Did blue get shafted again?

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It's sad, but I think blue as a color got shafted again in DotP 2013. This is especially apparent in the guild decks. Let's take a look at the blue decks we got in the expansion and deck packs (not counting MM, for obvious reasons).

Sky and Scale
Rouge's Gallery
Mindstorms
Aura Servants


All the blue decks we got from the expansion onward were either poorly designed, lacking in power, or has a bad mana curve. Mindstorms is the worst offender for having a bad mana curve, with lots of 3 and 5 mana cards, no 1 mana cards whatsoever, and few 2 and 4 mana cards. Aura Servants is probably the most powerful of the bunch, but as I've stated before, I think it's the worst designed deck in this game. I don't think anyone wanting a U/W deck that forces an aura heavy theme on us. It's just not what U/W is all about.

Sky and Scale, aside from being plauged with that Mystic Snake bug, also has mana curve issues, with few good 4 mana cards, and lots of stuff at 5+ mana. The deck just isn't really inspiring, not for what a U/G deck could be. Heck, I'd rather have had Ancient Depths 2.0. At least that would have set it apart from the other decks, and it'd certainly be a lot better than what we got. Rouge's Gallery, while U/B is my favorite color combination, and I do enjoy the deck somewhat, it's hard to say that it's not underpowered. It really doesn't have any matchups that could be considered favorable for it.

I'm posting this mostly because I know the game designers do read these forums. I want better U/x decks in 2014. As it stands, even if archenemy returns in 2014, and some of the decks catch my attention, I'm going to look back at the blue decks in 2013, and wait until I see good U/R, U/W, U/B, or U/G decks hit the scene before purchasing 2014. Blue decks don't need to be loaded to the brim with counterspells to be good, Crosswinds is a perfect example of this. I love the design of CW, and it only has 4 counterspells (6 if you want to count the 2 drakes). Blue decks in DotP don't need to be loaded with counterspells, as I agree, that wouldn't be much fun, especially for the primary target market. But at the same time, blue decks don't need to be nerfed into oblivion. You guys really dropped the ball on all 4 of those U/x guild decks, and I expect better for 2014.

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I am Blue/White

I don't know why you're saying that blue got shafted again, since DotP'12 was, well, RoI season and DotP'09 had very popular blue decks like RotF, MoV and EoE. And I don't even think blue got all that shafted this year since CW is still a thing (although you didn't mention DP, which is a bigger problem than the decks you listed).

And we all know how Blue is the most powerful color in the history of M:tG, by a large margin. The way I see it, having a year of not-so-good Blue decks in DotP is like giving justice to the other colors

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Post #1000 on Feb 02, 2013

Post #2000 on Sep 04, 2013

I don't know why you're saying that blue got shafted again, since DotP'12 was, well, RoI season and DotP'09 had very popular blue decks like RotF, MoV and EoE. And I don't even think blue got all that shafted this year since CW is still a thing (although you didn't mention DP, which is a bigger problem than the decks you listed).

And we all know how Blue is the most powerful color in the history of M:tG, by a large margin. The way I see it, having a year of not-so-good Blue decks in DotP is like giving justice to the other colors



Oh blue definately got shafted in 2012 (can't speak for 2009 since I never played that one). Yeah, blue had illusions in 2012, and what else did they get? Their next best deck was Ancient Depths. Blue especially got shafted when it came to the deck packs. Just look at the decks we got.

DP1
March to War
Ghoulkeeper

DP2
Forest's Fury
Dark Heavens

DP3
Beknighted
Trinity of Elements

Out of all the deck pack decks we got in 2012, only Trinity had blue, and there was only what, 10 blue cards total in that deck. Meanwhile, white got a strong representation from each deck pack. How can you look at that and not say that blue got shafted?

You point to CW to say that blue didn't get shafted. That's 1 deck, out of 6. Meanwhile, look at the favorable treatment black got. OD, SS, and GM. Heck, black has so many strong decks that they sort of push the also solid GP to the side a little. How can one possibly say that black didn't get favorable treatment in 2013 while blue got shafted?

