won't stick around to watch the experiments unfold as they sneak in for damage.

Dimir

Best match: Orzhov
Worst match: Boros

Why: Because Dimir works best when they're not attacking, which Orzhov isn't structured to do well. However, Boros will scatter the spies and burn down their............ spy....... holes.......

Gruul

Best match: Orzhov
Worst match: Gruul

Gruul will plow through Orzhov's defenses. But in a mirror match it's really a race between who smashes face first or, really, who goes first and plays their combat tricks right. I think this will be decided by T2-T3 plays and splashing.

Boros

Best match: Simic or Dimir
Worst match: Orzhov

Boros is the guild I'm admittedly the least interested in. I think it'll take out Simic and Dimir quickly, though, but will be stopped in its tracks by the bankers.

Thoughts? This is based off some discussion and card review.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Hi All,


I want to talk pre-release strategy some more. Basically, my friend and I were just discussing what an Orzhov vs. Gruul matchup would be like, and it got me wondering which guilds would match up the best and the worst in game matches. Here's what I think:

Orzhov

Best match: Boros
Worst match: Gruul

Why: Orzhov's defense will stop Boros's assault, but Gruul won't give a damn and just plow through their pretty knights.

Simic

Best match: Gruul
Worst match: Dimir

Why: While Gruul is busy turning creatures into spells trying to get damage through, Simic's creatures are slowly getting bigger and better. And they have fliers. Dimir, with its removal and unblockable, won't stick around to watch the experiments unfold as they sneak in for damage.

Dimir

Best match: Orzhov
Worst match: Boros

Why: Because Dimir works best when they're not attacking, which Orzhov isn't structured to do well. However, Boros will scatter the spies and burn down their............ spy....... holes.......

Gruul

Best match: Orzhov
Worst match: Gruul

Gruul will plow through Orzhov's defenses. But in a mirror match it's really a race between who smashes face first or, really, who goes first and plays their combat tricks right. I think this will be decided by T2-T3 plays and splashing.

Boros

Best match: Simic or Dimir
Worst match: Orzhov

Boros is the guild I'm admittedly the least interested in. I think it'll take out Simic and Dimir quickly, though, but will be stopped in its tracks by the bankers.

Thoughts? This is based off some discussion and card review.



I haven't really thought about it much. I would say Simic could be a tough matchup for anyone.

Gruul could actually have some problems with Boros, believe it or not. Boros could get things going effectively a little quicker and getting those battalion bonuses.

I also think Boros is uninteresting. I'll end up playing it in draft quite often I think but I wont like it.

I think I will most like to play Orzhov, Gruul and Simic...maybe I'll grow on Dimir during draft season.
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That's a huge quote stack, so I'm not quoting you directly.

I have the same feeling though: I think Orzhov is stronger, but I'm going to play Gruul. Simic is my runner-up, I'll play that if the shop's overwhelmed with Gruul players.

And yeah, I see myself drafting Boros the most in the set's nascent weeks.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.


Orzhov

Best match: Boros & Gruul
Worst match: Gruul Orzhov (/Dimir)

Why: Orzhov's defense will stop Boros's and Gruul's assault. Orzhov has 90% of the common removal. (Smite just to cite one that will do so much damage against Gruul). 
Orzhoz is it's own worst enemy for the similar reason of removals and extort. It will often end up in stall, with the one pulling the most evasive or spells to extort it's opponent that will go through. Dimir has acces to many removal too and has a majority of evasive creatures to go through Orzhov defense.
  

Simic

Best match: Gruul
Worst match: Dimir

Why: While Gruul is busy turning creatures into spells trying to get damage through, Simic's creatures are slowly getting bigger and better. And they have fliers. Dimir, with its removal and unblockable, won't stick around to watch the experiments unfold as they sneak in for damage.

Dimir

Best match: Dimir/Simic/Orzhov
Worst match: Boros and Gruul

Why: Because Dimir works best when they're not attacking (false, they need to attack to get use of there cipher spells. Mill is not a viable win condition in Sealed), which Orzhov isn't structured to do well (false extort is a win condition in itself). However, Boros will scatter the spies and burn down their............ spy....... holes.......

