Five Colour Deck OP?

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I was wondering if anyone thought the five colour deck was OP.

I can get some luck with the Defenders and Rogues Gallery decks, but it is just if the stars align.

The five colour deck has so much mass creature destruction and cards to recycle that it is hands down the best deck.

I know that I am going to get flamed for this post, but that's okay.  I'm more interested in what the members with brains think.

Thank you for all comments.

Oh, I would also appreciate any tips that you all might have. 

OP versus most creature based decks.... perhaps.
There are builds for a few decks in the game that can win versus it very consistently though, so it doesn't totally kill variety.

Fast Dream puppets does very well; so does Born of Flame ; Goblins can use haste to its advantage; MS can steal fatties with haste and has lots of draw and direct damage ; Crosswinds can go infinite if MM can't get any early pressure to stick ; Obedient dead can outpace it with a nantuko, outlast it thanks to stellar removal and finish with a tutored corrupt... Grinning Malice is vicious against it if it gets a fast start because of the massive damage the rats and ogres can cause. Sepuclhral Strength has sweepers and instant removal aplenty, even for protected creatures, and has potentially 7 threatening regenerating creatures which are a real pain for MM...

So no, not totally OP, just very strong deck.
There is the rather big thread with funny name about it)
There is the rather big thread with funny name about it)



I really wouldn't say this is the same thing.

The black deck has some good single creature destruction, but this five colour deck has things like Avalanche and Maelstrom Storm that can wipe out multiple monsters and a green card that lets you get five cards back from the graveyard, which is easy after all the Rampant Growths and other mana augmenters.  

If there is going to be so much mass destruction and quick mana, it seems severly OP to be able to get them back.

Basically, if the deck can survive six turns, and this is almost gaurantied after the opponent bulds up 3-5 creatures and mass destruction rewards you.

BTW, do any of you MtG guys that played in the 90's think that the colours have kind of lost their meanings now?  I see green doing temporal and chronal things.  I see red Tim's (not too much a stretch).  I see red creature control.  What up wit dat? 
ramping up mana and then dropping stuff that costs 8+ mana vs opponent still playing 4-5cost cards will seem like the scale is tipping.

But Murder or Innocent Blood still topple big guys for nothing.

Any deck that can destroy a land or 2, has a very good chance of completely stopping MM in its tracks. It is very often run with few creatures - a few well placed counterspells can disrupt the deck for a long time.

Mill completely wipes the floor with it.

And no, I don't find the colors have lost their meaning. You dont see alot of tapping from black, no enchantment or artifact removal. Green doesn't take extra turns or destroys creatures. Red neither, if you discount Final Fortune. Red doesn't gain life.

The fact that they have mixed it up a little bit for variety - well, game has been developing for nearly 20 years.
ramping up mana and then dropping stuff that costs 8+ mana vs opponent still playing 4-5cost cards will seem like the scale is tipping.

But Murder or Innocent Blood still topple big guys for nothing.

Any deck that can destroy a land or 2, has a very good chance of completely stopping MM in its tracks. It is very often run with few creatures - a few well placed counterspells can disrupt the deck for a long time.

Mill completely wipes the floor with it.

And no, I don't find the colors have lost their meaning. You dont see alot of tapping from black, no enchantment or artifact removal. Green doesn't take extra turns or destroys creatures. Red neither, if you discount Final Fortune. Red doesn't gain life.

The fact that they have mixed it up a little bit for variety - well, game has been developing for nearly 20 years.



I didn't say that the colours completely lost meaning.  

I can even remember when the colours did things out of character, but it was for a price.

What I am saying is that a lot of the better cards seem to be out of character with no extra cost. 
I think it is not that OP anymore as people learnt to play against it. Still pain in the bottom, but it is digestable. I just love playing MS against MM, last game he was teamed up with ajani and both teams ended up with max life in the end of the game; MM decked itself haha. But yeah, MM is still the deck I dislike the most, though winning against it is a special kind of victory :D

As for the colors, yeah these got mixed up a lot but still retain their identity. Creature control for red fits perfectly, I always imagined it as a blind rage (I see RED!!) taking over a creature causing it to attack its comrades. I am also guilty of loving red. 
Mana Mastery is definitely overpowered in 2-headed giant. It's unbelievably stupid to add a 10/10 creature with protection from everything, to a closed environment like duels. And it's not like you have to draw it from a 60 card deck, you can use additional spells to fetch it from your library.

 It's like they do it on purpose everytime with the last DLC, add a deck that breaks the game, so we have to buy the next game.

