Advanced Grappling and D&D Next

Grappling is a natural part of combat for beings who attack with unequipped hands, claws, tentacles, tails, and mouths. Unfortunately grappling, especially when it comes to more than merely holding someone, is a tough issue for D&D because of its ore resolution system. Advanced aspects of grappling such as pins, slams, tackles, and locks, is hard to replicate in D&D if many of grappling's and wrestling's aspects are simulated via mechanics. It usually comes out too confusing to remember, too limited in access, too difficult to use, or having some other flaw. This sometime results in the DM having to adjust current rules or to create new rulings (which is usually asking for trouble due to the total difficulty with grabs and wrestling overall).

But D&D Next is new and offers another chance to tackle the problem again. And DDN has the unique advantage of not needing to put grappling in the core system. It an even often multiple solutions to fit multiple types of groups.

So let's go on options

1) A "Straight Up" Grappling and Wrestling module ruleset separate from all other systems.
Rip wrestling from everything else. Standard rules just has "free hand" grab action and explains what "grappled" is. Everything else is moved to another page in some book. Want to pin an orc to the ground? Go to that page. Want to put a guard in a quiet sleeper hold? Go to that page. DM let you do the chandelier swing and you think your PC is some sort of luchador so you want to catch one of the attacking harpies in a frankenstiener mid air? (actually happened) Go to that page. Pins, slams, tackles, strangles, holds, and garrotes contained in one place. Modifiers and restrictions for number of free hands, size, ability score, training, or whatever is self contained.

Advantages. You get everything you need in one place when you need it. Being class and module neutral, there will be no issues about why X can't do Y. Disadvantages. It'll have to be big and you cannot piece this together in multiple books. So the wrestling module will be fat. Maybe too fat for a the PHB or DMG for some. Wrestling is not really tied to a setting so jamming it in a setting book with be odd. Maybe a Combat and Tactics book.

2)  Wrestling as Maneuvers
Wrestling moves, plain and simple. A generic "grab and pin" and "grab and slam" maneuver. All other advanced "wrestling moves" could be created and balanced individually and placed in class list where appropriate. Then you can place moves with appropriate effect in appropriate books. Put your teleporting suplex in the same book as the fighter/mage class. Flaws? Class limitation issues and "rasslin' move bloat"

3) Grappler class
Make a grappler class. Or several different ones. Multiclass if you want to do fancy stuff. Eh...

So what do you think?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I want wrestling mechanics that are no-brainer simple.

Attacking with a grab should be as mechanically simple as attacking with a sword.

Grabbing is ubiquitous in reallife, and needs to be a normal part of combat.



The solution seems to be the “Grabbed condition”.

• Hit to inflict the Grabbed condition.
• Check to escape the Grabbed condition.

(Use Strength check to break a Grab, and Dexterity check to slip out of a Grab.)

The Grabbed condition means the target becomes attached to the Grabber.



For example,


If you Grab a horses neck, the horse might fail to escape the Grab, but is still strong enough to carry you a great distance away.

If an iron chain Grabs you, you might fail to break the iron bond, but succeed to pull the chain out of a stone wall. Then the chain still Grabs you, but you are mobile to carry the chain around.

And so on.
I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 
I want wrestling mechanics that are no-brainer simple.

Attacking with a grab should be as mechanically simple as attacking with a sword.

Grabbing is ubiquitous in reallife, and needs to be a normal part of combat.



The solution seems to be the “Grabbed condition”.

• Hit to inflict the Grabbed condition.
• Check to escape the Grabbed condition.

(Use Strength check to break a Grab, and Dexterity check to slip out of a Grab.)

The Grabbed condition means the target becomes attached to the Grabber.



For example,


If you Grab a horses neck, the horse might fail to escape the Grab, but is still strong enough to carry you a great distance away.

If an iron chain Grabs you, you might fail to break the iron bond, but succeed to pull the chain out of a stone wall. Then the chain still Grabs you, but you are mobile to carry the chain around.

And so on.



But how do you grab a hobgoblin off his mount and toss him a cliff in a single action?

I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 



A jumping cutter, eh.

Grab+ Knowndown+Damage in an action?