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I am Blue/White

I really think there should have been more of a fish deck similar to what the Illusion deck was in 2012. That deck was so fun it inspired me to get back into playing paper magic again with legacy merfolk. Sure, it was ridiculously good against all of the other decks in the game but 2012 was fraught with balancing and metagame issues no matter how you looked at it. 3 decks totally wrecked all of the others and several of the decks were flipping unplayable. They should have just balanced the decks out more and planned the metagame a little better.
I don't know why you're saying that blue got shafted again, since DotP'12 was, well, RoI season and DotP'09 had very popular blue decks like RotF, MoV and EoE. And I don't even think blue got all that shafted this year since CW is still a thing (although you didn't mention DP, which is a bigger problem than the decks you listed).

And we all know how Blue is the most powerful color in the history of M:tG, by a large margin. The way I see it, having a year of not-so-good Blue decks in DotP is like giving justice to the other colors



Oh blue definately got shafted in 2012 (can't speak for 2009 since I never played that one). Yeah, blue had illusions in 2012, and what else did they get? Their next best deck was Ancient Depths. Blue especially got shafted when it came to the deck packs. Just look at the decks we got.

DP1
March to War
Ghoulkeeper

DP2
Forest's Fury
Dark Heavens

DP3
Beknighted
Trinity of Elements

Out of all the deck pack decks we got in 2012, only Trinity had blue, and there was only what, 10 blue cards total in that deck. Meanwhile, white got a strong representation from each deck pack. How can you look at that and not say that blue got shafted?

You point to CW to say that blue didn't get shafted. That's 1 deck, out of 6. Meanwhile, look at the favorable treatment black got. OD, SS, and GM. Heck, black has so many strong decks that they sort of push the also solid GP to the side a little. How can one possibly say that black didn't get favorable treatment in 2013 while blue got shafted?




Well, Blue indeed got shafted in DotP'13. I never said it didn't. I was just saying that it is not unplayable like you sounded, or like White was in DotP'09, or Green was in DotP'12 (ok, Green wasn't unplayable last year, but it was much worse than Blue is this year).

And I can't say Blue got shafted in 2012 when it had the best deck in the game, even though it had less decks. Maybe it's just me.

It's really hard to make the decks (and colors) balanced in the game. They took 2 games to make anything close to a good balance, and we still see people complaining. You're probably feeling this way because Blue is your favorite color (or at least looks like) and it got a bad year. But those things come and go. Maybe next year will be a good year for Blue like it was for Black this year, after a middle-of-the-pack year in 2012. It's like a roller coaster. Just try to enjoy the ride Cool

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Post #1000 on Feb 02, 2013

Post #2000 on Sep 04, 2013

Well, Blue indeed got shafted in DotP'13. I never said it didn't. I was just saying that it is not unplayable like you sounded, or like White was in DotP'09, or Green was in DotP'12 (ok, Green wasn't unplayable last year, but it was much worse than Blue is this year).



Oh no, I never meant to sound like blue was unplayable this year. Heck, CW and MS are 2 of my favorite out of a dozen decks to play. Yeah, 2012 green wasn't great either. Heck, I'd also argue that green got shafted in 2013, just look at all the green decks with little to no ramp.

And I can't say Blue got shafted in 2012 when it had the best deck in the game, even though it had less decks. Maybe it's just me.



I can't say blue had that much favorable treatment when each deck pack released a high-tier white deck while blue got next to nothing. Like I said, outside of illusions, blue got next to nothing.

It's really hard to make the decks (and colors) balanced in the game. They took 2 games to make anything close to a good balance, and we still see people complaining. You're probably feeling this way because Blue is your favorite color (or at least looks like) and it got a bad year. But those thing came and go. Maybe next year will be a good year for Blue like it was for Black this year, after a middle-of-the-pack year in 2012. It's like a roller coaster. Just try to enjoy the ride Cool



Yeah, blue is my favorite color, followed by black. Regardless, I don't like seeing any color get shafted or extra-favorable treatment. And even though black may have only been middle of the pack in 2012, there were 3 mono-black decks, and 2 solid metagame players with Vamps and Dark Heavens. And speaking of Vamps, let's not forget the OP vamps of 2009 that I always hear about.