Gruul

Best match: Orzhov Dimir/Simic/Gruul
Worst match: Gruul Orzhov/Gruul

Gruul will plow through Orzhov's defenses (If they get there... see Orzhov match-ups). Gruul will outrace Dimir and Simic if they get a good draw and won't have time to see them retaliate.
In a mirror match it's really a race between who smashes face first or, really, who goes first and plays their combat tricks right. I think this will be decided by T2-T3 plays and splashing.

Boros

Best match: Simic or Dimir
Worst match: Orzhov

Boros is the guild I'm admittedly the least interested in. I think it'll take out Simic and Dimir quickly, though, but will be stopped in its tracks by the bankers.

Thoughts? This is based off some discussion and card review.

I agree on Boros, and prefer not have any judgment on Simic since it's highly (too?) dependant on the pool and the draws.
 
That's a huge quote stack, so I'm not quoting you directly.

You can quote only what you like in a post.
It's more like I don't like quoting big quotes because it creates a lot of noise to read through, most of which is redundant.

You're absolutely right about Orzhov being a terrible, long, boring, terrible mirror match. And I know it has access to common removal, but it's conditional removal too... smite's "blocking," bloodrush can make executioner's swing non-lethal, and the charm actually helps Gruul nullify the effects of extort. I'm not even particularly sure Gruul is worried about losing many creatures, since as the game goes on their threats get bigger and will, as I said, plow through the pretty 2/4 knights or 1/4 wall.

It's important to note Gruul has some tricks up their bearskin sleeves that can quickly put a kabosh on Orzhov's defensive strategy--specifically with their removal, and the flyer access they have between splashing Boros and Simic. I see your point about Cipher and Dimir, but they have such terrible creatures, I see them as always being in a race with extort and, in general, losing that race.

Dimir--this is pronoun confusion on my part. Read as: "Dimir works best when Orzhov's not attacking, which Orzhov is structured to do." Dunno how I boggled that one.

Seems like we basically disagree about Gruul vs Orzhov. I hope I'm right, since it seems like most people I talk to are picking from those two guilds, which should make for some fun match ups.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Seems like we basically disagree about Gruul vs Orzhov. I hope I'm right, since it seems like most people I talk to are picking from those two guilds, which should make for some fun match ups.

Just built a Gruul deck now and about to playtest it. All in all, I had only 3 bloodrush creatures in my pool (2 Slaughterhorn and the promo). This can happen!
I'm really unimpressed with this deck...

Seems like we basically disagree about Gruul vs Orzhov. I hope I'm right, since it seems like most people I talk to are picking from those two guilds, which should make for some fun match ups.

Just built a Gruul deck now and about to playtest it. All in all, I had only 3 bloodrush creatures in my pool (2 Slaughterhorn and the promo). This can happen!
I'm really unimpressed with this deck...




Can I see the pool? With two guildgates it seems like you should be able to splash for more creatures.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

G1, I smashed Dimir/Orzhov.

Turn 3, I had  Burning-Tree Emissary+ Forced Adaptation   Greenside Watcher   Burning-Tree Emissary   Disciple of the Old Ways  on the board... Surprised
I would go Simic here, and pretty hard:



I think. I don't have a simulator at work though, so I'd tinker with the build obviously. I suspect Way of the Thief is a blow-out. Forced Adaptation just makes Zameck Guildmage so much better, and finishing with Skaarg's trample ability is pretty sweet. I'm on the fence with Aetherize... I just suspect I'll end up holding that card more often than not. Mystic Genesis could be clutch, but, again, not sure.

EDIT: I took out unexpected results. It could be ramping, but it could also fetch mystic genesis or mass mutation and totally waste two cards. The phantom is a decent evolve-enabler. In theory. My theory.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Orzhov vs:
gruul:  this matchup is a pain, because bloodrush means that you can't just stall the board then sit on your ass.  If they bloodrush to kill your guys, they traded 1 for 1, but it's better for them because you can no longer extort.
boros:  this I don't know about.  It should be better than gruul, because of a lack of bloodrush, but if they get a quick start they can just kill you.
dimir:  this is probably the only time dimir really shines.  Since you aren't putting out much offensive power, their lack of blockers is irrelevant, and you can't stall teh board if all their guys have evasion.  
simic:  their slow start is probably going to be their downfall, since by the time they start actually beating down, you should be sitting on some extra life, and you should have removal for the few guys that actually get big enough to be threatening.

