Dimir...the next Izzet?

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I keep hearing everbody that wants to play Dimir referring to it as being skillful, cryptic, meaningful and whatever other adjective they can think of to tell us that it takes some sort of super magic player to use it properly.

aside from the developers giving it some incredible rare bombs and some random (yet occassionally usable) mill, it seems that this guild is the weakest.

Doesn't it feel like a few months ago when all these Izzet players were telling us how great Izzet was going to be and that you had to be so smart or that you're really awesome if you're an Izzet player? I do! Most of them jumped  for Rakdos and Selesnya like rats on a sinking ship.

Is Dimir a bombier Izzet? and if so doesn't that mean many of the wins are just draw your bomb and hope the opponent has no answer?
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
Dimir is probably going to have the same feel of "I stumbled into a win" like Izzet could have at times. But there will be skill involved in setting yourself up for those seemingly "random" wins like there was in RTR.
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I keep hearing everbody that wants to play Dimir referring to it as being skillful, cryptic, meaningful and whatever other adjective they can think of to tell us that it takes some sort of super magic player to use it properly.

I believe so, and I count on it to win several games against Dimir wannabe players at the Pre-Release 

 

From the spoilers I didn't get the impression Dimir was especially bomby. I may have missed them though, what are the bombs?

My take on Dimir is that Cipher is basically a wordy implementation of Auras, and so Cipher cards are about as good as Auras (ie, not very good). (I actually wish they'd just made them Auras, because then they could be dug from graveyards, bounced and replayed, etc.) I think the key mechanic that would make Dimir good is the incidental mill. Mill cards suck when that's all they do, but if the milling is just a side-effect of an otherwise decent card, it's not terrible. Also key will be cards that punish the opponent for having been milled, like Death's Approach and Wight of Precinct 6.

I agree it's probably the weakest, since milling is an uphill battle already. Though doesn't that prove them right, that it takes the most skill to play?
My take on Dimir is that Cipher is basically a wordy implementation of Auras, and so Cipher cards are about as good as Auras (ie, not very good). (I actually wish they'd just made them Auras, because then they could be dug from graveyards, bounced and replayed, etc.)

Not quiet. You actually get to recast the spell for free, which is highly synergetic with Extort...  

I think Dimir are going to be a much better draft guild than sealed.  You really are going to have to focus with them on either an evasion/cipher strategy or a mill strategy.  In sealed, I don't think you're going to have the depth in your pool for one or the other in all but the most rare occasions.  In draft, especially if it's an unpopular guild, which I'm kind-of getting a sense of at this point, it woill be much easier to specialize and build a focused deck, probably a mill plan, that can win games somewhat reliably.  And, in a way, that's pretty much what Izzet ended up being, a good support guild that could put together an alternat win strategy if focused on.
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Agreed that Dimir could be better in Draft than sealed. we will also see some strong dimir decks at some point if they stop being drafted after a few months. I think in the first few weeks all of the guilds will have a pretty strong following. THinking back I think i only ran a real Izzet deck in limited once, Online i did quite a few.

I just remember when i would kill an Izzet player with Centaur Aggro they would smugly try to suggest that they play more skillfully because they picked Izzet. I hope this wont be the Dimir way.

With that said i'll probably get milled to death about 12 hours from now when our prerelease starts (China is in the future! hehe)
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
With that said i'll probably get milled to death about 12 hours from now when our prerelease starts (China is in the future! hehe)

If you can post your 1st impressions after a few rounds that could help us
May you open Aurelia or Domri!

Foil, of course... 

With that said i'll probably get milled to death about 12 hours from now when our prerelease starts (China is in the future! hehe)

If you can post your 1st impressions after a few rounds that could help us
May you open Aurelia or Domri!

Foil, of course... 




I'll give my impressions. I have been doing sealed tests on and off the last two days and Orzhov and Simic have been the easiest to play a solid game.

Dimir and Boros have been either real good or real bad.