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I am Blue/White

We are disagreeing here probably because I always like to see the bright side of things. Maybe this will be a better year, with build-your-own land-ratios and Brainstorms everywhere

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Post #1000 on Feb 02, 2013

Post #2000 on Sep 04, 2013

We are disagreeing here probably because I always like to see the bright side of things. Maybe this will be a better year, with build-your-own land-ratios and Brainstorms everywhere



Yeah, I should try to stay positive about 2014. After all, 2013 was leaps and bounds better than 2012, except for cutting out archenemy. Archenemy returning in 2014 would really help. Playing as the archenemy is just the most fun way to unlock cards. I don't even care if it takes me an hour to unlock 3 cards when it's fun.

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I am Blue/White

The expansion + DLCs wasn't all that great for most of the colors.

Red has Rakdos, which is cool but other then that they're part of the already mentioned Mindstorms, and act of war + breserker rage which has more of their fair share of problems.

White has Aura masters, Collective might which seems confused at best, and act of war, with grim progression as the star.

Green has it really bad with BR, CM and S&S, if it wasn't for the golgari deck I would say they had it worse then blue easily.

Black is the winner here, with Rakdos, Golgari and GP all being strong decks.

So I can't say blue got totally shafted here when the DLCs wasn't too kind to 3 other colors as well.
black was super strong last year in 2hg i can't remember how many games featured 4 black decks with the winner being whoever drew/actually kept those lifegaining artifacts!  I still believe last years double lilliana beat double jace but whatever...

It seems like in general black is winning again this year in 2hg.  While blue has talrand and izzet combo making people rage or whatever.  The black decks just seem really well set up to team up with just about anybody and not have to really change there setups to do it.  Lilliana goes great with jace and krenko and everything in between as does golgari rakdos and orzhav...

So while jace was probably best at 2hg last year (not counting the cheesy double decks) and talrand probably this year... as a group overall black feels better both years. 

the less i say about green and white in 2hg is probably for the best!!

I gotta say that from a 2hg point of view those colors got hozed the most.  Just try playing double green against any of the nonstop double black or black and blue combos most people play or the most hated double timewarps!!

so in the end yea blue still smashes 2hg. 
Seriously crosswinds is a good deck?? its O_P as **** in two headed giant like...the curve for power is 5 but i mean its honestly ridiculous how many OP cards are in that deck...infinite Rite of replication infinite time warp combos infinite bribery.... infinite blatant theivery its gay...and uneccassary...i mean...the blue and red has time warp but its not the main pinpoint of the deck...as it shouldnt be..but like its not an overused infinite combo...all the other blue decks have flaws in either manacurve or vanilla dependence...or just from not leaning towards its colors speciality..:P
Yeah, know what? After two decades of Blue completely roflstomping the game, I don't care if it does get shafted in a different medium. The closest Blue has EVER come to being anything near bad was OLS limited. Even then it was still viable. Meanwhile White, Green, and Red all spent various years sucking. Red especially in multiplayer; it's only gotten good at that in the last five years or so.

Hell, you want to talk under-representation/getting screwed? All the mono-Green decks have been mid-to-low tier and all the multicoloured ones that weren't useless trash were carried by their other colours.

Thank goodness for steady, reliable Black. 

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Yeah, know what? After two decades of Blue completely roflstomping the game, I don't care if it does get shafted in a different medium. The closest Blue has EVER come to being anything near bad was OLS limited. Even then it was still viable. Meanwhile White, Green, and Red all spent various years sucking. Red especially in multiplayer; it's only gotten good at that in the last five years or so.

Hell, you want to talk under-representation/getting screwed? All the mono-Green decks have been mid-to-low tier and all the multicoloured ones that weren't useless trash were carried by their other colours.

Thank goodness for steady, reliable Black. 


This is what I was going to say as well.
Blue is the best colour in Magic. Bar none.
Give DotP a break.

Ooh! Or even better: WotC's response to the OP

We love to hear your feedback and your comments and suggestions have been passed along to the development team. In the mean time, I highly urge you to check out Magic Online. It has the features you're looking for already.