gruul vs:
orzhov:  see above
boros:  I think it favors you.  You can get down midsize guys early enough to stop batallion alpha strikes, and your lategame is stronger because your average guy size is higher than theirs.
dimir:  you can race them pretty easily, and kill them before cipher shennanigans make a big difference.
simic:  I think this favors you.  You can win a race, and bloodrush is a mechanic that encourages racing.  I don't mean that it encourages racing because it lets you beat face harder, I mean it encourages racing because it makes it harder for your opponent to stall the board and just go bigger than you.  You're just faster than them, so in a race, you're favored.

boros vs:
orzhov and gruul:  see above
dimir:  play guys, beat face, get wins.  They don't have any good blockers, and you need good blockers vs boros.
simic:  this should also favor you.  If they have to trade off their guys, which grow over the course of the game, early on, it hurts them more than you, and with your speed, they will need to trade off their guys early on.

Dimir vs:
orzhov, boros, and gruul:  see above
Simic:  This might actually be an ok matchup for you, since they take a while to get going too.  On the other hand, if it's a race, they actually might win.  Their guys don't start out too small, and you can't deal with them when they get big.  I'm going to favor them slightly in the matchup.

simic vs:
everything:  see above. 

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I'm on the fence with Aetherize... I just suspect I'll end up holding that card more often than not. Mystic Genesis could be clutch, but, again, not sure.

In the end, I believe that card would be at its best in orzhov splash Dimir. Because you cannot afford to look Orzhov drain your life slowly by slowly, so you need to attack through their defense as hard as you can. It would do wonders! Smile

Dimir's worst nightmare is orzhov. You just can't get anything through, not because of walls but because of their removals. We have removals too, but they get to use their keyword while we just got ours destroyed... in the end you just get out-controlled.

Against Boros it was actually okay. Having 1 or 2 hands of binding completely locks down their board (since you need 3 for battalion), while frightful delusions just mill them out of their good creatures most of the time. 

Against Simic it will depend. Having blockers and removals out and stalling is definitely the best strategy, because with simic loving to draw so much, they ended up just milling themselves out (with a "little" help from a certain xUB card of course) by turn 7. 

Against Gruul it will depend on how many removals you have. Force them to cast the bloodrush creatures, then proceed to either chump block and/or mill out their resources. Pit fight is annoying, but other than that, having evasive creatures means hands of binding and milling can go through. It's important to put removals AFTER they finish designating everything xD.

Against another dimir? Well, this ends up being a)who has the better evasive creatures b) who has the better removals and c)who can mill each other out first. 
Dimir was my easiest match-up when I was playing Orzhov at the pre-release. I don't know, my opponent might not have been on his game (and my deck was very solid.) He had actually gone half Dimir, half Orzhov (Dimzhov? Orzhmir?) and we traded extort for the first few turns, but then the board stabilized and my extort started running away beyond any hope of control. Plus I was playing with three Kingpin's Pet, and his decided lack of fliers (save for one Guardian of the Gateless meant he took a pretty bad aerial bombardment. At one point I even ciphered Undercity Plague onto a flier, and got through two or three times before he managed to play some removal. He did have me worried in the first game when he milled half my deck with a Mind Grind of X=4, but he couldn't mill me quickly enough to offset the damage.

Second game, I played Vizkopa Confessor, and payed 5 life to look at his whole hand (I knew I'd extort that much back fairly quickly,) spotted his Mind Grind in hand, and exiled it. And knew he was having mana issues. I'm glad I was able to go two-color with an awesome pool.
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How does Dimir not get through?

How does Orzhov block the Rogues?  What about the Keymaster?

How does Orzhov block the fliers?

Sounds like you were up against some poor Dimir players.

The guy who won our pre release said to me that more than other guilds, Dimir players tend to be really good or really bad.  I told him I thought I was pretty middle of the road but he argued that I was more toward the good side.

If you're trying to mill with just Mind Grind, well, that's a pretty bad plan.
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