Even though I'm playing Gruul tomorrow I didn't get many pools that supported the build. I had one build that felt really shakey but ended up top decking really well.

I build another one that crushed a Simic pretty fast, but it had some early beaters and good bloodrush in that match.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
With that said i'll probably get milled to death about 12 hours from now when our prerelease starts (China is in the future! hehe)

If you can post your 1st impressions after a few rounds that could help us
May you open Aurelia or Domri!

Foil, of course... 




I'll give my impressions. I have been doing sealed tests on and off the last two days and Orzhov and Simic have been the easiest to play a solid game.

Dimir and Boros have been either real good or real bad.

Even though I'm playing Gruul tomorrow I didn't get many pools that supported the build. I had one build that felt really shakey but ended up top decking really well.

I build another one that crushed a Simic pretty fast, but it had some early beaters and good bloodrush in that match.




So based on pretesting, cato says Orzhov... would you still say Gruul? Or now you're thinking Simic?

Has anyone else pretested? My Gruul runs are shakey, but I'm also disappointed in the packs I'm getting. Simic is looking better and better.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Orzhov looks the most consistent to me and somewhat mindless.

I didn't feel like I had too many tough decisions. That said it's technically "my guild" so I will be playing it a lot.

I'm very excited for my Gruul prerelease in a few hours! I think playing Gruul with the guildpack is a very smart idea.

I think bloodrush is fun and big fat creatures is fun in limited.

Simic seems really solid from my limited test runs. I love the bombs in Boros and Simic.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
So based on pretesting, cato says Orzhov... would you still say Gruul? Or now you're thinking Simic?

Has anyone else pretested? My Gruul runs are shakey, but I'm also disappointed in the packs I'm getting. Simic is looking better and better.

I'm with Cato on Orzhov.
I also pre-tested a lot (9 decks - 50 games), but apparently since yesterday you seem not to pay any attention to whatever I can say.

If you have the opportunity between Gruul and Simic, you'll go much farther with Simic. MUCH.      

So based on pretesting, cato says Orzhov... would you still say Gruul? Or now you're thinking Simic?

Has anyone else pretested? My Gruul runs are shakey, but I'm also disappointed in the packs I'm getting. Simic is looking better and better.


I also pretested a lot (9 decks - 50 games), but apparently since yesterday you seem not to pay any attention to whatever I can say.

If you have the opportunity between Gruul and Simic, you'll go much farther with Simic. MUCH.      




I believe yesterday I actually thanked you for pointing out Madcap... instead of taking things personally, maybe try taking a deep breath?

And, look here: thanks for the tip! What're your thoughts on the match-up thread?

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

And, look here: thanks for the tip! What're your thoughts on the match-up thread?


I'll get to that. I don't fully agree on what you wrote there... Glad to see you're still reading my words. And don't worry, I don't have hard feelings Tongue Out   

So based on pretesting, cato says Orzhov... would you still say Gruul? Or now you're thinking Simic?

Has anyone else pretested? My Gruul runs are shakey, but I'm also disappointed in the packs I'm getting. Simic is looking better and better.

I'm with Cato on Orzhov.
I also pre-tested a lot (9 decks - 50 games), but apparently since yesterday you seem not to pay any attention to whatever I can say.

If you have the opportunity between Gruul and Simic, you'll go much farther with Simic. MUCH.      




Disagree that Simic takes you further than Gruul but in my very limited playtest Simic was consistent.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
From the spoilers I didn't get the impression Dimir was especially bomby. I may have missed them though, what are the bombs? My take on Dimir is that Cipher is basically a wordy implementation of Auras, and so Cipher cards are about as good as Auras (ie, not very good).stab wound. pursuit, glee/baneslayer imps and valor...(gtfo) lol. (I actually wish they'd just made them Auras, because then they could be dug from graveyards, bounced and replayed, etc.) I think the key mechanic that would make Dimir good is the incidental mill. Mill cards suck when that's all they do, but if the milling is just a side-effect of an otherwise decent card, it's not terrible. Also key will be cards that punish the opponent for having been milled, like Death's Approach and Wight of Precinct 6. I agree it's probably the weakest, since milling is an uphill battle already. Though doesn't that prove them right, that it takes the most skill to play?