And by features, they mean Blue is the best colour in Magic.
When it comes to the simplest decks to play and the easiest play-to-win decks, blue never gets picked. We had vamps in 09 and 2012, along with beknighted, the burn deck and in 201 we have GG

But, blue is always the most versatile and flexible deck in every DOTP, it just takes a lot of clever thinking to get the most out of them (every deck requires thining and skill but blue can be very all or nothing. Especially the :U::R: decks)

ToW in 09 was the most powerful, RoI in 2012 was the most powerful along side AD and in 2013, CW is the most powerful. But, Wiazards always balance it by having the easy-to-play decks be the perfect counter to blue. IMO it allows the newbies to win some matches against seasoned players so they don't get spanked, but it also allows good players to beat other good players.

I wouldn't buy 2014 if there wasn't a blue control deck, or an AD style deck with card-draw. I need my card draw lol      
When it comes to the simplest decks to play and the easiest play-to-win decks, blue never gets picked. We had vamps in 09 and 2012, along with beknighted, the burn deck and in 201 we have GG

But, blue is always the most versatile and flexible deck in every DOTP, it just takes a lot of clever thinking to get the most out of them (every deck requires thining and skill but blue can be very all or nothing. Especially the :U::R: decks)

ToW in 09 was the most powerful, RoI in 2012 was the most powerful along side AD and in 2013, CW is the most powerful. But, Wiazards always balance it by having the easy-to-play decks be the perfect counter to blue. IMO it allows the newbies to win some matches against seasoned players so they don't get spanked, but it also allows good players to beat other good players.

I wouldn't buy 2014 if there wasn't a blue control deck, or an AD style deck with card-draw. I need my card draw lol      


Considering they have the entire Magic Library to choose from when making decks, they are seriously holding back on every blue deck they make...

If blue is so shafted, I wonder why I take so much abuse whenever I play CW. I think I managed to play the infinite turns combo once in a 2HG (though I've run into it a few times) and in general, it seems I have to be very careful about exactly when to play the various mana leak, unsummon, etc. or I'll just get overrun.
Yeah, know what? After two decades of Blue completely roflstomping the game, I don't care if it does get shafted in a different medium. The closest Blue has EVER come to being anything near bad was OLS limited. Even then it was still viable. Meanwhile White, Green, and Red all spent various years sucking. Red especially in multiplayer; it's only gotten good at that in the last five years or so.

Hell, you want to talk under-representation/getting screwed? All the mono-Green decks have been mid-to-low tier and all the multicoloured ones that weren't useless trash were carried by their other colours.

Thank goodness for steady, reliable Black. 



Idk what OLS limited is (is it Onslaught, Legions, Scourge?). I wouldn't mind seeing green or white get their turn at the top in 2014. Red has goblins in 2013. In paper magic, I don't really see how red and green were sucking all these years. Red deck wins has almost always been a viable standard deck, and I recall back when affinity was banned, the top decks were mono-green Tooth and Nail, mono-green mid-range aggro, and mono-blue control (it was also the most dull standard environment I've ever played in). Ravnica era started off with Ghazi-glare, then zoo, pretty favorable to red white and green if you ask me. Heck, right now, green has it pretty good with their 2 mana 2/1 with haste and undying and Rancor.


Ooh! Or even better: WotC's response to the OP

We love to hear your feedback and your comments and suggestions have been passed along to the development team. In the mean time, I highly urge you to check out Magic Online. It has the features you're looking for already.




And by features, they mean Blue is the best colour in Magic.



Ok, that made me lol.

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I am Blue/White

I feel like in DOTP2013 all colors are represented by at least one good deck.

blue: CW (DP is a beast in 2hg)
black: really i'm not even going to list them! they are all good.
green: AW (most fun green deck i've ever played)
white: PK
red: GG (BF can be very good as well)

I get the feeling that everyone who plays paper magic is so used to blue being the strongest color that when they play DOTP (a completely different game) they are disappointed to find that black is the reigning champ here. Blue has in no way been shafted, black has just been elevated! 
When dj_btrue enters the forum exile all bad attitudes.
Idk what OLS limited is (is it Onslaught, Legions, Scourge?).



Yerp.


I wouldn't mind seeing green or white get their turn at the top in 2014. Red has goblins in 2013. In paper magic, I don't really see how red and green were sucking all these years.



