Wardarians?

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Barbens? Whatever. In the middle of thinking about some work-related things I had an idea about barbarian rage. What triggers rage mechanically? Is it at will? When receiving a hit? On a successful strike leading into a frenzy? Or is it when an ally gets hit/attacked? This last one is how I expect (and hope) wardens will work. While I hope paladins will be able to mark/challenge,nothing has quite scratched my 4e defender itch, yet. Having a barbarian build take care of that'd be pretty sweet.
So what do you hope to see? Whirling rage dual-wielder? Full on primal? More martial?
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
I say this as an enormous fan of the Warden, being solidly in the top three on my 'favorite 4e class' list:

I have no problem rolling it into Barbarian.  Give it a suite of appropriate defensive-minded protect-friends features, and activated 'rages' that are called something else, and there's your warden.  Even in 4e, guardian forms are mechanically indistinguishable from rages.

I expect 1h-shield to return to be a proper Warden, with some exceptions that may go for polearms for utility (if polearms give utility at all, at least).
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I am fine rolling the warden into the barbarian. I enjoyed playing a Storm Genasi Storm Warden, a Shifter Berserker, and a Dragon Sorc|Barbarian hybrid very much in 4e. The barbarian is probably my favorite D&D class overall.

That being said, I would prefer a shift away from daily resources. I like the idea of "rage points" that accumulate over the battle (when you get hit, when an ally gets hit, when you hit an enemy, depending on build). You can spend these rage points to perform powerful strikes or enter berserk rages/guardian forms. I do not want to see Rage x/day.
That being said, I would prefer a shift away from daily resources. I like the idea of "rage points" that accumulate over the battle (when you get hit, when an ally gets hit, when you hit an enemy, depending on build). You can spend these rage points to perform powerful strikes or enter berserk rages/guardian forms. I do not want to see Rage x/day.

This.

Rage should work like "tokens" did in Iron Heroes.  Actually, more mechanics should work like that in general.  I don't like daily resources either.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

Good stuff. I think rage tokens would be a good way to handle that.
Souldoubt, I know of iron heroes, but never played it. Iirc, doing certain things build up tokens which can then be traded for different special attacks/powers. Is that correct?
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
That being said, I would prefer a shift away from daily resources. I like the idea of "rage points" that accumulate over the battle (when you get hit, when an ally gets hit, when you hit an enemy, depending on build). You can spend these rage points to perform powerful strikes or enter berserk rages/guardian forms. I do not want to see Rage x/day.


That's fine for an actual rage, but for the "non-angry" rages that are going to be subsumed into the Barbarian class, there should be a different mechanic.  Warden fluff doesn't really point in the direction of a mechanic you describe.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Good stuff. I think rage tokens would be a good way to handle that. Souldoubt, I know of iron heroes, but never played it. Iirc, doing certain things build up tokens which can then be traded for different special attacks/powers. Is that correct?

In principle at least, tokens were built up by doing things which reflected the fighting style of your class.  (Most classes were based around a fighting style rather than an archetype.)  Some classes built up tokens by making special checks to "gather" them (e.g. a perception check to spot an opening in your enemies' defenses), others received tokens for dishing out damage or for getting attacked, and others still had the option to play without using tokens.  There were some problems with implementation (especially for certain classes), but the idea at least was sound, and made for a dynamic and interesting resource mechanic that wasn't beholden to the daily timeclock or encounter "reset button."  A 2nd edition was in the works to address some of the original's issues, but now, sadly, it appears to be defunct.

That being said, I would prefer a shift away from daily resources. I like the idea of "rage points" that accumulate over the battle (when you get hit, when an ally gets hit, when you hit an enemy, depending on build). You can spend these rage points to perform powerful strikes or enter berserk rages/guardian forms. I do not want to see Rage x/day.


That's fine for an actual rage, but for the "non-angry" rages that are going to be subsumed into the Barbarian class, there should be a different mechanic.  Warden fluff doesn't really point in the direction of a mechanic you describe.

I think gaining "rage" when an ally gets attacked would work for a warden-style barbarian.  The only objection I can see is calling it "rage" if it's "non-angry."  So we could call it something else, like "primal points/tokens/prowess."