OK, I guess there are some good auras.

Still not too optimistic about Dimir, especially since it's what I signed up to play this weekend, heh. Of course I know it's mainly about what your pool has, and oh yeah, having fun.

Also still curious what were these bombs Dimir has. The promo card definitely qualifies, but other than what cards make Dimir bomby?
There's a three cost spectre that exiles cards out of an opponents hand which you can later cast, and of course the duskmantle seer is one of the coolest magic cards to come out in a while.
Dimir is as close to "Useless" as a guild can get.  Izzet had few, weak tools but could stumble into greatness.  Dimir stumbles into a third color and quietly sweeps one of its own under the rug. 

The comparison between Cipher spells and auras is solid: while they've dialed in the power level of auras so that some of them are now strong enough for Limited play, Cipher spells... well, there's Hands of Binding and Stolen Identity (Rare), but the majority are pretty bad.  Compare Last Thoughts to Ophidian Eye.  Last thoughts costs 1 more, and always gets you 1 card.  But Ophidian Eye has flash (to virtually guarentee the first card), and unlike Last Thoughts can be interacted with by aura enablers, fetched back from the graveyard, or the like.  Last thoughts is one of the better Cipher spells.

Their saving grace is having Keymaster Rogue and Deathcult Rogue... the former of which Simic can use with equal ease and the latter it's easier for simic to steal than it is for dimir to steal Elusive Krasis (The simic get to play deathcult as , Dimir would have to splash for .)

Can you win with a straight up blue/black (appropiatley called "Dimir" in gatecrash) Deck?  Possibly, but any other color combination represented by a Gatecrash guild and maybe even some that aren't would give you an easier time.

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Most of the guilds good cards it needs to work well are at rare or higher, which was exactly Izzets problem for limited.
Most of this talk about Ciphor = Enchantment Auras is pretty far off.  The whole reason Auras ar bad is the risk of being 2-for-1'd.  You don't get 2-for-1'd with Ciphor.  You're always getting some effect out of the Ciphor card (unless it is countered, and then it's a 1-for-1, which is fine.  The longer the Ciphor card stays encoded the better, but even if you don't get a single Ciphor activation, you still get some value.

The flip side is, most of the Ciphor spells are overrcosted, so just casting the spell usually isn't enough impact to be worth a card.  But even then, the comparison to Auras still seems fault.

I think this deck wants to mill, if nothing else, to enhance things like the pre-release card.

I'll be playing this Guild today, probably won't do too well, but might as well give it a shot.
Cipher is a sorcery so instant removal prevents any triggers. People keep saying that cipher pays off atleast once, but I for one will be holding my removal in my hand foe effects like cipher and bloodrush
Cipher is a sorcery so instant removal prevents any triggers. People keep saying that cipher pays off atleast once, but I for one will be holding my removal in my hand foe effects like cipher and bloodrush
Cipher, IMO, is best if you can cast, and hit twice with it. If you only get the first casting, you get majorly overcosted effects. If you get a hit in, you get minorly undercosted effects, if you can get that second hit in, you get undercosted effects.

Ive seen sevral spells perform pretty well on evasion creatures, and it is very synergestic with simic and orzhov.
Also, being able to cipher onto a keyrune and Gideon is pretty awesome.
Well I don't know if somone has mentioned it but

Cipher+Extort can work together mass small extorts and an evasion and just sap life. Not great but funny

I agree in general though dimir does not seem to be very powerful. The entire deck appires to fall down to draw a bomb please deck
I went dimir and I was fairly happy about it. [C]Keymaster Rouge[/C] with 2 [C]Call of the nightwing[/C]'s made for an unblockable that could effectively block 2 creatures after it attacked (Barring [C]Madcap skills[/C] of course) Once you hit that point your less milling and more cherry tapping their life away while you use counters to keep their board position weak. Any other ciphers added beyond that just made things worse/better depending on the point of view. So to me Dimir played like an augmented green deck where instead of beefing up the attack and life of a creature you added to the list of terrible things you where doing to your opponent [C]Undercity plague[/C] was a real arm breaker against the orsov decks that I played.