There's 3 ways to not lose to that card:
1) win quick (this works in 1on1, but with 2hg it's most likely not gonna happen, especially when mana mastery players like to team up with decks with lots of removal or life gain.
2) counter it, I believe 3 decks have counter spells?
3) mass removal, is mana mastery the only deck that has destroy all creatures?

And it's not like the other creatures are any easier to deal with. They completely dropped the ball with this one IMO. And it doesn't help that I can't get a 2hg game where neither of my opponents are playing this deck.
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You pay to much attention to Progenitus. Granded it is a 10/10 with pro but its not that bad. I am afraid much more of Magister Sphinx entering the battlefield. If you playing against MM so often just alter few of your decks especially against it. 
Btw, most of the time MM player just plays with himself casting occasional vindicate/day of judgement. They just look sad and pathetic.
4) Destroy a land he has only 2 copies of
5) Exile it from his hand/deck
This deck has 6 match ups which aren't in its favor.
Others are even or MM has the advantage.
Basically I agree, but most decks are shutted down even without Progenitus - Empyrial Archangel is more then enough.
There are many decks that can deal 8 damage
There are at least 3 decks (DP, GM, BoF) that virtually can not lose to MM if you have the right build and in the case of DP and BoF the build that is good against MM is the best one against the general field anyway (speed mill for DP, creature light burn heavy for BoF).   GM requires a little tweaking to be optimal against MM that makes it a little less strong against the field but any version of it is still good against MM.    There are a number of decks that go at least 50/50 with MM and a number that get crushed by it.     Doesn't seem that broken to me, it is a solid deck for sure but it certainly isn't even the best overall deck in 1v1, not with as many auto losses as it has.    Goblins doesn't have any match ups that are even as close to unwinnable as MM vs the 3 decks I listed.
This deck has 6 match ups which aren't in its favor.
Others are even or MM has the advantage.


Assuming this is true, isn't this the case with every deck (save perhaps one or two)?

Assuming that's true then no, Mana Mastery is not overpowered.
There are many decks that can deal 8 damage



Theoretically - yes. And there are not so nuch actual situations, when it's actually possible (considering shroud of mentioned archangel and amount of removal in MM)
Well see, the issue is that the decks that are good against MM are mostly decks that are terrible against the other top decks. So it creates a situation where you can pilot something good against GG/SS/et cetera, or something good against MM, but not both. You have to make *choices* and you can't just play one deck that steamrolls everyone, and people *hate* choices and losing.

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.


Fast Dream puppets does very well; so does Born of Flame.



I have a decent W/L ratio with BoF vs MM, but the moment the following guy drops, I just concede:



Well see, the issue is that the decks that are good against MM are mostly decks that are terrible against the other top decks. So it creates a situation where you can pilot something good against GG/SS/et cetera, or something good against MM, but not both. You have to make *choices* and you can't just play one deck that steamrolls everyone, and people *hate* choices and losing.



BF and GM both slaughter MM and do well against most of the other top decks though.  MS slaughters MM and does fairly well against the others, though not as well as BF and GM do.  OD/SS can both pretty consistently win against every deck, including MM (regardless of how late the game goes).  I don't really see it as a forced choice for anything other than DP.

MM is very imbalanced against a range of decks, but the ones that have very little chance against it are mostly bottom tier decks - like SaS and RG. 
Thanks.  You folks are giving great advice.

I am glad I posted! 
This deck has 6 match ups which aren't in its favor.
Others are even or MM has the advantage.


Assuming this is true, isn't this the case with every deck (save perhaps one or two)?

Assuming that's true then no, Mana Mastery is not overpowered.



That's exactly how I see it. The majority of decks doesn't have more horrible matchups than MM. The main problem is that MM's bad matchups are against unpopular decks, like DP or MS and mainly creatureless builds, which people tend to avoid.

I kinda hate that this deck is all I ever play against atm, but I love it's effect on the overall balance.
This deck has 6 match ups which aren't in its favor.
Others are even or MM has the advantage.


Assuming this is true, isn't this the case with every deck (save perhaps one or two)?

Assuming that's true then no, Mana Mastery is not overpowered.



That's exactly how I see it. The majority of decks doesn't have more horrible matchups than MM. The main problem is that MM's bad matchups are against unpopular decks, like DP or MS and mainly creatureless builds, which people tend to avoid.

I kinda hate that this deck is all I ever play against atm, but I love it's effect on the overall balance.



When did MS become a bad matchup for MM?