Someone has to figure that one out.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 



Since it is based off Pro wrestling, I assume it would only work on willing targets.  Tongue Out

But how do you grab a hobgoblin off his mount and toss him a cliff in a single action?


That specific action depends on other rules. But suppose, a character is allowed to split their “move” action into different parts, before and after their standard “wield” action. A character typically moves 10 yards (30 ft) per turn.



• The wrestler moves 2 yards, making a Jump check to reach the Hobgoblin.

• The wrestler “wields” his arms to make a Grab attack, and successfully hits, thus Grabs the Hobgoblin (inflicts the Grabbed condition).

• The Hobgoblin is now Grabbed (attached to the wrestler).

• So now, the wrestler continues the rest of the move (while attached to the Hobgoblin).

• Even tho the wrestler is Grabbing the Hobgoblin, the Hobgoblin might still be Grabbing the horse. (There may even be restraints tying the Hobgoblin into the saddle.) So, the wrestler needs to break the Grab between the Hobgoblin and the horse. The DM needs to adjudicate whether this is a free check as part of the larger action, or this requires a separate “wield” action on the next turn. If the Hobgoblin is simply sitting on the horse bareback, and only grabbing with legs, I would rule it a free check, being part of an Improvisation action. So, the successful check breaks the Hobgoblins Grab free from the horse.
 
• The Hobgoblin is heavy, so if trying to carry the Hobgoblin away, encumbrance carrying capacity might be an issue.

• If the wrestler is simply slamming the Hobgoblin down on the ground, then the Hobgoblin takes falling damage, in addition to remaining grabbed.  

• If the wrestler is sending the Hobgoblin off of a cliff, I would rule, the wrestler is falling with it. Otherwise, I would count the separate throw as a separate wield action on the next turn. However if falling with the Hobgoblin, the wrestler and the Hobgoblin are simply part of the same move action. As such, the wrestler can release the Grab as a free action, and then make a Climb check to try catch the fall. If successful, the Hobgoblin falls off of the cliff separately, while the wrestler remains on the ledge near the horse.
 


The thing is, when the rules of Grab are simple, it becomes easy to do complex maneuvers with it. Use ability checks to resolve any actions or parts of actions that seem to require an effort to succeed.
I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 



Since it is based off Pro wrestling, I assume it would only work on willing targets.  




I google it up. The way RKO is used in wrestling is safe, but used in real life and you can break somebody's neck. You basically grabbing somebody's head, using your weight to pull their head down, and slamming it against your shoulder or the floor. In short, this move will mess you up in real life. 

That why I asked what's the D&D version of this? I'm guessing a charge, plus a jump check, and a grapple check to grab the head. What should be the damage and should the target be prone?
I'm trying to make it legit so the DMs won't throw a fit if a PC(cough me) use it in combat. 

Now if we going to get serious about this, then I want to be able to break people arms and etc. 
Do this MMA style. 

I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 



Since it is based off Pro wrestling, I assume it would only work on willing targets.  




I google it up. The way RKO is used in wrestling is safe, but used in real life and you can break somebody's neck. You basically grabbing somebody's head, using your weight to pull their head down, and slamming it against your shoulder or the floor. In short, this move will mess you up in real life. 

That why I asked what's the D&D version of this? I'm guessing a charge, plus a jump check, and a grapple check to grab the head. What should be the damage and should the target be prone?
I'm trying to make it legit so the DMs won't throw a fit if a PC(cough me) use it in combat. 

Now if we going to get serious about this, then I want to be able to break people arms and etc. 
Do this MMA style. 


It seems to me, this is just a Grab with falling damage.
Perhaps some simple mechanics for basic grappling and pinning in the standard rules, then some slightly more complicated rules in the advanced rules with some manouvers to allow a fighter or barbarian to become a wrestling expert doing some more advanced moves with more interesting effects.
I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 



Both parties make a perform check.

I actually quite like Haldrik's basic idea. Pretty much covers grabbing without anything too esoteric.

With regards to making a wrestler class or having wrestle bassed manouvers; Don't like. Historical swordsmanship, from east or west, has always included (or even been founded upon) grappling. Any fighter or monk, and really just about any rogue should be able to grab, throw, pin, sweep or lock without any extra feat/manouver/etc investment. Manouvers that let them do something extra/cool, fine, but not to use the fundamentals.

