To use Terramorphic expanse or not in these situations?

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The problem with terramorphic expanse and other similar cards is that after they get you the land card they SHUFFLE your library..

And I hate Shuffling especially in these situations

when you start your hand with like 4 cards lands or something and having terramorphic expanse.. if you didnot use it, the coming cards will be likely creature and spells, not lands, because his basic shuffling of my deck make me drew all these lands, so the probability of drawing another land card will be very low
but when you use terramorphic expense, you shuffle your deck, so the probability of having another land is equal or even more than creature and spells..

So basically i think using terramorphic expanse, when you have lands and need a non land card, is harmfull for you as it will shuffle, and increase back the probability of drawing a land card, while if you dont use it, the probability of drawing a non land card is high, as you already have many lands in your hands, so the coming card is highly probably to be a non land card!!!
Yes this is true, but it all depends on what mana color you need. If you are missing a certain color then is more benfitial to use the land fetch, than to stock up on creature/spells that you cannot cast.
I'm sure someone has the exact numbers somewhere, but the way I think about it is if I grab a land from the deck then obviously the chance of me drawing a land goes down, since you know, math. Don't really see how shuffling the deck changes that, it's not like the lands/non-lands purposely try to stay away from each other. (I guess they can be designed that way, but I doubt it.)

The funny thing about random shuffling (as they say this game has) is that it in now way guarantees you have a better or worse chance of drawing a card based on what you previously drew. The only thing that matters is what is in the deck. By using the expanse, there is now one less land in your deck and your chances of drawing a non-land card have, thus, gone up. It's similar how if you flip a coin and land on heads  3 times in a row, the next chance still has a 50/50 chance of being heads....prior results don't affect current chances.

And before any math freaks geek out on me, it's just an example. 
While we're on the subject of fetch lands - did you know a single Terramorphic Expanse triggers twice for Ob Nixilis, the Fallen?
 if you didnot use it, the coming cards will be likely creature and spells, not lands, because his basic shuffling of my deck make me drew all these lands, so the probability of drawing another land card will be very low
but when you use terramorphic expense, you shuffle your deck, so the probability of having another land is equal or even more than creature and spells..




Does that actually make sense to you?

The problem with terramorphic expanse and other similar cards is that after they get you the land card they SHUFFLE your library..

And I hate Shuffling especially in these situations

when you start your hand with like 4 cards lands or something and having terramorphic expanse.. if you didnot use it, the coming cards will be likely creature and spells, not lands, because his basic shuffling of my deck make me drew all these lands, so the probability of drawing another land card will be very low
but when you use terramorphic expense, you shuffle your deck, so the probability of having another land is equal or even more than creature and spells..

So basically i think using terramorphic expanse, when you have lands and need a non land card, is harmfull for you as it will shuffle, and increase back the probability of drawing a land card, while if you dont use it, the probability of drawing a non land card is high, as you already have many lands in your hands, so the coming card is highly probably to be a non land card!!!



No.

The shuffler is random. Fetching the land will decrease your probability of drawing a land. (by a small margin, which increases as the amount of lands in the deck drops.)

In the nature of random, clusters of lands/non-lands will happen. Random does not mean evenly distributed.

And if the argument is, that you have never experienced this in papermagic, then you just don't shuffle very well. Or your opponent doesn't excersize his right to shuffle your deck. The point of shuffling the deck, is to make sure none of you have any idea where the cards are in the deck. Not if the lands are distributed evenly or enabling you to guesstimate when to fetch a land or not.
Its wierd sometimes when I have just 1 land and 1 terramorphic I do feel like I need to pop it now just to reshuffle or else I will never draw that 3rd land.  Even though I know it would mean there is less land in the library.  Just gotta trust your gut sometimes!!

O yea and turn off browse whole library or whatever just so you don't know if you screwed yourself or not!! 
I don't think that DOTP shuffels,atleast when i sacrificed Yavimaya Elder with Oracle Of Mul Daya on the field there was always the same card at the top of the deck
If OP statement is true, then Extract can have a whole new level of tactical use)
Nobody (apart from the dev team) actually knows how the game shuffles (if it even shuffles) your library. Maybe the cards you draw are randomly chosen the moment you need to draw (use fetch lands as fast as possible for best effect), maybe they are preset from the start of the game and shuffling doesn't matter, maybe they are preset and the shuffling actually does something, maybe the game is programmed to give you x amout of lands and x amount of other cards, etc...

You can't really know. It's also hard to compare human shuffling and game shuffling. Humans usually shuffle a lot more predictable than the game
Last year they the Ent deck had that issue where that one tutor revealed your deck but didn't shuffle, so we know that it doesn't happen AS you draw. And pretty sure they've stated before that it does use a completely random shuffler, just don't remember who said it (just remember it was during DotP 2012)
Nobody (apart from the dev team) actually knows how the game shuffles (if it even shuffles) your library. Maybe the cards you draw are randomly chosen the moment you need to draw (use fetch lands as fast as possible for best effect), maybe they are preset from the start of the game and shuffling doesn't matter, maybe they are preset and the shuffling actually does something, maybe the game is programmed to give you x amout of lands and x amount of other cards, etc...