Well, Red has usually only sucked in multiplayer. Red spent the first five years of the game being an ugly mess with terrible creatures and Lightning Bolt. That's really all there was to say about Red. Eventually some strong burn was printed - strong enough that you could play some pretty awful creatures (Brassclaw Orcs, Jackal Pup, Goblin Patrol, et cetera) and still ruin decks that were overall much better.

Green...wow. Up until IPA, Green was a giant joke. It had just piles of laughably bad cards. Green's always been "the creature colour", but it kept getting barely-above-the-curve creature with big drawbacks, most of which did nothing but turn sideways. Erhnam Djinn, Force of Nature, Craw Wurm and other assorted trash. The ramp spells weren't nearly as good as now, they weren't ramping you into anything exciting (except maybe good Blue or Black cards), and there was lots of good one-or-two mana removal, so even if you got a fattie out, it was probably a waste of your time.



Red deck wins has almost always been a viable standard deck,



Errr, only since Mirrodin block, which was less than half the game's lifespan ago. Sligh's history is mentioned above, but Sligh featured bad, cheaper critters and heavy burn as opposed to RDW's longer game plan and bigger creatures. Arc-Slogger shows a definite shift in the creature base of Red decks.

and I recall back when affinity was banned, the top decks were mono-green Tooth and Nail, mono-green mid-range aggro, and mono-blue control (it was also the most dull standard environment I've ever played in). Ravnica era started off with Ghazi-glare, then zoo, pretty favorable to red white and green if you ask me. Heck, right now, green has it pretty good with their 2 mana 2/1 with haste and ungying and Rancor.



Yeah, and that was the first time Green was ever top tier. Only took thirteen years or so. Green's three biggest contributions prior to that were Birds of Paradise, Wild Mongrel, and Regrowth...mostly because they all let you do cooler stuff in other colours.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Ok, now I'm really not sure what IPA is, and I can't really comment about the standard meta prior to Mirrodin, since that was about the time I really started getting into standard. Even now, I'm not playing paper much, but I do still keep my eye on it. And I know I've seen the explainations before, but I really can't see much difference between RDW, sligh, and the 3 or so other names for mono-red decks. They all pretty much meld together to me.

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I am Blue/White

Blue is the worst color in the game anyways.  Who cares?

You got CW and DP so you really can't say it got shafted.  And RoI invalidates your "again" qualifier in your thread topic.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

You got CW and DP so you really can't say it got shafted.



1-2 decks doesn't stop the rest from being bad. That's like saying black didn't get favorable treatment in 2013 because of ED and RG.

And RoI invalidates your "again" qualifier in your thread topic.



The deck packs in 2012 say otherwise. I've been over this already.

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I am Blue/White

Ok, now I'm really not sure what IPA is

Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse
You got CW and DP so you really can't say it got shafted.



1-2 decks doesn't stop the rest from being bad. That's like saying black didn't get favorable treatment in 2013 because of ED and RG.



No it doesn't stop the rest from being bad.  But having 2 good mono-blue decks certainly doesn't reflect your sentiment that blue got shafted.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

No it doesn't stop the rest from being bad.  But having 2 good mono-blue decks certainly doesn't reflect your sentiment that blue got shafted.



I didn't realize 2 out of 6 was a majority, or even 50%. My math must be broken today. One could also argue that DP isn't all that good (not that I'm going to make that arguement, but meh).

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I am Blue/White

Megamaster is, if I'm not mistaken, saying Blue got shafted in quantity of good blue decks, not quality.

As in, "sure, Realms of Illusion was the best deck in Dotp'12, but if you didn't want to play the roflstomp deck, you had to play a bad deck".

Pretty much sum it up?
Megamaster is, if I'm not mistaken, saying Blue got shafted in quantity of good blue decks, not quality.

As in, "sure, Realms of Illusion was the best deck in Dotp'12, but if you didn't want to play the roflstomp deck, you had to play a bad deck".

Pretty much sum it up?



Yes, thank you for clarifying my point.

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I am Blue/White

Megamaster is, if I'm not mistaken, saying Blue got shafted in quantity of good blue decks, not quality.

As in, "sure, Realms of Illusion was the best deck in Dotp'12, but if you didn't want to play the roflstomp deck, you had to play a bad deck".