Now, a Lucha Libre class that gets shamanic powers from their mask, that would be cool.
My issue with a freeform grappling and wrestling system is that it will fall into the trap of forcing DMs to make rulings on things that require deep thought to rule.

Many DMs will fall into the "roll for everything" trap. DMs will call for 3-4 checks and remove all incentives for grappling by making it too hard to really do anything with it. No one will grapple and you'll go back to 3E where either you were non grappling focus and therefore never grappled because grappling stinks Or your made a grapple PC/NPC and spammed grabs as you had a bunch of bypasses and add-ons.

Grappling is not an easy system to spontaneously think up if you want any depth. One check is too few for advanced grappling. Three or more checks adds too much failure.

I'd prefer if they just put a grappling chart somewhere. The DM can just look up what the PC wants to do and ask for 2 checks or contests to find success. Grapple check then a Wrestle check. Advantage if you use more than one free hand or whatever. DCs for pins, slams, throws, tackles, clinch attacks, locks, strangles, and holds.

In this day and age, D&D should be able to handle a tackle or a slam.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I would want a basic grappling system similar to 4E, where it is a simple action and some type of movement to resolve the attack or defense. If they want to release a module to get into all the crunchy bits then I could accept that as well.

For any type of hand to hand combat it would be what can you do with one hand, two hands, legs, and body. Then you can add in reach weapons that are for close combat (dagger), adjacent, and reach. Where the dagger would be preferred in hand to hand and a reach weapon would have a penalty.

Then you can add in creature size to the mix, or add advantage or disadvantage when considering the amount of appendages, or what happens when you are held, restrained, etc.
I want this move. Note how martial characters have an effect similar to Otto's Irresistable Dance. All done in the real world.

[video=1517901]
To my mind, what we need is not more grab rules but better ones.  The reason nobody used grab in older editions wasn't that the rules didn't let you rip a hobgoblin off his horse and toss him off a cliff, it's because doing so was so action and check intensive that it was never a wise choice.  Or, in 3.x if you were built for it and the target wasn't too big, it was so boringly-broken-awesome that players didn't use (or were banned from using) it.  I think Haldrik is right that the core mechanic of attack rolls and opposed checks is perfectly capable of handling even the most exotic of wrestling moves, without pages and pages of "here's how you model each of this list of 101 moves you've seen on WWE."  Even if you were happy to memorize such a list, it would be purely redundant and restraining in case you wanted move #102.  What we need is a package of damage and status effects for actions and checks that makes grab something other than a no-brainer (in one direction or the other).  Then flavor it as you choose with realistic college or dramatic TV wrestling moves to taste.  But ultimately it's balance that's needed, not specificity or complexity.  


1- Make a check (TH, Maneuver, CMB, whatever you wanna call it) to apply the grapple in place of a regular attack.

2- If the grappled target does not free himself untill your next turn, you can make a new check to aplly a condition such as Stun.
(grappled person gets a Str save to resist)

That's my suggestion.
Simple and useful... not overpowered since it requires more than 1 round to apply Stun and the target can try to free himself meanwhile.







More conditions could be added, maybe, for different locks, stricking to this simple system.

*Large-breasted woman grapples you.* 
*Applies Charmed condition.*
Cool

I want this move. Note how martial characters have an effect similar to Otto's Irresistable Dance. All done in the real world.



This is clearly a bard ability, and how dare you step on the bard's toes by giving this to martial characters.
I want this move. Note how martial characters have an effect similar to Otto's Irresistable Dance. All done in the real world.



This is clearly a bard ability, and how dare you step on the bard's toes by giving this to martial characters.



My apologies.  I do have a bard-vendetta.
I'd prefer a simple two check system where you can simulate a lot of grappling and wrestling moves.

Use the Grapple check in the playtest, then have another Wrestling check to use a move. If the grappler wins the Wrestle contest, the grappler can use a move.

Slam: The creature is knocked prone and takes falling damage. The grapple ends.
Strangle: The creature is restrained, cannot speak, and suffocates until they escape the grapple..
Throw: The creature is pushed 5 feet away and falls prone. The grapple ends.
Pin: The creature is knocked prone and is restrained.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'd prefer a simple two check system where you can simulate a lot of grappling and wrestling moves.