You can't really know. It's also hard to compare human shuffling and game shuffling. Humans usually shuffle a lot more predictable than the game




No offense but this really doesn't contribute to the discussion, like at all.  Your post pretty much says : "This topic is pointless because we didn't design this game." Sure it's true that we can't know how the designers did it but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Besides having a random shuffler for all decks has to be a lot easier to design then all the other options you listed. The others just sounds like a lot of extra + unnecessary work for a effect the customer isn't looking for/want at all, so it doesn't make much sense for them to use those methods.
Nobody (apart from the dev team) actually knows how the game shuffles (if it even shuffles) your library. Maybe the cards you draw are randomly chosen the moment you need to draw (use fetch lands as fast as possible for best effect), maybe they are preset from the start of the game and shuffling doesn't matter, maybe they are preset and the shuffling actually does something, maybe the game is programmed to give you x amout of lands and x amount of other cards, etc...

You can't really know. It's also hard to compare human shuffling and game shuffling. Humans usually shuffle a lot more predictable than the game




No offense but this really doesn't contribute to the discussion, like at all.  Your post pretty much says : "This topic is pointless because we didn't design this game." Sure it's true that we can't know how the designers did it but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Besides having a random shuffler for all decks has to be a lot easier to design then all the other options you listed. The others just sounds like a lot of extra + unnecessary work for a effect the customer isn't looking for/want at all, so it doesn't make much sense for them to use those methods.



Neither does yours. His post straight-up refutes the original post and gives reasons why what he thinks is wrong, just in more detail than the previous posters.

I'm more interested as to how, logically, anyone can arrive at the conclusion that you will have creatures and spells amongst the top cards of your deck, and using a fetch at the start of a game somehow "ruins" that.

From a programmer's point of view, my educated guess is that the card sorting is always random.  The game doesn't try to give you more, or less lands.  It just randomly arranges the cards, and spits them out in that order.  That's the easiest implementation, and one that any team would chose to minimize introducing potential bugs.  That's the reason you sometimes see opening hands with 6 or even 7 lands, and sometimes you get no lands at all.  That's also the reason why sometimes you wait for many turns before pulling a land card, and sometimes you get 5 in a row.

If someone has time to kill, you could even verify this, by comparing the next card draw when fetching the land, and when NOT fetching the land.  My guess is you'll end up with an identical trend.
Nobody (apart from the dev team) actually knows how the game shuffles (if it even shuffles) your library. Maybe the cards you draw are randomly chosen the moment you need to draw (use fetch lands as fast as possible for best effect), maybe they are preset from the start of the game and shuffling doesn't matter, maybe they are preset and the shuffling actually does something, maybe the game is programmed to give you x amout of lands and x amount of other cards, etc...

You can't really know. It's also hard to compare human shuffling and game shuffling. Humans usually shuffle a lot more predictable than the game




No offense but this really doesn't contribute to the discussion, like at all.  Your post pretty much says : "This topic is pointless because we didn't design this game." Sure it's true that we can't know how the designers did it but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Besides having a random shuffler for all decks has to be a lot easier to design then all the other options you listed. The others just sounds like a lot of extra + unnecessary work for a effect the customer isn't looking for/want at all, so it doesn't make much sense for them to use those methods.



Neither does yours. His post straight-up refutes the original post and gives reasons why what he thinks is wrong, just in more detail than the previous posters.

I'm more interested as to how, logically, anyone can arrive at the conclusion that you will have creatures and spells amongst the top cards of your deck, and using a fetch at the start of a game somehow "ruins" that.




He didn't just give a reason why the OP is wrong, his reason is why EVERYONE is wrong. That reason being: we don't know, we didn't design it so it can be anything. Just because he listed various ways on how it can be anything doesn't mean he put more detail then other posters.

Though I am sorry for going off-topic, there are better things to talk about in this topic and I apologize if I derailed it.
One thing I found strange was against the ai the decks get shuffled funny depending on what difficulty your playing.  I alway unlock against jace and I noticed when I have him on easy and I would use extract all his counters would be literally in the last 7 or 8 spots in his deck.  But pump the difficulty a little and hey look at that his counters are closer to the top!
To put it bluntly, what the OP said is mindlessly wrong.

The remaining deck after your 7-card draw is the remaining deck whether it has 7 less lands or 7 less creatures or whatever. Whether you shuffle it or not, it remains a random grouping of the remaining cards. Your likelihood of drawing anything is strictly due to the remaining cards (and their ratios among themselves). Shuffling will not change that likelihood, PERIOD.
 
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