Warforged Swordsage (unarmed) - Sneaky Tank?

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Hey guys, looking at starting a new campaign soon (i think) and probably looking at an Eberron-ish setting.

Looking at creating a Warforged Swordsage (unarmed).
Its looking like I'll need to be a mix between the party's tank and rogue.

Personally I really want to be more of a wrestler style player, taking on anything and everything with my bare hands, but at times, I might need to be a sneaky scout and take out some gaurds before they know what hit them.

So I'm looking for some help with the build.

3.5 edition
99% of books allowed
30 point-buy system
Multiclass penalties apply  >.<


Thanks guys
You do realize that a swordsage doesn't make a very good tank AND is crappy at being a rogue, right? Think of it more like a well-designed monk.
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
That's why I'm not being either but want to be something inbetween.
What are YOU trying to build? What's your ultimate goal? "Unarmed swordsage" really is just bare bones; a possible framework. If we know what goal you have for the finished product, we can better determine the materials (class(es), feats, skills, etc) required.
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
I want a warforged street-fighter essentially. He has no sense of fear. He lives for a challenge.
He often puts too much faith in the strength of his metal body and foolishly rushes in when something of a (seemingly) greater power/ability challenges him.
He relies mainly on speed and using his opponent's strengths against them.
His end goal is basically to become rich and famous from his abilities. He's always been fascinated by the idea of fame and would like nothing more than to be known and respected everywhere he goes.
He pursues exposure and fame at any opportunity.

As far as his abilities go; His steel is hard. His fists harder. He's a skilled fighter and isn't afraid to fight dirty. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve to turn a fight to his advantage.
Warforged Pugilist fighter variant with Improved Resiliency.
On a serious note, it sounds like you would prefer to focus on Setting Sun & Shadow Hand maneuvers. And if you do that, do you want to go Shadow Sun Ninja?
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
After having a bit of a look...
Loving the Reaping Mauler PrC and sort of like the Streetfighter PrC, but it seems a little weak.
After having a bit of a look...
Loving the Reaping Mauler PrC and sort of like the Streetfighter PrC, but it seems a little weak.

Seriously, don't. Reaping Mauler actually makes you worse at grappling. It is a very strong contender for the worst PrC in the game.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
+1 to what the intelligent simian said. Reaping Mauler is beyond awful. It looks good on paper, but in practice... No. Hell no.
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
Well, keeping in that flavour (especially the sleeper hold), are there some alternatives I should be looking at??
I must recommend against it in general. Grappling is inefficient, and is only functional at all on a Psychic Warrior or Totemist. Enemies in general will simply have far too high a grapple check, and grappling requires seriously high investment.

For a canny streetfighter, I suggest a crusader or warblade, depending on whether you prefer resistance to damage and Shonen-protagonist-style ability to make lethal injuries irrelevent through sheer hot-bloodedness, or the ability to BY CROM!!! away annoying effects and have a real reason to have Int above 10.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Pugilist fighter variant with Improved Resiliency. The most effective street fighter, because it's immune to damage. And constructs are immune to fatigue, so really all you have to worry about is level drain.
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
Pugilist fighter variant with Improved Resiliency. The most effective street fighter, because it's immune to damage. And constructs are immune to fatigue, so really all you have to worry about is level drain.

I, personally, prefer the Warforged Juggernaurt route, but the Improved Reslliency works just as well, even if it's not as powerful.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Yeah, but you can Resiliency to be immune to damage from first level, retrain it to Adamantine Body when you hit 3rd level, and take it again as your 3rd-level feat. Brilliant!
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88534793 wrote:
Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
can you give a s oufce for pugilist fighter? google only gives me homebrews
can you give a s oufce for pugilist fighter? google only gives me homebrews



Took me forever to find it too.
Dragon Magazine #310

I haven't been able to see the exact source but I did find written on a forum:


Pugilist

Pugilists don't waste time learning a large assortment of weapons. Instead they master the simplest of weapons : their own hands. They are boxers and brawlers ; tough people who punch hard and weather savage beatings. While often harsh in their fighting style, they are, by the very nature of their fighting style, more merciful than most. While fights with more traditionally armed fighters end with dead littering the ground, fights with pugilists end with battered, unconscious opponents.