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

I think this is a super good idea!  They are kind of similar in flavor, so it makes sense to build some of those fighting style - like options into this class that are widely variable.
I'd honestly prefer that it be Ranger, rather than Barbarian, than eats the Warden. The Ranger is sorely lacking in class identity, and picking up the Warden's stuff might do it some good.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I agree that the Ranger is sorely lacking in class identity, which is why I wouldn't want it to eat the Warden.

The Ranger needs to get its crap together, not steal things from others.  Get it its own thing, or let it die.

The other side is that I really do believe that Barbarian is a good fit to eat the Warden.  The mechanics are already indistinguishable, and the fluff is vastly closer to each other than either is to the Ranger's.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'd honestly prefer that it be Ranger, rather than Barbarian, than eats the Warden. The Ranger is sorely lacking in class identity, and picking up the Warden's stuff might do it some good.



The 5e Ranger needs to combine the 3e scout, the 4e hunter, and the 4e seeker. If they can draw on those classes I believe they could make for an interesting and unique ranger class. Bonus points if they utilize what they learned from the Fey Beast Tamer theme for possible animal companions.

*Yes, I prefer the ranger being more archery and woodsmany (with a dash of primal)  than dual wieldy.
I'd honestly prefer that it be Ranger, rather than Barbarian, than eats the Warden. The Ranger is sorely lacking in class identity, and picking up the Warden's stuff might do it some good.



The 5e Ranger needs to combine the 3e scout, the 4e hunter, and the 4e seeker. If they can draw on those classes I believe they could make for an interesting and unique ranger class. Bonus points if they utilize what they learned from the Fey Beast Tamer theme for possible animal companions.

*Yes, I prefer the ranger being more archery and woodsmany (with a dash of primal)  than dual wieldy.


I can get behind this completely.  Rangers should be bowshooters, we can leave Drizzt behind - finally.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
To me, the barbarian is the 2 mode warrior. Like a lycantrope, there is the normal tough guy with a few emotional tweaks....then you have the monster mode. The Warden fits this mold.

Angry tough guy-> Crazy reckless Hulk
Light spinning dervish-> Spinning human blender
Tough guy who howls-> Halfwolf berzerker
Moss covered heavy guy -> Fighting treeman who controls roots
Quick halfnaked shock trooper with erratic personality-> Lighting cover lighting greatsword charger

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'm fine with it.  I'd like barbarians to have a more primal connection rather then just "angry fighter".


At the very least, give rename "rage" to something animal-ish, like tiger's ferocity, charging bull, or angry monkey.  Then it would be easy to add defensive minded spikey hedghog and turtle as well.

With a "You take on the aspects of animals when you fight.  For most, the change can be seen in the eyes, but others have been known to take on their coloring and paterns of the animal they emulate, while others still only seem to move differently."

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I see no need to restrict it to animals.

And the names can be distinct among different Barbarian builds.  The traditional bloodthirsty berserker going nuts in battle can be actual rage, but the Warden build can have its guardian forms still.

It's the same way that clerics have domains, and those domains have differently-named spells in them.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

The 5e Ranger needs to combine the 3e scout, the 4e hunter, and the 4e seeker. If they can draw on those classes I believe they could make for an interesting and unique ranger class. Bonus points if they utilize what they learned from the Fey Beast Tamer theme for possible animal companions.

*Yes, I prefer the ranger being more archery and woodsmany (with a dash of primal)  than dual wieldy.


I can get behind this completely.  Rangers should be bowshooters, we can leave Drizzt behind - finally.



Question is, do they have the guts to go through with that? It's easy imagining the wank that would follow such a change:

"ZOMG Drizt's fighter not ranger?! RAAAAAGE!"

Speaking of rage, I wholly approve of the Wardbarian. The suspense of not knowing exactly what to expect is overwhelming.

I see no need to restrict it to animals.

And the names can be distinct among different Barbarian builds.  The traditional bloodthirsty berserker going nuts in battle can be actual rage, but the Warden build can have its guardian forms still.

It's the same way that clerics have domains, and those domains have differently-named spells in them.

"Rage" just doesn't make much sense to me.  It implies that either a fighter can't be angry, or that he should get a bonus when he finds the BBEG standing over hid dead wife.

Make it "tiger rage", and it's more of a technique.

"storm rage" could also work, if you don't want animals.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I see no need to restrict it to animals.

And the names can be distinct among different Barbarian builds.  The traditional bloodthirsty berserker going nuts in battle can be actual rage, but the Warden build can have its guardian forms still.

It's the same way that clerics have domains, and those domains have differently-named spells in them.