But I felt the deck was weak in the mill aspect. And that sort of sucks seeing as how I was hoping for gatecrash to make mill less ignored by the power creep that other win conditions seem to have gained.


As for cipher being basically aura's. I don't quite see it. To me ciphers are an overpriced spell that is questionably worth it alone but can be recast indefinately so long as a creature can attack. So to use the above combo you drop Call of the nightwing and get a creature token assuming its not blocked. From there you swing with your unblockable rouge and get another token. Next turn swing 3rd token in 2 turns as compaired to 2 in 2.

It seems more of a risk vs reward type thing. Plus because it is recast every turn you can use very undisirable things to flush out their counters so you can use your big drops. On top of that it goes well with extort so that you can gain life every turn as well. It may seem like an aura but it opens a lot more doors when you stop and think on it.

Well I don't know if somone has mentioned it but

Cipher+Extort can work together mass small extorts and an evasion and just sap life. Not great but funny

I agree in general though dimir does not seem to be very powerful. The entire deck appires to fall down to draw a bomb please deck


Well, they do have Last Thoughts and Bane Alley Broker. Those are pretty helpful for drawing cards.
For me Simic seemed pretty solid. It could also get out of hand - evolve struck me as similar to populate in RTR in that set up right it can be just crazy.

I saw good and bad Boros and Gruul.

Dimir probably was the weakest - it's got some strong parts, but it just seems they're a little disparate. Most of the games I won with Dimir were off of double Consuming Aberration, and I didn't see much else.

For me the most consistent was Orzhov. Plenty of removal to choose from, aggro and control directions, and extort in volume is a little oppressive. 
I played in 5 prerelease events, once with each guild. Undoubtedly, Boros had the highest win ratio of the entire event, probably followed by Orzhov. However, Dimir was not as weak as I was thinking, and I would at the least state that their prerelease card is THE strongest prerelease promo of the guilds in limited. Milling is a POSSIBLE win, but that's not really what a player should aim to do.

A lot of the simple milling cards are tacked onto not-terrible bodies, notably Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer. With the latter, simply sacrifice any chump blocker for his effect (preferably with Call of the Nightwing or Mortus Strider). Just having somewhere around 7 cards in your opponents graveyards suddenly makes a lot of their cards exceptionally efficient, from Death's Approach (a great 1 mana investment to use even before they have a graveyard if you have no other use for your single untapped Swamp) to Sepulchral Primordial to their promo Consuming Aberration.

Their keyrune is probably the most game changing of the keyrunes, either for racing your opponent, using as a Cipher target or simply dealing damage as you grind the rest of the board to a stalemate. Most Cipher spells are of limited use, but the best nonrares among them are easily Hands of Binding and Shadow Strike, and the multiple casting is great if you have some extort to use or your Consuming Aberration out. 

Finally, they get access to the 3 mana hard counter of the set with Psychic Strike and their guildmage IS a win condition when paired with any means to cheaply mill, preferably with triggered or cheap activated abilities. While I'm not a fan of Diluvian Primordial, it is worth noting that both the Black and Blue primordials BEST work with Dimir, and considering that the primordials tend to show up in the guild boosters every now and then, it's nice to have some late game if you can pull the game out.

At the prerelease events I went to, Dimir was the least chosen guild, but certainly not the clear frequent losers of the group Izzet appeared to be in Return to Ravnica.
Came for the flavor, stayed for the game. (10/4/2013: Discovered that I suppose I most closely resemble a Vorthos player, right after my odd obsession with making hyper-budget but effective decks and right before being a Johnny)
No guild will ever be as bad as Izzet.   Even though Cipher is expensive, Dimir has alot of other tricks, unblockables and what not.  Access to extort,  and ACCESS to crypt ghast.