Pretty much sum it up?



See, this is where I get confused.  Is any color represented by only good decks?  Are there any colors that aren't in any sub-par decks? 

How can you, on one hand, complain about the quality of decks provided for a given color and then, on the other hand, not want to play the best deck available in that color (speaking of RoI here)?  Basically, the point I'm making here, is that everyone complains when decks are "weak" but then refuses to play the "GOOD" decks.  You can't have it both ways. 

I mean, do we say that red got shafted because it is represented by BR, MS, and AoW (all decks I consider weak) even though it has BoF (a deck I consider very strong) and GG?  2 out of 5.  By your definition, red got shafted too, even though it has what some would consider the strongest deck in the game in GG.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

I really think there should have been more of a fish deck similar to what the Illusion deck was in 2012. That deck was so fun it inspired me to get back into playing paper magic again with legacy merfolk. Sure, it was ridiculously good against all of the other decks in the game but 2012 was fraught with balancing and metagame issues no matter how you looked at it. 3 decks totally wrecked all of the others and several of the decks were flipping unplayable. They should have just balanced the decks out more and planned the metagame a little better.





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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

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https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster


See, this is where I get confused.  Is any color represented by only good decks?  Are there any colors that aren't in any sub-par decks? 

How can you, on one hand, complain about the quality of decks provided for a given color and then, on the other hand, not want to play the best deck available in that color (speaking of RoI here)?  Basically, the point I'm making here, is that everyone complains when decks are "weak" but then refuses to play the "GOOD" decks.  You can't have it both ways. 



Where did I say I wasn't playing the good decks? Where are you getting this information from?

I mean, do we say that red got shafted because it is represented by BR, MS, and AoW (all decks I consider weak) even though it has BoF (a deck I consider very strong) and GG?  2 out of 5.  By your definition, red got shafted too, even though it has what some would consider the strongest deck in the game in GG.



Is Grinning Malice no longer a red deck? That's 3 out of 6 for good red decks, 50%, aka, not shafted.

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I am Blue/White

So let me see if I can get this straight, then..

In 2013, 3 out of the 6 red decks are good, so it's not shafted.

In 2012,  3 out of the 5 blue decks are good, so it's.. shafted?

Methinks the parameters of "shafted" seem to be shifting to be whatever manages to support the original claim at a given point in time. 

See, this is where I get confused.  Is any color represented by only good decks?  Are there any colors that aren't in any sub-par decks? 

How can you, on one hand, complain about the quality of decks provided for a given color and then, on the other hand, not want to play the best deck available in that color (speaking of RoI here)?  Basically, the point I'm making here, is that everyone complains when decks are "weak" but then refuses to play the "GOOD" decks.  You can't have it both ways. 



Where did I say I wasn't playing the good decks? Where are you getting this information from?



Maybe you should look at my post again.  I was quoting Splattercat not you.  I'm got this information based on my experience here on the forums.  People are always saying how playing the good decks (RoI in '12, GG/MM/DP in '13) shows you have no skill and that they avoid those decks because they are easy mode.

I mean, do we say that red got shafted because it is represented by BR, MS, and AoW (all decks I consider weak) even though it has BoF (a deck I consider very strong) and GG?  2 out of 5.  By your definition, red got shafted too, even though it has what some would consider the strongest deck in the game in GG.



Is Grinning Malice no longer a red deck? That's 3 out of 6 for good red decks, 50%, aka, not shafted.



DP, AS, CW = Good   MS = Middle of the pack (some people claim it's good)   SaS, RG = Subpar

SO, by your own definition blue did not get shafted.

So let me see if I can get this straight, then..

In 2013, 3 out of the 6 red decks are good, so it's not shafted.

In 2012,  3 out of the 5 blue decks are good, so it's.. shafted?

Methinks the parameters of "shafted" seem to be shifting to be whatever manages to support the original claim at a given point in time. 



I think he just answered his own question.  Can we request to have an ORC lock this thread now that it's no longer relevant?

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

So let me see if I can get this straight, then..

In 2013, 3 out of the 6 red decks are good, so it's not shafted.