But some people might want to build their own barbarian. Like, in PF I'm playing a barbarian who is a catfolk. I take rage powers that enhance my cat-ness. I wouldn't want to have to follow a specific build of pre-picked rage powers unless there were ones I could choose from on a list within an archtype. I don't disagree with having archtypes though because I like being able to have choices so having one focused on more animalistic features is great, a warden and perhaps one that also does something else. 
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
mellored, it's not just the mere fact of being upset.  It's much more than that, in the way that "Mand Smash!" and "HULK SMASH!" are not the same thing.

A fighter can get angry, but a fighter getting angry doesn't do the same things to him as a barbarian getting angry.  It's not the rage, itself, it's how the rage affects the character.

"Technique" on the other hand is the exact opposite of everything that I think of when I think "Barbarian."  Technique implies a honed, practiced, methodical style.  Barbarian rages are nothing of the kind.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mellored, it's not just the mere fact of being upset.  It's much more than that, in the way that "Mand Smash!" and "HULK SMASH!" are not the same thing.

A fighter can get angry, but a fighter getting angry doesn't do the same things to him as a barbarian getting angry.  It's not the rage, itself, it's how the rage affects the character.

"Technique" on the other hand is the exact opposite of everything that I think of when I think "Barbarian."  Technique implies a honed, practiced, methodical style.  Barbarian rages are nothing of the kind.



So one of my favorite 4e characters was a Red Dragon Cursed and Geased to live lift in a human body. Mechanically I represented this by making a dragonborn Barbarian|Sorcerer. I chose every Fire rage I could all reflavored as unleashing the dragon within. It worked out very well and I would definitely like to be able to recreate this caharacter in 5e.

I agree that "rages" are not just about being angry, they are also about unleashing bursts of primal energy and channeling it through your body.
mellored, it's not just the mere fact of being upset.  It's much more than that, in the way that "Mand Smash!" and "HULK SMASH!" are not the same thing.

A fighter can get angry, but a fighter getting angry doesn't do the same things to him as a barbarian getting angry.  It's not the rage, itself, it's how the rage affects the character.

"Technique" on the other hand is the exact opposite of everything that I think of when I think "Barbarian."  Technique implies a honed, practiced, methodical style.  Barbarian rages are nothing of the kind.

Right.  "Mand Smash" is a different ability then "Hulk smash".   And Neither is genericly called "smash".

Likewise, it should not be simply be called "rage", it should be "Mand Rage", "Hulk rage", or "insert tribe name here Rage". 

But some people might want to build their own barbarian. Like, in PF I'm playing a barbarian who is a catfolk. I take rage powers that enhance my cat-ness. I wouldn't want to have to follow a specific build of pre-picked rage powers unless there were ones I could choose from on a list within an archtype. I don't disagree with having archtypes though because I like being able to have choices so having one focused on more animalistic features is great, a warden and perhaps one that also does something else.

I imagine sub-classes the same way they currently are for other classes.  I'm gunna call them tribes.

So you'd have...

"Thunder Tribe":  Throws caution to the wind and try's to flaten things with big heavy strikes.  Gain the thunder rage, and reckless strike.  At level X, gains the strom rage.

"Wolvereen Tribe": Fast and viscous.. Gain the wolvereen rage and dirvish strike.  At level X, gains the dire wolvereen rage.

"Turtle Tribe": Protectors...  Gains the turtle form and snaping strike.  At level X, gain gains the Strong-Back form.

"Oak Tribe": Proctectors...


Sidebar: Make your own tribe....  Pick a rage/form and strike combo.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Barbarian rages



Should be no more raging than anyone else's (lots of classes get angry).


Missing the point.  Read post again.

Barbarian rages aren't just getting angry.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
mellored, I fundamentally disagree that the nomenclature should be similar across all potential Barbarian builds, particularly if the Warden is getting rolled into it.  It's perfectly fine to call the traditional Barbarian things rages (with adjectives, if appropriate - we'll see how much variance there is with them), and the Warden sort of things guardian forms.  I see no reason to insist on smashing together the fluff just because it makes for symmetry.  The symmetry is a drawback to your naming suggestions, in my opinion. 

(furthermore, I don't want it to be necessarily tribal.  primal and tribal are not the same)
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits, wish is an analogy of barbarian berserker using drugs that put them into a some sort of trence trance to go into battle in an agressive rage and ignoring fatigue and pain.