Dimir is in a better position in Limited than Izzet was.

Dimir is in a muuuuch better position in Standard as well.  Gatecrash brings almost nothing to Izzet.  But Gatecrash brings amazings things to the RTR guilds and visaversa. 
I am White/Black
I would be fine with dimir being the next izzet, since izzet was strong enough and  was underdrafted, a feature which is likely more important that pure power level.
@long walrus-The point is that Izzet WASN'T strong enough.

It was getting pushed around by all the other guilds. People were making it work neat the end of the format because it was vastly under-drafted.

So someone could make an All-Star Izzet deck because everyone was fighting for Selesnya and Rakdos and Azorius cards at the table.

But STILL the mediocre over-drafted Rakdos and Selesnya decks were winning the tourneys.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
I think it's a myth that Izzet was the worst guild in RTR. And as far as i can tell there are no statistics supporting that theory.

Selesnya was the best guild by a wide margin, followed by Golgari, and then Izzet, azorius and rakdos about on par.

As for the gatecrash, Dimir does look very weak... but maybe a good deck can be made out of it, it's too early to tell.
I think it's a myth that Izzet was the worst guild in RTR. And as far as i can tell there are no statistics supporting that theory.

Selesnya was the best guild by a wide margin, followed by Golgari, and then Izzet, azorius and rakdos about on par.

As for the gatecrash, Dimir does look very weak... but maybe a good deck can be made out of it, it's too early to tell.



This seems off by a good bit.

I think Selesnya was the best, but especially early in the format, Rakdos came after that.  Azorius after that, but by the end people figured out that Azorius could beat Selesnya.  Izzet probably after that, and Golgari was the weakest.

The problem with both Golgari and Izzet is that the other guilds would snap up the cards that they wanted.
I think it's a myth that Izzet was the worst guild in RTR. And as far as i can tell there are no statistics supporting that theory.

Selesnya was the best guild by a wide margin, followed by Golgari, and then Izzet, azorius and rakdos about on par.

As for the gatecrash, Dimir does look very weak... but maybe a good deck can be made out of it, it's too early to tell.



Not sure where you play but at the Grand Prix Limited events the best decks were 1.Selesnya/Rakdos 2.azorius 3.Golgari (not close to the first three) 4.Izzet (close behind Golgari)

Rakdos completely dominated the last RTR GP.

In fact if you look back at the Top 5 cards list for that GP they are ALL Rakdos cards.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
I think it's a myth that Izzet was the worst guild in RTR. And as far as i can tell there are no statistics supporting that theory.

Selesnya was the best guild by a wide margin, followed by Golgari, and then Izzet, azorius and rakdos about on par.

As for the gatecrash, Dimir does look very weak... but maybe a good deck can be made out of it, it's too early to tell.



Not sure where you play but at the Grand Prix Limited events the best decks were 1.Selesnya/Rakdos 2.azorius 3.Golgari (not close to the first three) 4.Izzet (close behind Golgari)

Rakdos completely dominated the last RTR GP.

In fact if you look back at the Top 5 cards list for that GP they are ALL Rakdos cards.




I play on MTGO mostly.

I think i have seen win rate stats of the guilds of MTGOdraft. It was golgari first, then selesnya, then Izzet and azorius tied, and rakdos last. They also showed that selesnya was hugely overdrafted,  explaining why golgari had a slightly better win rate then selesnya, and not because it was actually better.

I dunno, grand prix only seem like a small sample... but the players are probably better on average though. Maybe that explains something. I can see a slower deck like golgari doing better against worse players that give you more time to set up things.