In 2012,  3 out of the 5 blue decks are good, so it's.. shafted?

Methinks the parameters of "shafted" seem to be shifting to be whatever manages to support the original claim at a given point in time. 


Completely agree.

2009: 5 Blue decks. All high tier.
2012: 5 Blue decks. 3 high tier (RoI, AD and Mach), 2 mid tier (1 of which only splashed blue)
2013: 7 Blue decks. 3 high tier (DP, CW and MM), 4 mid tier.

There's never been a terrible Blue deck, and in the game that has the most average ones (2013) they're all in the deck packs which hit all the colours just as bad.

The original claim is simply wrong. Do the above math with any other colour and they come off the same at best, but often worse.



While I don't agree that blue got shafted in 2013, characterizing 4 of the blue decks from 2013 as 'mid tier' is a bit off.  There is no way RG is anything but the worst deck in the format.  If it counts as mid tier, then low tier is not a thing.  Every other deck has at least one matchup that is probably favorable for it.

I suspect some of the disappointment about blue is more about the dissappointment of blue/black than blue in general. 
I think it's much worse than Boros, Gruul and Selesnya.  
--Boros is a pretty strong match against GG, with first strike and lifegain.  
--Gruul is a strong match against a ton of decks, but in particular, can take down many control decks and MM with ease.  I think Gruul has been heavily underrated on this forum.
--Selesnya is an all-around pretty solid deck with few bad matchups.  Two copies of Overrun mean it will unexpectedly swing games even when very behind.

I like playing RG and I agree with your claim that it's not trash tier - but at the same time I don't think it has a single favorable matchup and it has a fair number of pretty unfavorable ones.  I can't think of another deck in that category (though Boros is close).  It's probably much better in 2HG though.


 
Even if RG is lowest teir; Blue still has DP, CW, MS, and AS.  That's over 1/2 of it's representation.  Yes AS and MS are probably on what most would consider a 2nd tier but they are by no stretch bad decks.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

True.  All 4 of those are good decks, although DP is pretty bad in many 1v1 matchups.  I'd probably even put SaS ahead of it.  It's strength in 2HG though does change the game however.

I wonder if the reason the blue decks are weaker here than what you might expect is their potential to ruin 2HG.  Three of the strongest 2HG decks are blue, and enough people complain about MS/CW Time Warps or DP/anything that an argument could be made that they've already broken the format by incentivizing at least one of them in every game.  I don't mind the blue decks in 2HG but clearly a lot of people do, and an awlful lot of people feel compelled to play them every game.  If RG had been of the power you might expect from a blue/black deck, it could have made any non-blue deck unplayable in 2HG.
I like playing RG and I agree with your claim that it's not trash tier - but at the same time I don't think it has a single favorable matchup and it has a fair number of pretty unfavorable ones.  I can't think of another deck in that category (though Boros is close).  It's probably much better in 2HG though.


Well, the three quoted are pretty bad in 2HG and RG doesn't fare much better in all honesty. It's fatties and enchantments are excellent though. If it can survive to that stage, then it does do a great job in 2HG. Its early game is just terrible though for that mode.

Gruul and Selsnya are just bad there. It's too sweeper dominated and they have not much lategame either. Boros is similar, but the presence of its own sweeper (albiet a poor one), 4x Rally the Righteous and the guildmages give it a limited combo support role.




I had a ton of success playing Gruul with GM in the short-lived steam 2HG league.  It was a combo we used to dismantle Crosswinds/OD - it was just too fast to deal with.  Neither GM nor BR really cares about sweepers, both have decent haste options, and trample instants mean a Bloodchief Ascension will be activated very quickly without some sort of enchantment removal.  The presence of trample instants alone really mean you just need one creature with haste (and you have to play around instant-speed removal obviously).
I disagree. The blue decks in 2013 are not only good, there's also a lot of variety between them. Choose between mill, auras, bounce/counter/stall, creatures/tokens or draw/burn.

They're not nearly as bad as you say.

CW is top tier material.
DP is underestimated and a default win vs MM, which you'll encounter 90% of the time atm.
AS, while not my style of play, can be quite powerful.
A creatureless MS is decent aswell and the high curve doesn't hurt that much, because it has efficient ways to deal with weenies.
I'll never get why people say Simic is weak, it's been very kind to me with a focus on tokens.
RG is the only blue deck I'd call bad.