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

the creature-light / direct damage version of MS owns MM.  Maybe more than BoF does.
The deck seems OP when you're playing against the AI to unlock cards, and when you don't know how to play against it, mostly cos it has 10x the rares of every other deck. 

Just don't overextend - you can normally play just one 2 drop, and they sit there with DoJs, Deeds etc in hand, loathe to use their removal on something so crappy. Also, counter allied strategies.
ramping up mana and then dropping stuff that costs 8+ mana vs opponent still playing 4-5cost cards will seem like the scale is tipping.

But Murder or Innocent Blood still topple big guys for nothing.

Any deck that can destroy a land or 2, has a very good chance of completely stopping MM in its tracks. It is very often run with few creatures - a few well placed counterspells can disrupt the deck for a long time.

Mill completely wipes the floor with it.

And no, I don't find the colors have lost their meaning. You dont see alot of tapping from black, no enchantment or artifact removal. Green doesn't take extra turns or destroys creatures. Red neither, if you discount Final Fortune. Red doesn't gain life.

The fact that they have mixed it up a little bit for variety - well, game has been developing for nearly 20 years.



I didn't say that the colours completely lost meaning.  

I can even remember when the colours did things out of character, but it was for a price.

What I am saying is that a lot of the better cards seem to be out of character with no extra cost. 




I'm just curious, but are you thinking of any cards in particular that break their theme with no drawbacks?

 

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Associate Community Manager

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You guys should play more multiple player games, this deck is no problem 1 to 1, but when you're playing free-for-all 3-4 player or 2hg, this deck always wins if gets it's land cards.

If you have video material defeating this deck in such games, I would love to see it :/
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I don't see it as unbeatable in 2hg at all.  Maybe I'm only playing against bad players or something, but even if they get there land down it seems they have few ways to actually win and the game just takes a looong time.  

Plus getting there land down is often times a big (if) in itself. A single chaos warp or mana leak on a cultivate or slime or befoul, vindicate, wrecking ball can completly hose this deck.  And those cards have always been fairly common sights in 2hg on psn...Always fun with red and black to kill one guys land and make the other guy discard

It does seem to make the less popular 2hg decks seem weaker though.  Directly countering odric garrucks boros selsna and azorius main game plan...where you kinda feel like you lost at the selection screen with those dudes.  If you don't over extend your probably not gonna kill him fast enough (and give him time to draw the DoJ) and if you do well, all your cards probably gonna hit the graveyard...
Maybe you're just that good and I suck, or the luck has been on your and my opponents side.

We've played about 7-8 two headed giant games in the past two days with my friend, whose been playing paper magic from pratically the beginning. And we've faced Mana Mastery on atleast 6 of those matches, where in every one of them he always got his land cards and eventually hydra out or other threat we couldn't deal with. We came close of winning few times but eventually we always lost. I also blame the other deck, usually CL (lifegain) or OD (removal), that dragged the game to those later rounds.
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I guess in 2HG it depends on your decks, just as much as in 1v1. The less you rely on creatures, the better.
I think it is the most powerful deck, yes. But OP? Nah. Plenty of decks can still beat it. If 2014's decks look like this, it will be way more amazing. The big problem is BR, RG, AoW, and to some extent, GP are underpowered. They need the same attention to detail they paid to the original decks paid to the DLC.  
Yes it's overpower because at any give time you can axe murder everything on board.
I'm not saying I beat it everytimecause lord knows I have hundreds. (thousands?) of 2hg losses.  I'm just saying its not unbeatable.  Strong in 2hg? yea absolutly.   Stronger than the rest of the most popular decks? I don't think so.

Possible to build a very specific strategy with certain specific decks? Like all burn with chandra or izzet or just full kill with jace or something yea.. but those are high level people that cut there decks together with a strong theme in mind.

Most people set there decks how they damn well please and aint gonna listen to me on what to cut.  In general the average cut of this deck doesn't seem to dominate any more then your average talrand or liliana already did. in 2hg that is
OP?  This deck has blue in it!  If anything, this deck got shafted.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

ramping up mana and then dropping stuff that costs 8+ mana vs opponent still playing 4-5cost cards will seem like the scale is tipping.

But Murder or Innocent Blood still topple big guys for nothing.

Any deck that can destroy a land or 2, has a very good chance of completely stopping MM in its tracks. It is very often run with few creatures - a few well placed counterspells can disrupt the deck for a long time.

Mill completely wipes the floor with it.

And no, I don't find the colors have lost their meaning. You dont see alot of tapping from black, no enchantment or artifact removal. Green doesn't take extra turns or destroys creatures. Red neither, if you discount Final Fortune. Red doesn't gain life.