Use the Grapple check in the playtest, then have another Wrestling check to use a move. If the grappler wins the Wrestle contest, the grappler can use a move.

Slam: The creature is knocked prone and takes falling damage. The grapple ends.
Strangle: The creature is restrained, cannot speak, and suffocates until they escape the grapple..
Throw: The creature is pushed 5 feet away and falls prone. The grapple ends.
Pin: The creature is knocked prone and is restrained.



How about putting somebody in an arm bar to break their arms? 

I'd prefer a simple two check system where you can simulate a lot of grappling and wrestling moves.

Use the Grapple check in the playtest, then have another Wrestling check to use a move. If the grappler wins the Wrestle contest, the grappler can use a move.

Slam: The creature is knocked prone and takes falling damage. The grapple ends.
Strangle: The creature is restrained, cannot speak, and suffocates until they escape the grapple..
Throw: The creature is pushed 5 feet away and falls prone. The grapple ends.
Pin: The creature is knocked prone and is restrained.



How about putting somebody in an arm bar to break their arms? 




Right now there are no rules for such debilitating effects, and in my opinion, it should not have.  Swords can't lop off limbs.  Shields don't get chopped apart by axes or made unwieldable by spears.  Perhaps something that gives disadvantage until a save is made.  But I think any sort of move that pretty much ends an opponent should be looked at VERY carefully.
Right now there are no rules for such debilitating effects, and in my opinion, it should not have.  Swords can't lop off limbs.  Shields don't get chopped apart by axes or made unwieldable by spears.  Perhaps something that gives disadvantage until a save is made.  But I think any sort of move that pretty much ends an opponent should be looked at VERY carefully.



It's real simple. 

First STR check to grab, then another STR check to pin, then another STR check to break arm.
The effect is that the target can't use that arm for 6 weeks. 

And dont' give me that,"Oh but it so powerful". You can kill him with damage alone so why making a grappling move that design to disable your target is too powerful?

It look reasonablely balance to me. I spend 3 turns trying to break his arm which I could use to straight up attack him for damage. 

Seems like a basic menu (that can be reflavored) is the best way.

Grab - you have the target creature grabbed. It can't leave you unless it slips your grab or breaks it. Either of you can move on your turns but only half speed.

Hold - you maneuver the target into a painful position. Contest. STR vs ? If you beat the target in the contest, you deal damage and the target is immobilized until the start of your next turn or until you stop grappling as a free action.

Throw - you use your leverage or might to toss a grabbed creature. Contest. STR or DEX vs ? If you win, you throw the target 5 feet and it lands prone. For each point above your targets check, you throw the target that many feet in a straight line away from you. For every 10 feet the creature is thrown, it takes 1d10 damage. Anything the target hits takes half that damage.

Pin - you maneuver your opponent into a nearly inescapable lock. Contest. While pinned, the target is stunned except that it can try to slip the pin as its only action. It cannot speak while pinned. You deal no damage to a pinned target.

Good enough to screw around with?
Wrestler feat - you are treated as large-sized with respect to any maneuvers, prerequisites, or limitations (though your height & weight do not change). Your improvised and unarmed damage is increased by 1 die step.
I believe a simple system that allows you to apply a condition to the target in all you need. Prone and Immobilized are great examples of conditions that could be used. Rather than create a Contest, have the attacker target the Ability rather than AC (no reason chain mail should help against a pin). I have suggested in another post the idea of increasing damage by getting more than the 'to hit' target #. If you hit you condition the target, every 5 over gain +1W damage. Unarmed damage is 1d3+STR so if you are targeting opponents STR and roll high enough you might get a Prone condition and 2d3+STR damage.
As to a Sacrifice Throw you could give yourself Advantage on a check by apply the Prone condition on yourself automatically. 
Also remember that HP is an abstract, so the example of throwing the Hobgoblin into the cliff is simply a great description of how you did the damage. If you roll a 1 on damage maybe the Hobgoblin lands on his feet, or you roll max and he biffs face first into the cliff! 

