Larger or smallest Shields and AC

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What happen if a Medium Character use a Small Heavy Shield (Light Weapon with -2), he gain the same AC and ACP that using a Medium Heavy Shield??

Other example If you are a medium Character and you are Using a Huge Light Shield (Two Handed weapon with -4) you still gain the same AC and ACP from it???
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You can't wear armor that is sized for a different sized creature and that rule would extend to shields as well meaning that you can not properly wield a sheild sized for a different size creatuer and expect to gain the same benefits.  Just like a human warrior shouldn't be able to "strap on" a halfling's breastplate and expect to gain any meaningful protection he can not pick up that halfling's heavy shield and expect it to protect him.

Now some DMs may allow light and heavy shields to but used up or down one size category but call it the other size although that would be a houserule.  This would enable a medium sized character to wield a small heavy shield as a light shield.  Note that this is just a houserule that could be used.

Wielding a shield as a weapon is a different topic and falls under a heading I don't want to go into.   

Seriously, dood: if your goal is to troll us, don't bother. The only thing I'm going to tell you is "Look up the rules for creatures using armor that isn't their size."
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Seriously, dood: if your goal is to troll us, don't bother. The only thing I'm going to tell you is "Look up the rules for creatures using armor that isn't their size."

Oma is asking rules. Do you honestly believe there is any other possible goal?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
You can't wear armor that is sized for a different sized creature and that rule would extend to shields as well meaning that you can not properly wield a sheild sized for a different size creatuer and expect to gain the same benefits.  Just like a human warrior shouldn't be able to "strap on" a halfling's breastplate and expect to gain any meaningful protection he can not pick up that halfling's heavy shield and expect it to protect him.

Now some DMs may allow light and heavy shields to but used up or down one size category but call it the other size although that would be a houserule.  This would enable a medium sized character to wield a small heavy shield as a light shield.  Note that this is just a houserule that could be used.

Wielding a shield as a weapon is a different topic and falls under a heading I don't want to go into.   

you can quote the rule that you can't use armor that not are of your size please.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Seriously, dood: if your goal is to troll us, don't bother. The only thing I'm going to tell you is "Look up the rules for creatures using armor that isn't their size."

Oma is asking rules. Do you honestly believe there is any other possible goal?

If you want honesty, YES.

Maybe you haven't seen how often Oma asks a question and then argues about what he is told.  And this isn't even when just one person is telling him something but when three or four other peope give him the same answer and then he goes and starts telling all of us the we are wrong.  Why is that?  We don't know but it is common.

Another "issue" with this thread is when he brings up "Other example If you are a medium Character and you are Using a Huge Light Shield (Two Handed weapon with -4)" which ties back into a massive arguement about Monkey Grip, weapon sizes, and how the two interact that seems to have died down a while ago.  It has a little to do with the idea that an object's overall size will mean that it can still be used by different sized creatures for its intended purpose.
 
Seriously, dood: if your goal is to troll us, don't bother. The only thing I'm going to tell you is "Look up the rules for creatures using armor that isn't their size."

Oma is asking rules. Do you honestly believe there is any other possible goal?

If you want honesty, YES.

Maybe you haven't seen how often Oma asks a question and then argues about what he is told.  And this isn't even when just one person is telling him something but when three or four other peope give him the same answer and then he goes and starts telling all of us the we are wrong.  Why is that?  We don't know but it is common.

Another "issue" with this thread is when he brings up "Other example If you are a medium Character and you are Using a Huge Light Shield (Two Handed weapon with -4)" which ties back into a massive arguement about Monkey Grip, weapon sizes, and how the two interact that seems to have died down a while ago.  It has a little to do with the idea that an object's overall size will mean that it can still be used by different sized creatures for its intended purpose.
 

monky grip dont have nothing to do here because monky grip don't affect huge weapons and any commoner can use a huge light weapon as an two handed weapon with -4 in her attacks.

the fact here is that an tower Shield have the same zise that the Huge light Shiled but have more ACP and more AC, then what happen in this case.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
And EruditeApe, here is an example of the things we get sick of seeing.
you can quote the rule that you can't use armor that not are of your size please.



Probably not without digging out my printed PHB and DMG but why would you EVER think that you could wear armor sized for a different creature?  How old are you?  Can you still wear the same clothes you did when you were in pre-school?  It should be pretty obvious that there is no way you can realistically expect to wear armor sized for a smaller sized creature.  Going the other way I guess we could fit a suit of armor around a smaller creature but there are going to be massive gaps in protection and there is no way it would fit well enough not to be a major hinderance.  Does it REALLY take a direct rule quote for you to believe I'm right on this issue? 
And EruditeApe, here is an example of the things we get sick of seeing.
you can quote the rule that you can't use armor that not are of your size please.



Probably not without digging out my printed PHB and DMG but why would you EVER think that you could wear armor sized for a different creature?  How old are you?  Can you still wear the same clothes you did when you were in pre-school?  It should be pretty obvious that there is no way you can realistically expect to wear armor sized for a smaller sized creature.  Going the other way I guess we could fit a suit of armor around a smaller creature but there are going to be massive gaps in protection and there is no way it would fit well enough not to be a major hinderance.  Does it REALLY take a direct rule quote for you to believe I'm right on this issue? 

well for sure i can use the shirt of a large creature but not the one of a small creature unless i not need to breathe.

now the Shield is other history, i can still use the Shiled of my Capitan America action figure with only 2 fingers and i don't thing that this shiled give me +2 to my AC

Yes because like in the example of if you can hold more a ready you never agree with me until a quoting rule appeared saying that the standard rule is that you can hold your ready for free.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It happens. My centurion AbC recently cast a mage armor spell on himself, two sizes too large. He was tripping over his too-long mage armor booties and dropping his spell components and sword because of his too-long mage armor sleeves the whole battle.

His mage armor helmet kept falling over his eyes too, but fortunately, because mage armor is invisible, he could still see through it...
Steven, EA is well aware of the Oma issue. He was asking if there was a purpose other than trolling. Obviously, the answer is an emphatic "no".
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

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Darn. I leave for an hour, and I miss all the fun.
Steven, EA is well aware of the Oma issue. He was asking if there was a purpose other than trolling. Obviously, the answer is an emphatic "no".

This.

But how come I always miss the CoC-filled fun-fests?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I have no idea, but one of my posts was deleted.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Steven, EA is well aware of the Oma issue. He was asking if there was a purpose other than trolling. Obviously, the answer is an emphatic "no".

This.

But how come I always miss the CoC-filled fun-fests?

Normally they don't.  At least not like the CoC filled fun fest I've seen on the Char-Op board recently.
The one size fits all simplification rules applies only within a size range (ie all medium creatures fit medium armor) In reality (and I believe in older games) you would still need to get the armor fitted, since a creature 140lb 5 foot 7 inch creature and another creature 6 foot 3 inch, and 220 lb are both medium sized, we are already stretching credulity to say they will fit into the same sized armor.

The DMG, under magic items, adresses this I do beleive, but I will have to wait until I am home to read it.


This would apply to shields. Even if a Large creature's small shield would be the same size as a medium creatures large shield the grips would be spaced differently. A small shield typically has a hand grip in the center and a larger shield attaches to the whole forearm. So in this case the Large creature's shield wouldn't be able to attach to the medium creature's forearm properly. There is also a difference in spacing, Both a regular and a larger shield might cover the same space from the forearm to the neck, but the larger one covers further down and to the side as well. So you are comparing a circular shield with an Oval shield. So with this difference the large creature's small shield's grip would be misalligned and be too high from the grip (blocking your face) etc etc.

No, to use a Large creature's shield would require a complete overhaul of the shield to put in a proper grip for it's new shield size in the right spot and rebalance it. Esentially you woudl be using the large creature's shield to build a medium creature's shield.
The one size fits all simplification rules applies only within a size range (ie all medium creatures fit medium armor) In reality (and I believe in older games) you would still need to get the armor fitted, since a creature 140lb 5 foot 7 inch creature and another creature 6 foot 3 inch, and 220 lb are both medium sized, we are already stretching credulity to say they will fit into the same sized armor.

The DMG, under magic items, adresses this I do beleive, but I will have to wait until I am home to read it.


This would apply to shields. Even if a Large creature's small shield would be the same size as a medium creatures large shield the grips would be spaced differently. A small shield typically has a hand grip in the center and a larger shield attaches to the whole forearm. So in this case the Large creature's shield wouldn't be able to attach to the medium creature's forearm properly. There is also a difference in spacing, Both a regular and a larger shield might cover the same space from the forearm to the neck, but the larger one covers further down and to the side as well. So you are comparing a circular shield with an Oval shield. So with this difference the large creature's small shield's grip would be misalligned and be too high from the grip (blocking your face) etc etc.

No, to use a Large creature's shield would require a complete overhaul of the shield to put in a proper grip for it's new shield size in the right spot and rebalance it. Esentially you woudl be using the large creature's shield to build a medium creature's shield.

well the problem is that i don't find the rule of that a creature can't but exist a rule that a creature can use the shield, as a weapon a Huge Light Shield is a light weapon for a Huge creature and a two handed weapon for a medium creature (like have a big table that cover you and you can use it to push others) but for sure this is more hard that use a Tower Shield but under the rules her ACP and her AC dont change (ACP is -1 while should be more that 10).

and i dont find nothing about the Size of the armors in the DMG (pag 216-218) maybe al random armors and shields are mediums.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Is this what you want to hear?

The AC provided by a shield only depends on the type of shield it is.  The size of the wielder doesn't matter one bit. 
That does remind me of my idea of strapping Fine mithral bucklers to your arm (though that was for the magical effects).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

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Except that Sheilds are listed as Armor. Even using  inapropriately sized weapon rules, the listing for shields under "weapons" would apply only to using shields as weapons, and not their AC benifits for armor. The You have to change the category of the weapon.

So a large creature's heavy shield, as a 1-handed weapon, would become a 2 Handed weapon for a medium creature with a -2 penelty.

As there is no rule for 2-handed shields in the game nor for innapropriately sized shields, but needless to say Your character is not profiencet in 2-handed Sheilds, so you would add the armor check penelty to attack rolls in addition to the inappropriate sized Weapon.


Now you will say, How about a light Shield? as a large light weapon it becomes a 1-handed weapon. You have a point, however as a light shield as an Armor check penelty of 1 and a heavy an armor check penelty of 2, so I would argue that this is inappropriate. Applying the  penelty for inapropriate weapons would be the reasonable solution with a -1 to all attacks.

A Buckler is not on the weapons list so can't be used with the innapropriate sized weapon rules, neither can a Tower Shield.
Is this what you want to hear?

The AC provided by a shield only depends on the type of shield it is.  The size of the wielder doesn't matter one bit. 

you can quote that rule please because the DMG say that the AC that the shield give represents her protective value :s

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Except that Sheilds are listed as Armor. Even using  inapropriately sized weapon rules, the listing for shields under "weapons" would apply only to using shields as weapons, and not their AC benifits for armor. The You have to change the category of the weapon.

So a large creature's heavy shield, as a 1-handed weapon, would become a 2 Handed weapon for a medium creature with a -2 penelty.

As there is no rule for 2-handed shields in the game nor for innapropriately sized shields, but needless to say Your character is not profiencet in 2-handed Sheilds, so you would add the armor check penelty to attack rolls in addition to the inappropriate sized Weapon.


Now you will say, How about a light Shield? as a large light weapon it becomes a 1-handed weapon. You have a point, however as a light shield as an Armor check penelty of 1 and a heavy an armor check penelty of 2, so I would argue that this is inappropriate. Applying the  penelty for inapropriate weapons would be the reasonable solution with a -1 to all attacks.

A Buckler is not on the weapons list so can't be used with the innapropriate sized weapon rules, neither can a Tower Shield.

well the Fighter is profiencet with ALL Shields, and the Huge light Shield not is a exotic weapon, then he only have the problem of size to attack with him or use as shield under the rules, and i know it about the Buckler and the tower Shield and still a Huge Light Shield that added the size penalty to her ACP have a total of -5 while the tower Shiled have -10 and still he can as free action drop the huge light shield over her and take total cover while with the tower shiled is standard action.

but still i don't find the rule that say that you can use armor of shield of other size.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
you can quote that rule please because the DMG say that the AC that the shield give represents her protective value :s



AC represents any item's protective value..... So the protective value of a shield only depends on the type of shield it is, and not it's size.

You are blathering nonsense again. 

you can quote that rule please because the DMG say that the AC that the shield give represents her protective value :s



AC represents any item's protective value..... So the protective value of a shield only depends on the type of shield it is, and not it's size.

You are blathering nonsense again. 


then you are saying that a Medium creature with a Huge Light Steel Shield and gain +1 to her AC and -5 ACP and under the rules because is a Medium Object it give Improved Cover (bacause you gain cover as medium for a small object and Improved cover for a medium object) and gain +8 cover bonus to her AC and +4 to her reflex saves??? because is two handed and literally walk carrying a wall in front (you maybe dont see nothing as well)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Is this what you want to hear?

The AC provided by a shield only depends on the type of shield it is.  The size of the wielder doesn't matter one bit. 

you can quote that rule please because the DMG say that the AC that the shield give represents her protective value :s




Should I, or anyone else for that matter, even bother replying to your posts?  If we cite rules and you don't like them you just argue and argue and argue.  If we don't cite rules then you start insisting the WE must find them because it seems you can't.  Perhaps I should delete all of my replies to your posts because it doesn't matter what I say you are never happy.
 
What do you want to hear for an answer so we can all stop wasting out time?

What do you want to hear for an answer so we can all stop wasting out time?

the page of the rule that you can't use armors that not are your size.

because yours are based in this rule. i can't find it in the DMG errata, Web, FQA or DMG.

and when someone quote rules i always take it, as example the rules of Boost CON (you are always saying about this but you never quote the rule i find it) the one that say that you can name the Spell when you make your ready, and like you when i was saying that you can hold your ready while the STANDARD RULE OF DMG that is totally right.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, this is a case where you need to find rules that say you can.

As for Fighters having "ALL" shields, that would apply to all shields of their size. Since Inapropriate weapon rules don't apply to armor, it's unreasonable to expect that Fighters have a 2-handed Shield proficency.

The DMG, under Magic Item Sizes, Explains that many Magic items will magically resize itself to the wielder, this is magical and is for aticles of clothing and jewelry, and although a DM could certainly add this quality to armor and weapons, the Random tables for Amor size indicates this is not the practice to aply to armor (since there is no one-size fits all table)

Now as Armor does come in different sizes and Mundane, this indicates that it is intended for a certain sized person. If it could be worn by different sizes then there seems little reason to have different sizes, and there certainly would be a system to do so, as there is with weapons. In the absence of a system of penelties, it is fair to say that You need to find the rule that says you can do this.

Otherwise, as a fair ruling, what I suggested with the shields is the most practicle way of handling it.  This is an attempt to sugest a fair ruling by a DM. 
Oma, the rule disallowing inappropriately sized armor is in the PHB. Is that good enough, or are you going to argue that it has to come from the DMG? And if it is good enough, do you think you can find it yourself, or would you like me to hold your hand & do it for you?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, this is a case where you need to find rules that say you can.

As for Fighters having "ALL" shields, that would apply to all shields of their size. Since Inapropriate weapon rules don't apply to armor, it's unreasonable to expect that Fighters have a 2-handed Shield proficency.

The DMG, under Magic Item Sizes, Explains that many Magic items will magically resize itself to the wielder, this is magical and is for aticles of clothing and jewelry, and although a DM could certainly add this quality to armor and weapons, the Random tables for Amor size indicates this is not the practice to aply to armor (since there is no one-size fits all table)

Now as Armor does come in different sizes and Mundane, this indicates that it is intended for a certain sized person. If it could be worn by different sizes then there seems little reason to have different sizes, and there certainly would be a system to do so, as there is with weapons. In the absence of a system of penelties, it is fair to say that You need to find the rule that says you can do this.

Otherwise, as a fair ruling, what I suggested with the shields is the most practicle way of handling it.  This is an attempt to sugest a fair ruling by a DM. 

1- A fighter Proficient with a Long Sword are Proficient with any Long Sword (larger and Smaller) while him can handle it, and no rule say otherwise about the armors.

2- the DMG only say that the Magic Items Automatic Rezise to match with you or are adjustable.

and the rules of weapons should be the same with armors (about not be resizable)

then what kind of variant rule???

Because if you use it as a weapon and not as a shield this let you +8 cover bonus and +4 to your Reflex Save and with a little trick to see through it this become broken because you only take -5 ACP
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You're not going to bother looking it up, are you?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1- Oma a fighter proficient with longswords can only use a large longsword with a -2 penalty and as a 2-handed weapon, so if you wish to apply this to armor, then a heavy shield becomes a 2-handed shield, you can't use it with a weapon. Also since there is no method of using incorectly sized armor (like there is for weapons) is stands that you can't use it.

2: The DMG says that they are often magically resized and it refered to magical items in a seperate entry on weapon and armor sizes. ie a magic ring doesn't have a small/med/large size, nor does a magic robe, etc. Magic weapons and armor do, so they don't resize. This means that a Large plate armor stays a large plate armor. 

It stands that an enlarge/shrink spell could be applied as an enhancement to armor, but that would cost extra would it not?

3. Let me get this right, a Large light shield is 1 AC, a medium tower Shield is 4 AC, so you want to be able to use the Large light shield as a 1-handed shield that provides 9 AC?

Using it as Cover?  Well a large heavy Shield is 30lb and a medium tower shield is 45 lbs, so i don't believe they are comparible at all. and that is the biggest shield a large creature can use. I would also suggest we look at the ACP of a tower shield and see that are not comparible. So no a Large heavy Shield would not be usable as a tower shield by a medium creature.

So maybe, a large heavy shield could provide cover to a tiny creature, but then so could any object that is large enough, that wouldn't make it a shield anymore then hiding behind a bookcase would.

So yes, you could flip your kitchen table over and use it for cover, but you couldn't carry it around as a shield.

The best you can get here is using a light shield as a 1 Handed Shield, but it would only provide the AC of a light shield.
1- Oma a fighter proficient with longswords can only use a large longsword with a -2 penalty and as a 2-handed weapon, so if you wish to apply this to armor, then a heavy shield becomes a 2-handed shield, you can't use it with a weapon. Also since there is no method of using incorectly sized armor (like there is for weapons) is stands that you can't use it.

2: The DMG says that they are often magically resized and it refered to magical items in a seperate entry on weapon and armor sizes. ie a magic ring doesn't have a small/med/large size, nor does a magic robe, etc. Magic weapons and armor do, so they don't resize. This means that a Large plate armor stays a large plate armor. 

It stands that an enlarge/shrink spell could be applied as an enhancement to armor, but that would cost extra would it not?

3. Let me get this right, a Large light shield is 1 AC, a medium tower Shield is 4 AC, so you want to be able to use the Large light shield as a 1-handed shield that provides 9 AC?

Using it as Cover?  Well a large heavy Shield is 30lb and a medium tower shield is 45 lbs, so i don't believe they are comparible at all. and that is the biggest shield a large creature can use. I would also suggest we look at the ACP of a tower shield and see that are not comparible. So no a Large heavy Shield would not be usable as a tower shield by a medium creature.

So maybe, a large heavy shield could provide cover to a tiny creature, but then so could any object that is large enough, that wouldn't make it a shield anymore then hiding behind a bookcase would.

So yes, you could flip your kitchen table over and use it for cover, but you couldn't carry it around as a shield.

The best you can get here is using a light shield as a 1 Handed Shield, but it would only provide the AC of a light shield.

1- ¬¬ well many of the facts of the common sence apply when the rules don't say nothing about this minor inconveniences like what happen if i am walking with a table in front of me or how i take the objects, now i was using the Penalty of -4 in her ACP as normal is -1 and with the -4 it become -5.

2- Well Then if no rule say that you can put the large Armor then how you prevent it to use the armor' the web rules only say that you need use the item in prudent form to gain the Bonus then i think in this case he dont gain the AC of the armor but what happen of the ASP???? and if he dont use it as an armor then he gain cover and the cover are more powerful that the standard AC form armor or shields

3- ok the Huge Light Shiled is a Medium Size object under the rules if you dont use her Shield Bonus to the AC he grant you Cover bonus to your AC then as a medium object he going to give you 8 cover bonus to your AC and nothing of Shield bonus because you are using it as a weapon not as a shield but still is a wall that you are moving with your two hands and let you cover

4- OK the Tower Shield are from Wood while the Huge Light Steel Shield are from steel and weight 24 Lb but have the same size of the tower shield.

5- Now under the rules of weapons this weapon is a Medium Size Object that Have the Form that can give you cover and the cover rules say that this kind of Object give you +8 Cover bonus like a fighter that use a table to gain cover.

6- Yes but if you dont count it as a shield this become better because don't have ASP and give more AC that a standard shield, and if you can see the target with some super sense this become overpower.

7- yes but this break a Official RULE the one that say that you can use a Huge Light Weapon with 2 hands.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I'll take that as a "no", since you're still arguing for your position.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I'll take that as a "no", since you're still arguing for your position.

well look likes if all of yours work under non-existing rules.

this is a serious issue because the rule serious issue but no rule protect again it or make a balance.

Under the weapon Equibalence Rule you can make the shiled a tower Shield and then any object like a shield that he are using gain the rules of the Tower shield but under the Standard this rule don't apply and then how can be control the fact of use a Size of Shield that its not cover in the rules.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I already told you where to find the rules; they're not "non-existing". Maybe you should pay more attention to what other people say, rather than your own nonsensical ramblings.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I already told you where to find the rules; they're not "non-existing". Maybe you should pay more attention to what other people say, rather than your own nonsensical ramblings.

well you can please quote the rule that you know?????
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

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I already told you where to find the rules; they're not "non-existing". Maybe you should pay more attention to what other people say, rather than your own nonsensical ramblings.

well you can please quote the rule that you know?????



Oma, if a rule doesn't exist, then anything you do in that regard is simply a houserule. Of course houserules are par for the course, but they should be based on a system that is fair. The DMG suggests that in such cases as where rules don't cover a subject that the DM use common sense and compare it to other rulesets.

But whatever you do, is a Houserule, not RAW.

If you want RAW, then YOU NEED TO FIND THE RULES THAT SAYS YOU CAN DO IT, rather then rules that say you can't. 

In other words, you have to find a rule that says you are able to do it, and failing that, come up with a house rule to that effect.


Now since the books don't say that you can wear armor of an inappropriate size, and in fact suggests that you can't wear inapropriate sized armor, since if you could it would outline rules for it as it does weapons (not to mention it talks about armor for unusual sized creatures, which if you are the wrong size you would be an unusually sized creature) So create a fair houserule.

As I brought up with weapons. Neither a Large light nor Large heavy shield is comparible in size to a Tower shield, so the cover idea is blown. It would be apparent that a shield would have to be at least 2 sizes greater then the user to be used like a tower shield. A Buckler is attached to the arm so that you can still hold items, and is not on the weapons table, so I think it shoudl not be wearable in the same manner by a small creature. So really only light and Heavy Shields work this way.

The closest rule you can find is that for weapons, it stipulates a change when used by innapropriate sized creatures light-1-hand-2handed. And since some shields appear on the Weapons table it is reasonable to use it.

a light shield becomes a 1-handed shield medium creature. A Heavy Shield becomes a 2-handed shield for a medium creature and a Large Tower shield is unusable (just like a large greatsword)

Buckler is designed to fit so user can hold a weapon, so a larger buckler will not fit.  However I will suggest treating it light a light shield and allowing 1 step downwards only with no adjustment. (medium creature can use large buckler as a lgith shield, no ac adjustment, large creature can't use a medium buckler)

Now you say Weapon damage increases and the shield is larger. This is a point, however, obviously if a light shield (1ac) becomes a 1-handed shield (similiar wieght so similair size) so it would be unlikely to provide more protection for the same size as a Heavy Shield especialy if it doesn't fit right. So I would recomend only a 1 AC size adjustment. 

Heavy Shield is 15 lb, Tower shield is 45 lb, so a large heavy shield 30 lbs does not equal a tower shield. A Huge heavy shield is 60lbs so it is too big to be usable. In this manner a Large heavy shield 2ac cannot equal a medium tower shield 4ac

I would additionally double the Armor check penelties   

So as follows,

Large shields usable by medium creatures.double ACP
Buckler- treated light light shield, no AC adjustment
Light Shield- 1-handed, +1 AC 
Heavy Shield-2-handed, +1 AC, (technically -2 penelty to all attacks, but moot as you can't hold a weapon)
TowerShield- Too Big

Medium Shield used by Large creature: double ACP
Buckler-Too Small to be useful, doesn't fit
Light -1 AC, makes this useless as a sheild, Consider being used as buckler 1 ac, cannot hold items
Heavy Shield: light, -1 AC
Tower Shield: -1 AC, but as it is too big to be a heavy shield, the creature is treated as not having the shield proficiency and takes the armor check penelty to all attacks, cannot be used for full cover as a tower shield. (large tower shield would wiegh 90 lbs to do this)

Small creature using Large Shields  triple ACP
Buckler: Unusable:
Light Shield: 2-handed shield +2 AC, can't hold any weapons.
Heavy Shield: Cannot use
Tower Shield, Cannot use 

Huge creature using Medium Shields tripple ACP
Buckler: unusable
Light Shield: Unusable
Heavy Shield:  light, but -2 ac makes it useless as shield. Consider being used as buckler 1 ac, cannot hold items
Tower Shield:  45 lbs, too heavy for a light shield, too light for a heavy shield, allow it to be used as a light shield -2ac, but armor check penelty applies to all attacks.

Would be a fair houserule regarding shields
I couldn't find it specifically in PHB but it's stated quite plainly in Rules Compendium pg 84


Shields



Shields don’t change size to match the wielder. You can’t use an inappropriately sized shield.


Edit: Also, just in case the subject of Rules Precedence comes up, Rules Compendium pg 5 under 'Introduction' states, "When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how to play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer that question."