But maybe i'm biased towards rakdos. I allways though it was a bit of a one-dimensional, all or nothing stategy. Sure it could be the best aggro deck, but with a suboptimal draw it was really bad on defence.
I think people underestimated golgari because it looks cluncky and takes some time to figure out? It has the ability to defend, come back from a bad position with lifelink creatures and a lot of inevitability. It was also the easiest guild to splash other colours,... you basicly never lacked good playables.
I think it's a myth that Izzet was the worst guild in RTR. And as far as i can tell there are no statistics supporting that theory.

Selesnya was the best guild by a wide margin, followed by Golgari, and then Izzet, azorius and rakdos about on par.

As for the gatecrash, Dimir does look very weak... but maybe a good deck can be made out of it, it's too early to tell.



Not sure where you play but at the Grand Prix Limited events the best decks were 1.Selesnya/Rakdos 2.azorius 3.Golgari (not close to the first three) 4.Izzet (close behind Golgari)

Rakdos completely dominated the last RTR GP.

In fact if you look back at the Top 5 cards list for that GP they are ALL Rakdos cards.




I play on MTGO mostly.

I think i have seen win rate stats of the guilds of MTGOdraft. It was golgari first, then selesnya, then Izzet and azorius tied, and rakdos last. They also showed that selesnya was hugely overdrafted,  explaining why golgari had a slightly better win rate then selesnya, and not because it was actually better.

I dunno, grand prix only seem like a small sample... but the players are probably better on average though. Maybe that explains something. I can see a slower deck like golgari doing better against worse players that give you more time to set up things.

But maybe i'm biased towards rakdos. I allways though it was a bit of a one-dimensional, all or nothing stategy. Sure it could be the best aggro deck, but with a suboptimal draw it was really bad on defence.



At Grand Prix Singapore last month I played "Big Rakdos". This deck doesn't have the quick hitters like Gore-House Chainwalker, Rakdos cackler, or Dead Reveler, I had one Splatter Thug and a ton of big threats like 3xSpawn of Rix Maadi, Desecration Demon, Carnival Hellstead. Outside of big guys, use Sewer Shambler and Lobber Crew combined with things like Stab Wound and Rix Maadi Guildmage to really wreck house.

This type of Rakdos deck went 7-2 (no byes) and got me to Day Two.

I want to say that MTGO is much different than a high-level event. Where you just don't see that many Izzet decks, and the Golgari decks need to be tip top.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
"I want to say that MTGO is much different than a high-level event. Where you just don't see that many Izzet decks, and the Golgari decks need to be tip top."

I can believe this. Last night i drafted a really sweet golgari deck,  got to the finals without much trouble... and then got crushed by David Ochoa with rakdos. I mean i didn't even have bad draws, i really felt the difference in skill in comparison to the opponents i usually meet on mtgo.

So yeah, i can see now why we evaluate the guilds differently.

Went to the prerelease of gatecrash and had a lot of fun. As I really like black/blue, I obviously went Dimir first. Quite disappointed with it at the end, had a very weak pool and wasn't even able to win one game with it. Now I'll be the first to admit that I am not a highly skilled player but I had a few good friends look at my pool and all agreed it was pretty much unplayable. So after three games I dropped and went over to simic as that seemed like the next fun guild to me. Was doing way better there. Lost my first match against orzhov, mostly due to having to mulligan down to 5....twice. Can't afford that against orzhov. After that easy 2-0 win against dimir. The opponent never really had a chance. After that I drew in the mirror but really should have won but I was not playing well enough (not paying enough attention to the board position and my opponents life total).

After that I was looking around and talking to a lot of the other players what they thought of gatecrash. Simic and Boros were pretty much on par, with orzhov close behind in third place. Gruul was considered potentially good but there were hardly any players interested in playing Gruul. Dimir, by a long distance was considered far weaker than the rest. You'd have to open up a really good pool , in which case it was very likely to win games. However, no-one had such an uber-six-pack, hence all Dimir decks lost. Common consensus was that Dimirs promo was the most powerfull but it just couldnt handle games all by itself.

Seems to me that in sealed gatecrash, Dimir is definitely bottom guild.