Orim's Chant - can it be countered?

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Hi all,

I'm trying to understand the dynamics of Orim's Chant. The card states that "Target player can't cast spells this turn." So, if you cast it during the opponent's turn during the upkeep step but before the opponent's draw step, then can the opponent counter this instant spell, when the very act of countering Orim's Chant is casting a spell? 

I understand that this card will likely be at the bottom of the stack, but if Orim's Chant completely prevents an opponent from casting a spell, I don't see how (s)he could counter this spell. Is this card as broken as I think it is, or am I missing something?

Hi all,

I'm trying to understand the dynamics of Orim's Chant. The card states that "Target player can't cast spells this turn." So, if you cast it during the opponent's turn during the upkeep step but before the opponent's draw step, then can the opponent counter this instant spell, when the very act of countering Orim's Chant is casting a spell? 

I understand that this card will likely be at the bottom of the stack, but if Orim's Chant completely prevents an opponent from casting a spell, I don't see how (s)he could counter this spell. Is this card as broken as I think it is, or am I missing something?


Yes, you are missing the fact that for a spell to have any effect it has to resolve. Prior to that, the spell may be countered.
Orim's chant (like all spells) doesn't have its effect until it resolves. Prior to that point, the target player is welcome to cast spells. As a result, orim's chant can be responded to and countered.
Does it resolve right after the upkeep step, so when the opponent draws a card, Orim's Chant will resolve? I'm trying to understand the stack better - thanks for the help.
Does it resolve right after the upkeep step, so when the opponent draws a card, Orim's Chant will resolve? I'm trying to understand the stack better - thanks for the help.

It resolves in the same step a player cast it.
Does it resolve right after the upkeep step, so when the opponent draws a card, Orim's Chant will resolve? I'm trying to understand the stack better - thanks for the help.



A turn's step or phase can't end until the stack is empty and both players pass priority. So if you cast a spell (Orim's Chant) in a player's upkeep, this spell will resolve (or be countered) on the upkeep.

[<o>]
A phase/step does not, and cannot end unless the stack is empty and all players pass priority while it's empty.

This means that an Orim's Chant cast during the upkeep step will also resolve during the upkeep step -- not after it. 
Does it resolve right after the upkeep step, so when the opponent draws a card, Orim's Chant will resolve? I'm trying to understand the stack better - thanks for the help.



Any given spell resolves when it is on the top of the stack and both players pass priority.  Steps cannot end unless the stack is empty and both players pass priority.
So, during the upkeep step of my opponent, the opponent has priority, then passes priority to me, then I cast Orim's Chant. And, does priority get passed back to the opponent during the upkeep step? So, each time a player has priority, it's broken up into two parts: priority and response (?). 
here is how priority happens when Orim's Chant is cast on the upkeep and assuming no responses

Upkeep starts
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, cast Orim's Chant
you get priority again, pass it
opponent gets priority, passes, Orim's Chant resolves
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, pass it
upkeep step ends, draw step begins

no sane person would acknowledge all those priority changes, that's where shortcuts come in
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So, during the upkeep step of my opponent, the opponent has priority, then passes priority to me, then I cast Orim's Chant. And, does priority get passed back to the opponent during the upkeep step? So, each time a player has priority, it's broken up into two parts: priority and response (?). 

Yes. Each player either play or pass. If BOTH pass, then the last thing played resolves, and then players again gain priority.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

now, let's break it down how priority happens if your opponent decides to Cancel your spell

Upkeep starts
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, cast Orim's Chant
you get priority again, pass it
opponent gets priority, casts Cancel
opponent gets priority again, passes
you get priority, pass it
Cancel resolves countering Orim's Chant
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, pass it
upkeep step ends, draw step begins


basically

in each step after the turn based action (such as drawing a card in the draw step) the Active Player (the one whose turn it is) gets priority, then the Non Active Player (that's called APNAP order)
after a spell or ability resolves player again get priority in APNAP order

after a spell is cast or an ability is activated the player who cast/activated it gets priority

if all players pass on an empty stack the game moves on to the next step/phase
proud member of the 2011 community team
OK, that makes sense. So, the upkeep can have several "cancel" counters, in theory. 
So, if I cast Orim's Chant, then pass priority, opponent casts a counter cancel, then passes priority, then I cast cancel, pass priority, then opponent casts a counter cancel, etc... if I am the last to cancel then my Orim's Chant goes into play. Whereas, if the opponent is the last to cancel before resolution, then my Orim's Chant doesn't resolve.
A popular (NB: "popular" used very loosely) combo is to put Orim's Chant on a stick.

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Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

So, if I cast Orim's Chant, then pass priority, opponent casts a counter cancel, then passes priority, then I cast cancel, pass priority, then opponent casts a counter cancel, etc... if I am the last to cancel then my Orim's Chant goes into play. Whereas, if the opponent is the last to cancel before resolution, then my Orim's Chant doesn't resolve.