Class Skills
The pugilist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Class Features
All the following are class features of the pugilist.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The pugilist is proficient in the use of all simple weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light).

Bonus Feats
The pugilist gains bonus feats as the normal fighter class does, but the pugilist must select bonus feats from the following list (any of the bonus feats that apply to a specific kind of weapon must be applied to unarmed strike) : Alertness, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Persuasive, Power Attack, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Whirlwind Attack.

Special Abilities
The pugilist gains Improved Unarmed Strike and Endurance as feats for free at 1st level. In addition, her unarmed strikes inflict 1d4 points of damage per strike. Small pugilists inflict 1d3 points of damage. The pugilist may choose any of the following special abilities in place of a bonus feat.

Combo : The pugilist practices a series of blows designed to flow one after the other, each one setting up the next. When using a combo, average the pugilist's first two unarmed strike attacks in a full attack and use the resulting bonus for both strikes. For example, a pugilist with a +10/+5 attack progression has a +7/+7 attack progression when using a combo. The pugilist can take this ability more than once, each time adding one more attack gained from a high base attack bonus to the combo.

Heavy Hitting : The pugilist's unarmed strikes inflict an extra +2 nonlethal damage, even when the pugilist strikes to deal lethal damage. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times but cannot take it until 2nd level.

Iron Jaw : Whenever the pugilist suffers nonlethal damage, the damage is reduced by a number equal to the pugilist's Constitution bonus. The pugilist also gains a +1 bonus to saves to resist any attack that would leave her stunned.

Shake It Off : The pugilist develops non-lethal damage only and reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round, with a minimum of 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times ; its effects stack.
Shake It Off : The pugilist develops non-lethal damage only and reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round, with a minimum of 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times ; its effects stack.




I assume from what you said that you interpret this as any damage taken is converted to non-lethal damage??
It doesn't read like that to me at all...
In fact, the way its written doesn't make much sense to me at all.
I think interpreting it the way you have and taking Improved Resiliency would somewhat break the game, so I'm not interested in doing that.

I'm thinking now perhaps:
Fighter (maybe pugilist)/Streetfighter/Warforged Juggernaut
If grappling is the game you want to play, I'd recommend taking a look at Black Blood Cultist out of Champions of Ruin. It's not the best, because after all you are grappling, but if u can get some decent size increasers then it's better than grappling pretty much any other way. There's a decent handbook kicking around somewhere with a few builds I think.
You're not interested in Shake it off + Improved Resiliency, but you're going to use Warforged Juggernaut, which does the same thing at later levels (assuming you take Shake it off)?
You're right, that interpretation (which seems to be the correct one) is kind of a gamebreaker, and requires a creative DM. If you really want to play a grappler, and you're in Eberron, why not play a Tashalatora monk/PsyWar?
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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If you really want to play a grappler, and you're in Eberron, why not play a Tashalatora monk/PsyWar?


Elaborating on this. The usual layout for this is Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 18, using Monk 2's bonus feat on Monastic Training (Psychic Warrior) and your 3rd level character feat on Tashalatora. This gives you almost all the benefits of a straight-up psychic warrior (as EA mentioned, these are one of the few classes that can work quite well as a wrestler, but that's not all they are good at), along with most of the benefits of a monk that you'd ever care about, at the "cost" of a single character feat and slightly delayed psychic warrior manifesting.

Also, there is a difference between a streetfighter and someone with levels in a class named Streetfighter.

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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Just read the errata for "shake it off" in Dragon Mag #313
It states that it is just fast healing 1 against non-lethal damage only.

Which makes it virtually useless...
With the development of ideas in this thread what I'm going for now is nothing like the initial thread request, so I've started a new thread here