Life and Limb with Conspiracy

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Life and Limb
Conspiracy

Ah here we go to the wonderful world of dependancies again.  Here's my issue, I linked an old thread (about a month old, so I figured I'd make a new one).  In that thread it states that life and limb is dependant on conspiracy (conspiracy naming saprolings).  However I think they are dependant on each other and heres why:

If you do as stated and apply conspiracy first then it would apply to all the creatures on the battlefield, but not the lands since at that time they are not creatures.  Then life and limb applies and turns all the forests and creatures into creature lands.  However in order for conspiracy to affect the forests, life and limb must be applied first.  Even though the forests are already saprolings, the conspiracy could still apply.

Now lets do this the other way around, if life and limb applied first all the forest and saprolings would become land creatures.  After that the conspiracies effect could apply to all the creatures on the battlefield and all the forests since they are now creatures.  Of course the creatures that were not originally saprolings are now saprolings, but since life of the loam was already applied they would not be forests.

To change things up, instead of conspiracy naming saproling the player names human instead.           

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

What is on the battlefield in your scenario? Because in the thread you link, there were no land cards on the battlefield. I'll run through a few cases, but feel free to clarify what all you would like to be on the battlefield.

---- Case 1: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, forest (and nothing else) ----
Hidden for brevity



  • If life and limb applies first, it applies to one object: forest.

  • If life and limb applies second, it applies to one object: forest


Since the set of affect objects doesn't change (and none of the other conditions that could make an effect dependent are relevant), life and limb is independant of conspiracy.


  • If conspiracy applies first, it applies to nothing.

  • If conspiracy applies second, it applies to one object: forest


Since the set of affected objects changes, conspiracy is dependant on life and limb.

Only conspiracy is dependant, so we apply life and limb first, then conspiracy.

---- Case 2: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, grizzly bears (and nothing else) ----
Show



  • If life and limb applies first, it applies to nothing

  • If life and limb applies second, it applies to one object: grizzly bears 


Since the set of affected objects changes, life and limb is dependant on conspiracy.


  • If conspiracy applies first, it applies to one object: grizzly bears

  • If conspiracy applies second, it applies to one object: grizzly bears


Since the set of affect objects doesn't change, conspiracy is independant of life and limb.

Only life and limb is dependant, so we apply conspiracy first, then life and limb

---- Case 3: the battlefield contains life and limb, conspiracy, forest, and grizzly bears ---- 
Show



  • If life and limb applies first, it applies to one object: forest

  • If life and limb applies second, it applies to two objects: forest and grizzly bears


Since the set of affected objects changes, life and limb is dependant on conspiracy.


  • If conspiracy applies first, it applies to one object: grizzly bears.

  • If conspiracy applies second, it applies to two objects: grizlzy bears and forest


Since the set of affected objects changes, conspiracy is dependant on life and limb.

We have a dependency loop, so the effects are applied in timestamp order.
Ok that what I was thinking would happen.  Based on how with a forest and creature both effects seemed to be dependant on each other I figured that created a dependancy loop, I just wanted to make sure.  Thanks.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

This leaves me puzzled. 
Shall we conclude that those cards should always be applied according to timestamp?
Or does this mean that dependency is... dependant upon what other cards are on the Field? (weird! )
 

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Or does this mean that dependency is... dependant upon what other cards are on the Field? (weird! ) 

this one
the effect has to apply to something tangible before it can actually be dependent

I wouldn't say that the dependency rules explain dependency very well though
(there's definitely room for improvement)

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the effect has to apply to something tangible before it can actually be dependent

This really hurts my logic! But then, this is Magic...
I feel that dependency between two cards should be a fixed state
and should not be affected by cards... that don't affect them!
How strange.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

I think it makes plenty of sense. For example, Life and Limb probably doesn't need to be dependent on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth all the time -- just when Magical Hack is messing with things.
But the M-Hack does affect these cards, which makes this logical. On the other hand, neither Forest nor Grizzly Bears affect Conspiracy nor L&L; still, their very presence on the Field changes the dependency. That's harder to grok!

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

-Look! I have L&L, Conspiracy and one Forest. Obviously, we must apply L&L's effect first!
-Oh yeah? We'll, I'll cast the mighty Grizzly Bears card and change all of that!

This can't be right...

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Life and Limb is an odd case, since it turns two unrelated sets of objects into each other. From a strict reading of the rules, the above interpretation is derived.

It's possible that the rules team will find this undesirable, similar to how they've ruled that Caged Sun always has a mana ability, even when it doesn't fit the definition. Without an official ruling to contradict the CR, we must come to the conclusion that cyphern showed.