Correct.
Except that we say «Orim's Chant resolves».

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Got it - Thanks everyone!
Wow, look at the ruling for Orim's chant "It will have no effect on spells which were on the stack when it was cast, nor on those cast in response to it.
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back before I was a rules "guru" I didn't comprehend how Orim's Chant worked either

so sometimes it takes someone to explain the finer points to have it sink in properly

giving the OP self-help options is fine, but sometimes we need more personalized help 

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At the risk of tanuki ridiculing me, I'm going to ask this question
here is how priority happens when Orim's Chant is cast on the upkeep and assuming no responses

Upkeep starts
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, cast Orim's Chant
you get priority again, pass it
opponent gets priority, passes, Orim's Chant resolves
opponent gets priority, passes
you get priority, pass it
upkeep step ends, draw step begins

no sane person would acknowledge all those priority changes, that's where shortcuts come in



I think I've been playing the stack wrong all this time. Though, I can't remember a time in which this mattered. I've always thought that priority automatically changed after a spell was cast.

So, could I cast a spell
get priority and cast another spell
get priority and cast another spell
get priority and then pass?

I'm going to scan through the bajillion pages of rules to help cement this in my mind but could anyone give me a section number to speed things along?
yes, after you cast a spell you get priority again
it is assumed that you pass that priority as a shortcut, so you haven't really been playing wrong, just efficient ;)

relevant rules
116.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:
116.3a The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don’t get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player’s mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
proud member of the 2011 community team
Thanks. That's one of those subtle nuances I never realized.
As stated previously, that was a quote from the "Read this - Creating a Rules Thread".
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I think it may be best to move on past any non rules arguments. At least in this thread.

Kovacs started with such a friendly "hi all" and we've turned it into something else.
Indeed!
@Tanuki: I'd still recommend brushing up on your bedside manners, though.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

A phase/step does not, and cannot end unless the stack is empty and all players pass priority while it's empty.


What about Time Stop? :33 (Granted that empties the stack as part of the process of doing it's whole thing, but yeah)


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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
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we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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Thanks. Ima use that

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Context edited for space and bold added by me

 
What about Time Stop? :33 (Granted that empties the stack as part of the process of doing it's whole thing, but yeah)



Can't we all just assume that "unless a card says otherwise" is always attached to any blanketed rule...unless a card says otherwise?
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While we are on the subject of timing, costs are paid as you put something on the stack. This means they can happen far before they resolve. This is sometimes very important.

My favorite example is a murderous redcap with a -1/-1 counter on it, with its ability on the stack, a power conduit in play, and it being targetted by a lightning bolt.

Stack looks like this,
1) when muderous redcap comes into play it does damage equal to its power to target creature or player.

2) deal 3 damage to target creature (redcap).

If you let the lightning bolt resolve it will kill the redcap which will not persist back because it had a -1/-1 counter on it and then when the come into play redcap trigger resolved it would do 1 damage using last known information.

However if you add the power conduit trigger to the stack on top of the lightning bolt you both remove the -1/-1 counter, and after it resolves add a +1/+1 counter. Thus the redcap will persist back and even after the lightning bolt kills it will do 3 damage using last known information.

Now You can also have the stack set up as,
1) when muderous redcap comes into play it does damage equal to its power to target creature or player.

2) remove a -1/-1 counter from: add a +1/+1 counter to target creature.

3) deal 3 damage to target creature (redcap).

In this case the redcap removed the counter as a cost so the redcap will persist back but its last known information was that it had 2 power bcause the lightning bolt kills it before the +1/+1 resolved so when the come into play trigger happens it does 2 damage.
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While we are on the subject of timing, costs are paid as you put something on the stack.

actually, this is flawed and technically incorrect

Rings of Brighthearth's trigger's cost isn't paid until the trigger resolves, not when it's put on the stack

technically when casting a spell or activating an ability, the object goes on the stack first and then the costs are paid a little later and finaly the casting/activation is done.

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technically when casting a spell or activating an ability, the object goes on the stack first and then the costs are paid a little later and finaly the casting/activation is done.



Hold up, are you says that I

first cast a spell
then pay for it?

If that's the case, does priority change during that time? If so, does my countered spell not cost me anything?  This doesn't seem right? 

Is the spell on the stack before or after cost is paid? 
noone gets priority between putting the spell/ability on the stack and paying the cost
technically not even the player doing that has priority
proud member of the 2011 community team
Read CompRule 601 for the precise details on casting a spell.

it's a process that starts with announcing the spell, putting priority aside and putting the object on the stack
then you announce any chosen modes, targets and applicable use of alternate and/or addtional costs and other choices required upon casting
next you calculate the total cost 
now you may activate mana abilities to pay for mana costs
then you pay any costs in whatever order you choose
finally, the spell is cast, SBA's check and any triggers that triggered during the process are put on the stack and the player gets priority back

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