The fact that they have mixed it up a little bit for variety - well, game has been developing for nearly 20 years.



I didn't say that the colours completely lost meaning.  

I can even remember when the colours did things out of character, but it was for a price.

What I am saying is that a lot of the better cards seem to be out of character with no extra cost. 




I'm just curious, but are you thinking of any cards in particular that break their theme with no drawbacks?

 

One of the cards that comes to mind is the green creature that bounces other creatures back to your hand.  I don't know the name, but chronal and rebound effects are usually blue.

Act of Treason not only fullfills what Ray of Command does but for one mana cheaper.  I understand that it is a sorcery and loses surprise, but that one mana cheapness is the same compensation I would expect if it was a blue card sacrificing cost for lack of surprise.

The other examples escape me right now, but I remeber seeing this happen enough for it to be impressionable to me. 
I still think that it is OP.

I have played that deck with quite a few and with all the mass creature destruction, land acquisition, awesome creature abilities, and card regeneration, it really cannot be beat consistently. 

I mean, sure, you can get lucky, but it pwns.

For all of you that do not think it is, try not playing with that deck for a day and tell me how you think you did in comparision to when you are not using it, because I have this sneaking suspicion that most of you saying it isn't OP are using that deck mainly now, and I wonder why.  LOL

BTW, this is not a cue for people to reply saying they don't use it and they still think it's OP.  I just want you folks that think it is not OP to play for a day or two without using that deck and tell me if they are losing or winning more than when they use it. 
I have not played with the deck online more than a couple of times but I play against it all the time and have played every deck against it.  It is very OP in some matches and you won't win without considerable luck with:
RG, SaS, PK, ED, PI, CL, CM, AS

It can be beaten without too much luck with:
GG, AoW, AW, GP, CW, BR, SS

It is hard to lose to it with:
DP, MS, BoF, GM, OD

So I think it's an average deck, but it's a strange case, because it murders slightly over a third of the field, so decisively that if you're playing one of those decks you have virtually no shot at winning.  I do think it should have been balanced a little bit differently - removing All Sun's Dawn and 1 Allied Strategies, for example, could have made a big difference in balance without radically altering the deck's power.
I still think that it is OP.

I have played that deck with quite a few and with all the mass creature destruction, land acquisition, awesome creature abilities, and card regeneration, it really cannot be beat consistently



Do you play on ps3? I'd be willing to show you that MM loses to a couple of decks over 50% of the time. The worst being DP with a VERY high win percentage.

I agree with dh50's matchup evaluation. Except OD, which is a little too optimistic for my taste.
One of the cards that comes to mind is the green creature that bounces other creatures back to your hand.  I don't know the name, but chronal and rebound effects are usually blue.


Roaring Primadox.
Returning creatures to your hand as a cost is nothing new for Green. It's actually a drawback that makes the creatures that do it more efficient (4/4 for 3 on an uncommon is a pretty awesome deal). Roaring Primadox is a remake of the 15+ year old Stampeding Wildebeests which was the first card to feature this... feature.

Act of Treason not only fullfills what Ray of Command does but for one mana cheaper.  I understand that it is a sorcery and loses surprise, but that one mana cheapness is the same compensation I would expect if it was a blue card sacrificing cost for lack of surprise.


Blue's thing is taking control of something and keeping it. Ray of Command is the aberration here (and if it wasn't an instant it would be worthless to Blue). There are a TON of Red cards that let you steal your oppoent's creatures until end of turn; Act of Treason, Act of Aggression, Blind with Anger, Bringer of the Red Dawn, Conquering Manticore, Disharmony (I believe this was the first such card, printed almost 20 years ago), Flash Conscription, Grab the Reins, Mark of Mutiny, Mass Mutiny, Skyfire Kirin, Temporary Insanity, Threaten, Traitorous Blood, Unwilling Recruit. Molten Primordial is the latest card that steals creature/s until end of turn to be printed and it's inthe forthcoming set.

tl/dr, Red steals for a turn, Blue steals for keepsies. That's how it's been for almost 20 years now.
The other examples escape me right now, but I remeber seeing this happen enough for it to be impressionable to me. 


Well, when you think of them....
Splatter, your "feature that... feature" comment makes me want to watch some Austin Powers tonight; I actually laughed out loud thinking about it.
Gee guys if there was something like random decks then we would be able to play freely without worrying about whether or not we can get a match in that doesn't have the OP flavor of the month.
Hmm, a creature-stealing deck could be fun for next year..