4e made it interesting because you have alot of diferent kind of rages that do diferent stuff, it's actually quite tactical because they went for the metaphor of it (thought you can spend the use of a rage per day to use a rage strike, that is a very BIG vanilla hit).
mellored, I fundamentally disagree that the nomenclature should be similar across all potential Barbarian builds, particularly if the Warden is getting rolled into it.  It's perfectly fine to call the traditional Barbarian things rages (with adjectives, if appropriate - we'll see how much variance there is with them), and the Warden sort of things guardian forms.  I see no reason to insist on smashing together the fluff just because it makes for symmetry.  The symmetry is a drawback to your naming suggestions, in my opinion. 

(furthermore, I don't want it to be necessarily tribal.  primal and tribal are not the same)

I agree the nomanclature shouldn't neccicaraly be symetrical.  I did have Turtle Form, as well as Thunder Rage, and previously Angry Monkey.

Also agree it doesn't need to be tribal.

But mostly i'm just bad at comming up with names.  (i'm better at math).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits, wish is an analogy of barbarian berserker using drugs that put them into a some sort of trence trance to go into battle in an agressive rage and ignoring fatigue and pain.

4e made it interesting because you have alot of diferent kind of rages that do diferent stuff, it's actually quite tactical because they went for the metaphor of it (thought you can spend the use of a rage per day to use a rage strike, that is a very BIG vanilla hit).



Yep, I loved that each rage was different. For me, ideally the barbarian to work something like this.

Basic attacks/at-will attacks generate "Primal Power" or "Fury" or whatever you want to call it.

You can spend this primal power on a big hit - like rage strike
- or-
You can spend a few points of built up primal power to activate a "Primal Rage" or "Guardian Form" that lasts for the rest of the encounter.

This way the barbarian can be simple but still have depth and complexity. A level 1 barbarian might know a few at-will strikes and 1 or 2 rages, learning more as he levels.
I don't like how backloaded that makes the mechanic.  The first couple rounds are the most important - if I want to use my big encounter-long rageness, I'll be wanting to do it right now.

Oh, also houseruling this in:

Nerd Rage
A primal internet spirit that has skimmed something important has given you pieces of misinformation about it.

You become immune to fire and gain logic resistance.  You also get a +10 bonus to typing speed.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

Not all barbaric folk are barbarians.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.  This is what is called an "example" and it's a failure of logic to extrapolate that someone has meant that an example indicates the full truth of something.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

Not all barbaric folk are barbarians.



Quite correct.

One can be 'barbaric' without being a member of Class Barbarian, and one can be a member of Class Barbarian without being 'barbaric'.  Class is just a collection of mechanical abilities; concept is something entirely different.
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

Not all barbaric folk are barbarians.




Ah, and here is the crux of the problem, not all barbarians are barbaric.
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.




And it is silly.
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.




And it is silly.



It is also not true.
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

Not all barbaric folk are barbarians

Ah, and here is the crux of the problem, not all barbarians are barbaric.

So...

Peacock rage?  Hit things and you can charm them?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,




Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.




And it is silly.



It is also not true.




What's not true, in your opinion? 
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,

Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.

And it is silly.

More silly then anger being the source of your power?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I liked the primal spirits thing. Actually I liked the whole primal power source.
"Rages" on 4e is getting posessed by primal spirits,

Not all barbaric folk care about spirits, or possession 

They did in 4e.

And it is silly.

More silly then anger being the source of your power?




That can work to a point, but anger usually clouds skill, loses you fights.
While keeping the fluff maleable, there should be a distinction between "rage powers" and "guardian forms", although both could exist in a single class. The former is more akin to a non-magical adrenaline boost that yields some form of superhuman physical result, while the latter is clearly magical in nature. Just like people not wanting their rangers in previous editions to have spellcasting, not all barbarians will want their unique feature to be "magical". This is especially true if a specific campaign is magic-lite, and allowing the DM to limit the choices to the "non-magical" would be helpful.

Magic Dual Color Test
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Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
The exception to the "usually" part being "if you're a Barbarian"
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I liked the primal spirits thing. Actually I liked the whole primal power source.




I like Primal Spirits too (The World Serpent rocks, that was split into the Two Serpents: Janzirai, Lord of Couatls, and Aeshma, later to become Asmodeus, in some cosmologies); Power Sources, not so much.