If I had to rank the colours, I'd say red decks are the best overall, followed by blue and black for a tied second place, green in fourth place and white on last.
2009: 5 Blue decks. All high tier.
2012: 5 Blue decks. 3 high tier (RoI, AD and Mach), 2 mid tier (1 of which only splashed blue)
2013: 7 Blue decks. 3 high tier (DP, CW and MM), 4 mid tier.



AD and Machinations were certainly not high tier decks in 2012. They were mid tier at best.
For 2013 we're not counting MM here, for obvious reasons. If you say blue didn't get shafted because of MM, then I could turn around and say green or red didn't get shafted because of MM. SaS and RG are certainly not mid-tier (SaS being debatable).


DP, AS, CW = Good   MS = Middle of the pack (some people claim it's good)   SaS, RG = Subpar

SO, by your own definition blue did not get shafted.



I like how you guys keep trying to shift blue decks up. First I was mainly focusing on the 2 color decks, with all of them being either bad or poorly designed. Then someone wanted to add in CW and DP, and I even allowed DP to count as not shafted. Now instead of going with 2 out of 6, you're trying to shift AS and MS up.

Methinks the parameters of "shafted" seem to be shifting to be whatever manages to support the original claim at a given point in time. 



I think he just answered his own question.  Can we request to have an ORC lock this thread now that it's no longer relevant?



This is an opinon based topic. If you don't agree with my opinion and think blue didn't get shafted, that's fine, but that's no reason to lock the topic.

Duels of the Planeswalkers deck builds and analysis: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/dotp

 

Another one of my websites: http://megamaster125.angelfire.com/rationalchristianity/

 

I am Blue/White

So now having solid mid-tier decks doesn't save a color from being "shafted", and, depending on the year, having very good base decks doesn't matter, because in *those* years, DLC is the focus.  Again, it seems like you're wearing yourself out moving the goalposts back and forth for the sake of not threatening your original argument instead of considering whether the feedback is a legitimate counterpoint.

How about this, then.. make up a specific ruleset as to what constitutes the "shafting" of a color.  Go through each color in the three games, and do the numbers per year, so that you're consistent across colors and across years.  See how each color fares.  Then we'll all have at least a solid frame of reference, instead of trying to address moving targets.  I think that would help build some possibly constructive conversation around the possibility that blue has been poorly represented.
2009: 5 Blue decks. All high tier.
2012: 5 Blue decks. 3 high tier (RoI, AD and Mach), 2 mid tier (1 of which only splashed blue)
2013: 7 Blue decks. 3 high tier (DP, CW and MM), 4 mid tier.



AD and Machinations were certainly not high tier decks in 2012. They were mid tier at best.
For 2013 we're not counting MM here, for obvious reasons. If you say blue didn't get shafted because of MM, then I could turn around and say green or red didn't get shafted because of MM. SaS and RG are certainly not mid-tier (SaS being debatable).


DP, AS, CW = Good   MS = Middle of the pack (some people claim it's good)   SaS, RG = Subpar

SO, by your own definition blue did not get shafted.



I like how you guys keep trying to shift blue decks up. First I was mainly focusing on the 2 color decks, with all of them being either bad or poorly designed. Then someone wanted to add in CW and DP, and I even allowed DP to count as not shafted. Now instead of going with 2 out of 6, you're trying to shift AS and MS up.

Methinks the parameters of "shafted" seem to be shifting to be whatever manages to support the original claim at a given point in time. 



I think he just answered his own question.  Can we request to have an ORC lock this thread now that it's no longer relevant?



This is an opinon based topic. If you don't agree with my opinion and think blue didn't get shafted, that's fine, but that's no reason to lock the topic.


No, actually, I shifted MS down to mid-tier, giving you a little room on this one.

AD and Machinations were definetly good decks

I was joking about having an ORC lock the thread.  But seriously, this thread which is an opinion (blue got shafted) which is based on another opinion (how strong each blue deck is and where it fits in your "tier" system) is just going to keep going back and forth so I'm done.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster