Need help optimizing implement attack rolls for Ranger|Wizard

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Greenda, level 12
Human, Ranger|Wizard, War Wizard of Cormyr
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Archery Mastery: Rapid Shot Mastery
Hybrid Talent: Ranger Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Bow)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Arcane Fundamentals: Nightmare Eruption
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, Cormyr (General) (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 11, Dex 17, Int 21, Wis 16, Cha 9.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 10, Dex 15, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 8.



AC: 26 Fort: 22 Reflex: 25 Will: 27
HP: 76 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 19


TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +11, Perception +14, Arcana +16, Acrobatics +14, Nature +14


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +5, Heal +9, History +13, Insight +12, Intimidate +5, Religion +13, Stealth +8, Streetwise +5, Thievery +8


FEATS
Human: Battle Caster Defense (retrained to War Wizardry at Level 11)
Level 1: Archery Mastery
Level 2: Moonbow Dedicate
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Versatile Expertise
Level 8: Armor Proficiency: Ring Mail
Level 10: Superior Will
Level 11: Moonbow Prelate
Level 12: Nusemnee's Atonement


POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Nightmare Eruption
Hybrid at-will 1: Magic Missile
Hybrid at-will 1: Nimble Strike (retrained to Rapid Shot (Archery Mastery) at Level 2)
Hybrid encounter 1: Fox's Cunning
Hybrid daily 1: Wizard's Fury
Hybrid utility 2: Irregular Dispersal
Hybrid encounter 3: Blissful Ignorance
Hybrid daily 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
Hybrid utility 6: Stalker's Mist
Hybrid encounter 7: Disruptive Strike
Hybrid daily 9: Thousand Arrow Awareness
Hybrid utility 10: Mass Resistance


ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Quenchquiver Shortbow +2, Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (4), Arrows (300), Gauntlets of Swimming and Climbing, Tactician's Ring Mail +2, Vicious Shortbow +3, Eagle Eye Goggles (paragon tier), Medallion of the Mind +3
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OK, this is a character that I am running in Living Forgotten Realms.  I started her at level 8 as a Ranger|Wizard and went with the War Wizard of Cormyr paragon path, to change Nightmare Eruption into a basic attack.  She uses a short bow for her implement attacks as well as for any weapon attacks.

Right now, Nightmare Eruption is at +18 vs Will.  Since she uses it through Rapid Shot, this is actually +16 vs. Will.  I am trying to find a way to get that value higher, so she can hit more often. 

Also, other suggestions would be welcome (power retrains, feats, etc.)

I think my feats and powers are good, but if there is something out there that I don't know about, it would be good to know. 

Greenda's whole purpose is to annoy the enemies with lots of splash damage.  If she has to target an ally with a power, she is at -5 to the attack, she halves the damage and she can take that damage onto herself and resist 10 of it.  So, she will rarely do more than 1 point of damage to herself and maybe 6 points of damage to an ally.  She started out with Rapid Shot Magic Missile, which is fun for clearing out large groups of minions, but it was lacking a bit (and other players got annoyed that I could just spam MM whenever and do lots of damage with it without lifting a d20.)

So, I retrained my Ranger at-will, Twin Strike, for Nightmare Eruption.  Nightmare Eruption is fun to use with Rapid Shot, because if I hit something, any enemies adjacent take INT-modifier psychic damage also.  And that means that if I can hit each enemy in a burst 1, I am dealing out a nice chunk of splash damage as well.  (Yes.  I made Nightmare Eruption into a basic attack by taking the War Wizard of Cormyr paragon path.)

I have two Ranger powers which I can still use Hunter's Quarry with.  I made the decision to abandon Twin Strike in favor of Nightmare Eruption so I would have to make attack rolls, to appease the other guys with whom I play LFR.  I like having Magic Missile in case I need a quick power which I can just throw out there.

tl;dr = How can I make +18 vs Will (+16 vs Will using Rapid Shot) at level 12 into something higher?
Headband of Intellect, Circlet of Mental Onslaught, or Eagle Eye Goggles are all options (though they are all head slot, so you'd have to pick one)

EDIT: After re-reading your character sheet again, I see you've already got the Paragon Eagle Eye Goggles, so never mind! 
Headband of Intellect, Circlet of Mental Onslaught, or Eagle Eye Goggles are all options (though they are all head slot, so you'd have to pick one)

EDIT: After re-reading your character sheet again, I see you've already got the Paragon Eagle Eye Goggles, so never mind! 



Hah!  That's what I was missing.... the builder isn't including that +2 on Nightmare Eruption since it doesn't see it as a "ranged basic attack" but as a "basic attack".  So, that's the other +2 I was missing.

So, Nightmare Eruption is actually +18 vs Will (+16 vs Will through Rapid Shot.) 

That looks a little bit better now.

Thanks for spotting that.
Why do you have Versatile Expertise? Doesn't Moonbow Dedicate give you a +1/2/3 feat bonus to hit? Why do you have Disruptive Strike vs. any number of really good Wizard encounter powers?

Also, your character isn't legal - you need to have one ranger at-will, which you don't actually have. 
You're missing out on a Superior Implement bonus, putting you 1 behind.

Sadly, the Purple Dragon theme is for melee

Combat Advantage is a semi-easy +2.  Hidden Sniper would be good for CA, if you had a reliable way to get concealment/partial concealment.  Flare at U2 would give you 2 turns worth of partial concealment every encounter to feed CA via Hidden Sniper.  And it would probably fit thematically, just present it as firing a specialty arrow into the air.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Why do you have Versatile Expertise? Doesn't Moonbow Dedicate give you a +1/2/3 feat bonus to hit? Why do you have Disruptive Strike vs. any number of really good Wizard encounter powers?

Also, your character isn't legal - you need to have one ranger at-will, which you don't actually have. 





Rapid Shot is a Ranger at-will attack power. The character is legal, if sub-optimal for not having a way to use HQ every round. I have Disruptive Strike for that one time I want to try to use HQ.

Also, Moonbow Dedicate gives a +1/2/3 feat bonus to damage rolls, not to attack rolls. (Granted, having the expertise feat was only there for Disruptive Strike until I hit paragon and took Nightmare Eruption. The original purpose of this build was the spam MM all the time and only have to roll maybe three times during an encounter (initiative, disruptive strike, saving throw(s).)




Now that I have Nightmare Eruption, though... I need the expertise feat to help with her attack bonus. As was mentioned, I don't have a superior implement, so I'm behind the curve a bit on my implement attacks. CA does help, though.


Sorry to hijack a little here, but would this hybrid work better with ranger|sorc if I wanted to do more strikery things? Cha, Dex works and I could take something like dragonfrost or acid orb as an RBA so dont need the Cormyr PP.
I think the intent is to overlap the splash damage of mulitple Nightmare Eruptions. Hopefully the campaign will consist of a lot of 3x3 phalanxes of goblins and such.
Yeah. The reason it is RangerlWizard is because I originally uses it to spam Magic Missile with no attack rolls.
Yeah. The reason it is RangerlWizard is because I originally uses it to spam Magic Missile with no attack rolls.



Let's pretend you did not say that. Is there a "good" reason to want to mix these two classes? Sorcerer|Ranger would be quite a bit easier to pull off. 

Yeah. The reason it is RangerlWizard is because I originally uses it to spam Magic Missile with no attack rolls.



Let's pretend you did not say that. Is there a "good" reason to want to mix these two classes? Sorcerer|Ranger would be quite a bit easier to pull off. 




Well, since I have been able to play her from level 8 to level 12, I'd say this class combo was pulled off rather well.  I just need to figure out a way to get more bonuses to her attack rolls.

Granted, if I went Sorc|Ranger, I could MC Seeker and take the PP that gives a bonus to attack with RBAs and at level 16 would let her crit on a 19-20 with RBAs.  But that's not the direction I went with her and since this is an LFR character, I cannot rebuild her class picks.
Could you use this with witch bolt and would you have to sustain standard for each target?

I'm going to start with negatives to point out where you went "wrong" (IMHO), but please note this is intended constructively.
It's always beneficial to look at the choices you have made, question your reasoning behind them and determine whether it's actually working as intended. And always double check the maths.


Your AC at Lvl 12 isn't 26, it's 24, unless I've missed something. And MAil Armour actually reduces what your AC could be by 1.
Mail Armour - 24 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 6[MAil Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus])
Hide Armour - 25 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 3[Hide Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])
Cloth Armour- 22 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 0[Cloth Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])


Why the Armour feats? Aren't you a backliner? Why the need for the extra AC? Aren't your party able to keep the monsters out of the back line, or does your DM favour monsters with ranged attacks? Aren't all your Ranger Daily and Encounter powers for protecting/clearing your back line when threatened? How often does your AC get hit?
Have you taken the Ranger Armour Proficiency and Mail Armour Proficiency soley to allow you to use Tactican's Armour? If so, I don't think it's worth it.
You've spent two feats to gain a +2 to AC and a rather mediocre effect, and picked up a -1 movement and skill check for the trouble.
You could spend one feat, if you would like that +3 AC, but personally, unless AC is a major problem for you, I wouldn't even bother with that given your role.
I'd rather spend it on other feats that give you a hit bonus (granted these would have to be things like Distant Advantage or Hidden Sniper), or other Hybrid Class Features more suited to your role.


On the subject of feats... Why have you taken Staff as your implement for Versatile Expertise over the Shortbow?
I'm assuming that you aren't already adding the +1 for versatile expertise when casting through the bow as the feat implement bonus only applies to the staff as chosen.
If you chose bow for both weapon and implement you get the bonus with both weapon and implement attacks through the bow.


So far it seems you've squandered your resources, and this squandering is compounded by your ability allocation at Lvl 4 or 8.
Why have you added to WIS? Why not DEX which would bump you to 18 and so +4 rather than +3?


Seems like you could squeeze a +2 to hit with minor changes to little mistakes.
Swap implement expertise from staff to bow, and ask you DM if they would accept you moving the point you added to WIS at 4 or 8 over to DEX.


Major changes, like seriouly considering what you're getting out of those Armour Proficiency feats, gives even more potential. I get the impression you have something in mind with the Tactcian's Armour property, but can't really see any benefit that outweighs the negatives. Is it really working for you?


P.S.
Do you realise you have two head slot magic items?


Also, it's worth thinking about the rest of the party. What are their roles? How effective are they at them? Where does my character fit in to the party and what benefits do I bring?
Are you trying to spread yourself to thin to the point where you're not actually effective? If your party has a particular area covered, it's ok to be lacking in that area, but not being able to hit just makes you into walking hit points.

Luckily in LFR you can  retrain everything but Race and Class. Your FORT stinks and even in LFR that's tough once you play a decent amount at Paragon Tier.  As it is, you've made a character similar to a by the book bladesinger only less versatile.

Heck, I'd almost be tempted to switch DEX to STR, multiclass Swordmage (for imp) and pray you get with a good leader and defender. You'd at least be more versatile and get a +3 proficiency weapon. If your attack stats are INT/DEX (BAD idea in the first place) and one is behind because you're a Human why did you put one stat bump in to WIS? You can swap stats around, do it.



Your AC at Lvl 12 isn't 26, it's 24, unless I've missed something. And MAil Armour actually reduces what your AC could be by 1.
Mail Armour - 24 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 6[MAil Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus])
Hide Armour - 25 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 3[Hide Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])
Cloth Armour- 22 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 0[Cloth Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])


Why the Armour feats? Aren't you a backliner? Why the need for the extra AC? Aren't your party able to keep the monsters out of the back line, or does your DM favour monsters with ranged attacks? Aren't all your Ranger Daily and Encounter powers for protecting/clearing your back line when threatened? How often does your AC get hit?
Have you taken the Ranger Armour Proficiency and Mail Armour Proficiency soley to allow you to use Tactican's Armour? If so, I don't think it's worth it.
You've spent two feats to gain a +2 to AC and a rather mediocre effect, and picked up a -1 movement and skill check for the trouble.
You could spend one feat, if you would like that +3 AC, but personally, unless AC is a major problem for you, I wouldn't even bother with that given your role.




IIRC, Ring Mail is a +3AC, -1 check, no move penalty mail that counts as light armor. I am assuming the OP took it because it's the only way to get the Tactician's enchant on light armor, which in this case would add +1 damage to all INT attacks. Whether or not the feat cost to get this effect is worth it is a different matter, I suppose.



Your AC at Lvl 12 isn't 26, it's 24, unless I've missed something. And MAil Armour actually reduces what your AC could be by 1.
Mail Armour - 24 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 6[MAil Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus])
Hide Armour - 25 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 3[Hide Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])
Cloth Armour- 22 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 0[Cloth Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])


Why the Armour feats? Aren't you a backliner? Why the need for the extra AC? Aren't your party able to keep the monsters out of the back line, or does your DM favour monsters with ranged attacks? Aren't all your Ranger Daily and Encounter powers for protecting/clearing your back line when threatened? How often does your AC get hit?
Have you taken the Ranger Armour Proficiency and Mail Armour Proficiency soley to allow you to use Tactican's Armour? If so, I don't think it's worth it.
You've spent two feats to gain a +2 to AC and a rather mediocre effect, and picked up a -1 movement and skill check for the trouble.
You could spend one feat, if you would like that +3 AC, but personally, unless AC is a major problem for you, I wouldn't even bother with that given your role.




IIRC, Ring Mail is a +3AC, -1 check, no move penalty mail that counts as light armor. I am assuming the OP took it because it's the only way to get the Tactician's enchant on light armor, which in this case would add +1 damage to all INT attacks. Whether or not the feat cost to get this effect is worth it is a different matter, I suppose.




I did not know that. So, same as Hide with Mail type then?
Certainly doesn't seem as "costly" for the enchantment now, but still not sure it's worth it 
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Your AC at Lvl 12 isn't 26, it's 24, unless I've missed something. And MAil Armour actually reduces what your AC could be by 1.
Mail Armour - 24 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 6[MAil Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus])
Hide Armour - 25 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 3[Hide Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])
Cloth Armour- 22 = (10 + 6[1/2 level] + 0[Cloth Armour] + 2 [Magic Armour bonus] + 4 [INT mod])


Why the Armour feats? Aren't you a backliner? Why the need for the extra AC? Aren't your party able to keep the monsters out of the back line, or does your DM favour monsters with ranged attacks? Aren't all your Ranger Daily and Encounter powers for protecting/clearing your back line when threatened? How often does your AC get hit?
Have you taken the Ranger Armour Proficiency and Mail Armour Proficiency soley to allow you to use Tactican's Armour? If so, I don't think it's worth it.
You've spent two feats to gain a +2 to AC and a rather mediocre effect, and picked up a -1 movement and skill check for the trouble.
You could spend one feat, if you would like that +3 AC, but personally, unless AC is a major problem for you, I wouldn't even bother with that given your role.




IIRC, Ring Mail is a +3AC, -1 check, no move penalty mail that counts as light armor. I am assuming the OP took it because it's the only way to get the Tactician's enchant on light armor, which in this case would add +1 damage to all INT attacks. Whether or not the feat cost to get this effect is worth it is a different matter, I suppose.




I did not know that. So, same as Hide with Mail type then?
Certainly doesn't seem as "costly" for the enchantment now, but still not sure it's worth it 

Yeah, ringmail has the same stats as hide, but counts as chainmail for enchants (and has something minor like 2 or 4 points off the first time you eat a crit in an encounter).  It's useful for picking up stuff like Tactician's or Eladrin Armor without actually wearing heavy armor, but that's about it.

Also, pretty sure Versatile Expertise functions for weaplements even if that's not what you chose as the implement, since it says "attack rolls when using a weapon of the chosen group," and you're still using the weapon even if you aren't using it AS a weapon (at least in the slashy/stabby/smashy/shooty sense).
Yes VE works with implement powers.  Yes this would be better as a ranger|sorc, though still not a top tier build at all (take demonskin adept as your PP).

Also, pretty sure Versatile Expertise functions for weaplements even if that's not what you chose as the implement, since it says "attack rolls when using a weapon of the chosen group," and you're still using the weapon even if you aren't using it AS a weapon (at least in the slashy/stabby/smashy/shooty sense).



Are you sure?
My group reads it as: bonus to weapon [a] for weapon attacks  & bonus to implement [b] for implement attacks

I interpret the feat to prevent weapon casters who have both weapon and implement attacks from having to take two feats to get bonus to each, keeping their to hits on par with imp solo/weapon solo, rather than a way to buy multiple feats for the price of one.
Take for example a build using weapliment [a] and weapliment [b]. Under your interpretation VE effectively becomes 4 feats
1.Weapon Expertise [a]
2.Implement Expertise [a]
3.Weapon Expertise [b]
4.Implement Expertise [b]
That's pretty broken in my eyes. 

Also, pretty sure Versatile Expertise functions for weaplements even if that's not what you chose as the implement, since it says "attack rolls when using a weapon of the chosen group," and you're still using the weapon even if you aren't using it AS a weapon (at least in the slashy/stabby/smashy/shooty sense).



Are you sure?
My group reads it as: bonus to weapon [a] for weapon attacks  & bonus to implement [b] for implement attacks

I interpret the feat to prevent weapon casters who have both weapon and implement attacks from having to take two feats to get bonus to each, keeping their to hits on par with imp solo/weapon solo, rather than a way to buy multiple feats for the price of one.
Take for example a build using weapliment [a] and weapliment [b]. Under your interpretation VE effectively becomes 4 feats
1.Weapon Expertise [a]
2.Implement Expertise [a]
3.Weapon Expertise [b]
4.Implement Expertise [b]
That's pretty broken in my eyes. 

Just for comparison:

Tome Expertise
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to implement attack rolls that you make with a tome. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
    In addition, enemies adjacent to your conjurations or summoned creatures grant combat advantage. An enemy that is immune to fear is immune to this effect.


Light Blade Expertise
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to weapon attack rolls that you make with a light blade. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to the damage rolls of weapon attacks that you make with a light blade against a creature granting combat advantage to you. Both of these bonuses increase to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

Versatile Expertise
Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose a weapon group and an implement type. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls both when using a weapon from the chosen group and when using an implement of the chosen type. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, choose a different weapon group and a different implement type.



Reasonably sure that by RAW all that matters for VE is that you're making an attack roll with an appropriate weapon or implement.  If that's not how your group handles it, then that's how your group handles it.  I think it applying to all attack rolls made with the appropriate weapons/implement is comparable to the other PHB3 and later expertise feats' extra effects.
As I stated previously, my original intent with this build was to be able to spam magic missile with auto-damage.  I was going to get a frost shortbow and use Twin Strike every other round to get vuln 5 cold onto a bad guy and have arcane admixture cold on magic missile, so I could take advantage of that cold vulnerability.

I have taken ranger powers which grant off-turn attacks, in the hopes that I would continue to take advantage of the cold vulnerability.

Versatile Expertise lets you pick a weapon group and an implement type and you get a scaling feat bonus to attack rolls with weapons in that weapon group and with those types of implements.  This bonus applies to weapon attacks or implement attacks.  So, with Versatile Expertise (Bow) and Versatile Expertise (Staff) I get a bonus to attack rolls with any bow (Shortbow is a bow) and with any Staff.

At any rate, when she hit paragon, I took advantage of War Wizard of Cormyr in order to have a different power as a ranged basic attack so that the other guys in my group would stop rolling their eyes at me when I declared that that group of bad guys just all took 10 damage and the one guy took 10 more damage.  (I honestly don't understand why people have a problem with stuff like that but those same people will have builds which can push/slide a target 20 squares off of the battlefield...) 
I don't know what to say, except the sum of the parts certainly do not seem better than any ..well....


any other combination I can think of to deal ranged damage .
Just a thought, but if you're using a frost shortbow as your implement, I don't think you need to admix cold just to use Permafrost.
As I stated previously, my original intent with this build was to be able to spam magic missile with auto-damage.
 


What kind of damage exactly were you dealing with MM? After looking at that sad little number, do you realize why it was a bad idea?
Minion Killing must be a critical job in his party O_O
Minion Killing must be a critical job in his party O_O

Hey, minions can get pretty annoying.

As I stated previously, my original intent with this build was to be able to spam magic missile with auto-damage.  I was going to get a frost shortbow and use Twin Strike every other round to get vuln 5 cold onto a bad guy and have arcane admixture cold on magic missile, so I could take advantage of that cold vulnerability.

I have taken ranger powers which grant off-turn attacks, in the hopes that I would continue to take advantage of the cold vulnerability.

Versatile Expertise lets you pick a weapon group and an implement type and you get a scaling feat bonus to attack rolls with weapons in that weapon group and with those types of implements.  This bonus applies to weapon attacks or implement attacks.  So, with Versatile Expertise (Bow) and Versatile Expertise (Staff) I get a bonus to attack rolls with any bow (Shortbow is a bow) and with any Staff.

At any rate, when she hit paragon, I took advantage of War Wizard of Cormyr in order to have a different power as a ranged basic attack so that the other guys in my group would stop rolling their eyes at me when I declared that that group of bad guys just all took 10 damage and the one guy took 10 more damage.  (I honestly don't understand why people have a problem with stuff like that but those same people will have builds which can push/slide a target 20 squares off of the battlefield...) 



When the Pacifist Cleric is laughing at your damage output you may see the error in Magic Missile spamming. Your less-than-accurate Twin Strike will likely do more damage.

As for their powers, they're actually DOING something as well as (possibly paltry even) damage. You made a character that's "both" a striker and a controller and does neither at all. It's not like everyone in LFR expects super optimized characters, and it's hard to make a character in 4E that truly sucks, but this comes close. Look at it this way, your full damage on Magic Missile WITH the vulnerability is about the same as the static modifier on most characters' attacks, and doesn't offer any actual control outside of whacking the occasional minion.

In other words, they weren't rolling their eyes because you were spamming a power, they were rolling their eyes because you were spamming a power that sucks and doesn't do either of the jobs your classes are designed for at all.

Or look at it another way, when encounter scaling, you're responsible for added monster(s) at the table. If you're a net loss in encounter balancing then you have a direct, negative effect on everyone else's fun. Again, you don't need to be super optimized or anything, but not being an anchor should be the goal. Sorry to sound harsh.
Minion Killing must be a critical job in his party O_O

Hey, minions can get pretty annoying.




A miniøn bit my sister
But they can mix concrete and sign complicated insurance forms.
As I stated previously, my original intent with this build was to be able to spam magic missile with auto-damage.  I was going to get a frost shortbow and use Twin Strike every other round to get vuln 5 cold onto a bad guy and have arcane admixture cold on magic missile, so I could take advantage of that cold vulnerability.

I have taken ranger powers which grant off-turn attacks, in the hopes that I would continue to take advantage of the cold vulnerability.

Versatile Expertise lets you pick a weapon group and an implement type and you get a scaling feat bonus to attack rolls with weapons in that weapon group and with those types of implements.  This bonus applies to weapon attacks or implement attacks.  So, with Versatile Expertise (Bow) and Versatile Expertise (Staff) I get a bonus to attack rolls with any bow (Shortbow is a bow) and with any Staff.

At any rate, when she hit paragon, I took advantage of War Wizard of Cormyr in order to have a different power as a ranged basic attack so that the other guys in my group would stop rolling their eyes at me when I declared that that group of bad guys just all took 10 damage and the one guy took 10 more damage.  (I honestly don't understand why people have a problem with stuff like that but those same people will have builds which can push/slide a target 20 squares off of the battlefield...) 



When the Pacifist Cleric is laughing at your damage output you may see the error in Magic Missile spamming. Your less-than-accurate Twin Strike will likely do more damage.

As for their powers, they're actually DOING something as well as (possibly paltry even) damage. You made a character that's "both" a striker and a controller and does neither at all. It's not like everyone in LFR expects super optimized characters, and it's hard to make a character in 4E that truly sucks, but this comes close. Look at it this way, your full damage on Magic Missile WITH the vulnerability is about the same as the static modifier on most characters' attacks, and doesn't offer any actual control outside of whacking the occasional minion.

In other words, they weren't rolling their eyes because you were spamming a power, they were rolling their eyes because you were spamming a power that sucks and doesn't do either of the jobs your classes are designed for at all.

Or look at it another way, when encounter scaling, you're responsible for added monster(s) at the table. If you're a net loss in encounter balancing then you have a direct, negative effect on everyone else's fun. Again, you don't need to be super optimized or anything, but not being an anchor should be the goal. Sorry to sound harsh.



+1. I think one of the problems that your build is having right now is that you don't have the expected items that an organically leveled character in LFR might have. So you're comparing what you might do as a Wizard to your build, and it doesn't look that bad. But if you had all the various things that make a Wizard tick going for you, then it wouldn't look particularly good.

10 hp of damage to a burst is the kind of damage where some 2nd level characters might easily expect that kind of damage output from a Wizard at-will(20 Int+1d6+2 damage from somewhere else...) - and that damage goes up...
Minion Killing must be a critical job in his party O_O

Hey, minions can get pretty annoying.




A miniøn bit my sister

Was she carving her name on it with the sharp end of an Interplak toothbrush?

Minion Killing must be a critical job in his party O_O

Hey, minions can get pretty annoying.




A miniøn bit my sister

Was she carving her name on it with the sharp end of an Interplak toothbrush?




Yes, it was given to her by svendj.
Protip-when an enchanter mage can outdamage you, something has gone horribly wrong.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Protip-when an enchanter mage can outdamage you, something has gone horribly wrong.


This needs to be sigged by someone.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Protip-when an enchanter mage can outdamage you, something has gone horribly wrong.


This needs to be sigged by someone.



you know you are playing d&d wrong when.......
Why yes, yes I do.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Under your interpretation VE effectively becomes 4 feats
1.Weapon Expertise [a]
2.Implement Expertise [a]
3.Weapon Expertise [b]
4.Implement Expertise [b]
That's pretty broken in my eyes. 

Can you think of a single build this would actually be broken for? Because I can't. In fact, just about everyone here interprets VE as you list here and still the only time it's used is when it's some weapliment build that has no other expertise option. It's not broken. It's not even good relative to most expertise feats.

Maybe something like this:

Show
 ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gumba, level 12 Human, Wizard/Ranger, Simbarch of Aglarond Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Armor Proficiency Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Thay (Thay Benefit) Theme: Order Adept  
FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 20, CON 11, DEX 13, INT 20, WIS 12, CHA 9  
STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 17, CON 10, DEX 12, INT 15, WIS 11, CHA 8    
AC: 26 Fort: 25 Ref: 24 Will: 23 HP: 75 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 18  
TRAINED SKILLS Arcana +20, Athletics +15, History +16, Insight +12, Perception +12, Religion +16  
UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +6, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +5, Heal +7, Intimidate +5, Nature +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6  
POWERS
Order Adept Attack: Argent Rain
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Wizard Utility: Disrupt Undead Wizard Utility: Suggestion Wizard Utility: Spook Wizard Utility: Chameleon's Mask
Hunter's Quarry  Power: Hunter's Quarry
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike Wizard Attack 1: Winged Horde Wizard Attack 
Simbarch of Aglarond Attack 11: Silver Fire Simbarch of Aglarond Utility 12: Synostodweomer  

FEATS Level 1: War Wizard's Expertise Level 1: Blade Initiate Level 2: Hybrid Talent Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Ring Mail Level 8: Improved Defenses Level 10: Prime Strike Level 11: Action Surge Level 11: Two-Weapon Fighting Level 12: Weapon Focus (Light blade)  
ITEMS Paired Rapier +3 x1 Tactician's Ring Mail +2 x2 Medallion of the Mind +3 Circlet of Arkhosia (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======


When you get to level 14, boost INT in the point buy back up one, strength down one, and drop the extra point in to DEX or CON until 18. Use the retraining to your advantage, otherwise do it now and raise INT/STR every time and deal w/ STR being one behind. The Paragon Path gives you two extra surges (because you're fragile and six may not be enough) and Silver Fire to pick out one enemy to have extra damage on for the encounter, which helps against sacks/brutes amd the damage boost reads ALL attacks, so when big ugly's still up while you exhaust all your minor and off-turn attacks you get the bonus there too. It's like getting a static mod on Twin Strike.

It's still not good (it's a terrible hybrid), but good enough to contribute in LFR,  it's versatile and you have lots of ways to help in skill challenges w/ six trained skills, and arcana boost and cantrips to substitute for three others. You can do decent damage and/or control. You'll need to pick up the paired swords "ASAP" but luckily they're a common item. The circlet you'll have to wait on or play a mod/BI with the better bundle choice. Sell the Goggles and retrain the Ring Mail feat at 13 (unless you just hit 12 and can do it now), they were a bad choices when item slots were already prescious but oh well. You're to the point where Superior Armor is available in light armors.

For the Encounter you have Swordmage Warding up, once you get adjacent to the enemy (and if the defender keeps him there)  you can minor to double the weapon, Twin Strike, and Minor back to single to keep the +3 warding.
I like your doggedness in the build Gunthar. The OP would probably be lots better off with some other hybrid, or anywhere from a straight up sorcerer to a Conlock, if control + splash damage was the goal.


To the OP I would recommend taking an hour, build a few options that could fit the same basic frame you have your mind set on, and see how they fare. Pretty sure many other classes and hybrid do better at pretty much the same thing.


Oh, and in my opinion magic missile should be banned as a horrible waste of a minor action.     
Oh, and in my opinion magic missile should be banned as a horrible waste of an minor action.     





A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
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