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

Right now there are no rules for such debilitating effects, and in my opinion, it should not have.  Swords can't lop off limbs.  Shields don't get chopped apart by axes or made unwieldable by spears.  Perhaps something that gives disadvantage until a save is made.  But I think any sort of move that pretty much ends an opponent should be looked at VERY carefully.



It's real simple. 

First STR check to grab, then another STR check to pin, then another STR check to break arm.
The effect is that the target can't use that arm for 6 weeks. 

And dont' give me that,"Oh but it so powerful". You can kill him with damage alone so why making a grappling move that design to disable your target is too powerful?

It look reasonablely balance to me. I spend 3 turns trying to break his arm which I could use to straight up attack him for damage. 




First off, I think a condition plus some damage would be the way to work this.

Now, let me try to explain my problem with something like your arm break.  It is creating a seperate path to victory (ie, can't attack with his arm broken), and that has problems.  It is very hard to balance.  If it normally takes 5+ rounds to defeat an opponent, being able to do it in three is super powerful.  If it could be done in three by normal attacks, it is worthless to use.  

Why would it be worthless if it takes the same time?  Because it doesn't combine with your party doing regular damage.  Say you have done two rounds of your set-up.  The greatsword fighter is available to hit your target.  He now can either do enough to kill the guy, making your last two rounds useless, or he hits for some damage, that is irrelevant as you take the guy out of the fight by breaking his arm.  No synergy.  By using a seperate mechanic to finish opponents, you also seperate from the rest of the party.    

I believe a simple system that allows you to apply a condition to the target in all you need. Prone and Immobilized are great examples of conditions that could be used. Rather than create a Contest, have the attacker target the Ability rather than AC (no reason chain mail should help against a pin). I have suggested in another post the idea of increasing damage by getting more than the 'to hit' target #. If you hit you condition the target, every 5 over gain +1W damage. Unarmed damage is 1d3+STR so if you are targeting opponents STR and roll high enough you might get a Prone condition and 2d3+STR damage.
As to a Sacrifice Throw you could give yourself Advantage on a check by apply the Prone condition on yourself automatically. 
Also remember that HP is an abstract, so the example of throwing the Hobgoblin into the cliff is simply a great description of how you did the damage. If you roll a 1 on damage maybe the Hobgoblin lands on his feet, or you roll max and he biffs face first into the cliff! 



Like
although different story for damage if the Spartan Plumbers assosciation has been in the area.


I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 

If an ordinary, untrained person were to try this, it would simply not work. A move like this requires a level of athleticism and training that is simply not just "well anybody can do it". You cannot learn karate from watching a show. Same concept here.

Therefor, it would be wise to make it a trainable combat maneuver. Something a martial character could do. In that instance, we're looking at a single attack action that does prone + damage. If you want to reflect a more powerful version, then you can add in prone + damage + a temporary debuff that can be shaken off, plus the person doing it had to go prone as well.

K.I.S.S. (this obviously means Keep It Super Simple, amirite?)

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

I got a question for advance grappling move.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxOqYl45jSI

How to make a D&D version of this move? Looks like a lot of damage plus it puts you and your enemy to the ground. 

If an ordinary, untrained person were to try this, it would simply not work. A move like this requires a level of athleticism and training that is simply not just "well anybody can do it". You cannot learn karate from watching a show. Same concept here.

Therefor, it would be wise to make it a trainable combat maneuver. Something a martial character could do. In that instance, we're looking at a single attack action that does prone + damage. If you want to reflect a more powerful version, then you can add in prone + damage + a temporary debuff that can be shaken off, plus the person doing it had to go prone as well.

K.I.S.S. (this obviously means Keep It Super Simple, amirite?)



This I agree. I would like to spend Martial Dice to perform some awesome wrestling moves.

This is how it would work.

Everybody can start with a simple grab.

Strength or Dexterity versus the target's Str or Dex. Whichever is highest.

The target is restrained on a hit and attacks at disadvantage and is attacked at advantage.

The next attacker turn, the attacker Rolls the grab again to maintain.

This attack is an off-hand action. Throwing the target needs to be a main action if this is the same turn.

A Hobgoblin tries to grapple a target with a whip. On a hit, the target is grappled.

Advanced wrestling moves require a skill or maneuver or can't be used.
This is how damage would work. The attacker announces lethal or non-lethal.

If lethal, the wrestling move does 1d4+mods if it is the 1st main attack.

If non-lethal, it is 1d4+mods. If the damage is greater than the target's constitution, the target becomes unconscious.
Regarding nonlethal versus lethal. I am hoping for the Bloodied condition to be Core/Basic. Or at least Standard.

The target becomes Bloodied when losing half or more hitpoints.

As long as the target remains Fresh/Unbloodied, the damage is strictly superficial. Bruises and scrapes only. And after some minor first aid, completely ignorable, and able to return to full hitpoints even with these bruises and scrapes.

In this way, even massive damage during wrestling doesnt actually cause serious injuries until Bloodying the target. The first half of the hitpoints is simply getting thru the defenses of the target. (This Fresh half is where hitpoints represent energy, skill, alertness, luck.)

So compare reallife mixed-martial fighting, wrestling, boxing, and so on, that end suddenly in the first round. In D&D terms, these are represented by doing massive damage - a crit - that Bloodies the target. All of the nonbloodied damage is superficial - not serious. But once becoming Bloodied the target becomes vulnerable to game-ending effects, such as Force Surrender, Stun, and so on.

Arguably, a Bloodied character can be knocked unconscious, or pinned to the point of helplessness. But its necessary to clarify how game-ending conditions like these relates to reaching zero hitpoints.
Seems like a basic menu (that can be reflavored) is the best way.

Grab - you have the target creature grabbed. It can't leave you unless it slips your grab or breaks it. Either of you can move on your turns but only half speed. Hold - you maneuver the target into a painful position. Contest. STR vs ? If you beat the target in the contest, you deal damage and the target is immobilized until the start of your next turn or until you stop grappling as a free action.

Throw - you use your leverage or might to toss a grabbed creature. Contest. STR or DEX vs ? If you win, you throw the target 5 feet and it lands prone. For each point above your targets check, you throw the target that many feet in a straight line away from you. For every 10 feet the creature is thrown, it takes 1d10 damage. Anything the target hits takes half that damage.

Pin - you maneuver your opponent into a nearly inescapable lock. Contest. While pinned, the target is stunned except that it can try to slip the pin as its only action. It cannot speak while pinned. You deal no damage to a pinned target. Good enough to screw around with?


Grab - is the essence of wrestling and is a simple mechanic, the Grabbed condition.

I agree with those who want to “attack” the Strength “defense” of the target, to inflict the Grabbed condition. More like a touch attack that can bypass the armor class. Essentially, the attack is Str v Str, with the attacker using Str + d20 for the Strength check versus the target using Str + base 10 to set the difficulty class.

If either the attacker or the target is unencumbered with no armor or light armor, they can use Dex instead of Str.



Throw - There seems no real difference between throwing a Grabbed target versus throwing a sack of potatoes. It is just something you can do. It doesnt need special mechanics, per se. The main issue is encumbrance. Are you strong enough to lift your opponent? Probably, to throw an adult person requires above average Strength, possibly comparable to the amount of weight one can lift over their head, corresponding to the military press, about Strength score × 10 lb. So, a person with a Strength score of 200 can pick up and throw an adult weighing 200 lb. The distance thrown seems comparable to standing Jump check. Im surprised D&D seems to lack a throwing distance system. You can throw a weapon roughly 10 yards with effective aim, possibly 30 yards for a specialist. But what about something heavy, like a sack of potatoes, a log, or a person? And what simple mechanic handles distances for both light throw weapons, and heavy or awkward items?


Pin - is cool. Hopefully, only Bloodied targets (whose defenses have been penetrated) are vulnerable to game ending mechanics, like being pinned. It is first necessary to inflict the Grabbed condition as a requirement for any other wrestling conditions. There seems different ways to handle the mechanics of a pin. One is Force Surrender using Strength instead of Charisma. This makes most sense to me and corresponds with the wrestling term “submission”.

I am fine if Combat Expertise Dice grant special tricks, but these tricks must be non-normal special techniques (like pressure points), that virtually never happen during reallife hand-to-hand combat.