Mobile Challenge

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Hi
I'm Looking for help understand a feat from lordduskblades fighter guide.
he writes..
Mobile Challenge
(D 378)
- In case you hadn't noticed, this feat combines with Combat Superiority allows Fighters to stuff shift + charge scenarios (which makes you able to actively stop them instead of just being able to punish them), and as such I consider it a very important thing to have.

I think that this is saying you can stop enemy charges ? I'm not getting the benefit of the feat.
If and adjacent enemy slides I can OA hit and stop the move. The bad guy can use his standard to charge and I have no response as I have already used my one OA this turn

What am I missing here and is the feat worth it ?
Flail and shield fighter using slides and prone (footwork lure)

Thanks
Corbie
First of all, why not post this in either the Ask a Simple Question thread or in the Fighter's Handbook? Did it really need it's own thread?

To answer the question, when an adjacent marked enemy tries to shift away from a Fighter, he gets his Combat Challenge attack. The feat allows him to shift after the attack, following his target, and if it attempts to charge he can OA to stop the movement - effectively negating the charge.

Edit - you are missing that Combat Challenge is an Immediate, not Opportunity action.
Hi
I'm Looking for help understand a feat from lordduskblades fighter guide.
he writes..
Mobile Challenge
(D 378)
- In case you hadn't noticed, this feat combines with Combat Superiority allows Fighters to stuff shift + charge scenarios (which makes you able to actively stop them instead of just being able to punish them), and as such I consider it a very important thing to have.

I think that this is saying you can stop enemy charges ? I'm not getting the benefit of the feat.
If and adjacent enemy slides I can OA hit and stop the move. The bad guy can use his standard to charge and I have no response as I have already used my one OA this turn

What am I missing here and is the feat worth it ?
Flail and shield fighter using slides and prone (footwork lure)

Thanks
Corbie

Actually if an adjacent enemy shifts (which is what I believe you mean), you do not get an opportunity attack, you get a combat challenge attack.  While that does constitute punishment for his shifting, he wants he can eat that punishment, shift one square away from you (since combat challenge, unlike your OA, does not stop the movement) and charge any of your allies he'd like.  In the same scenario, Mobile Challenge allows you, after you smack him for shifting with your combat challenge, to shift into the square he vacated a square from which you will still threaten the enemy's new square after he shifts.  Now if he attempts to charge an ally of yours after shifting, he wil have to eat an OA, which will stop the movement in its tracks if you hit.  And that, on top of hitting him twice on his turn, will also negate his turn.

While it's highly rated in the handbook, it's also DM-dependent.  I've played with quite a few DMs and have only very rarely ever seen any of them attempt the shift+charge combo to avoid a fighter's mark.  I'm playing a fighter right now without the feat and haven't missed it, since my DM has never once tried the combo.  But if your DM does do it, it's worth its weight in gold as a deterrent.
Combat Challenge is an interrupt, you do not get to follow him into the square he vacated. You have to completely resolve the Combat Challenge attack and anything that happens as a result of it (like your shift), then the enemy gets to shift where he wants after you are done. You have to guess where he is going.

What it does do is let you follow someone after pushing them with Shield Push. But since they have likely already used their Standard Action to attack, it's not as big a deal, unless you made them miss a minor action melee or short range attack with your push, or if they have the ability to use a ranged minor action power after you cancelled a standard melee.
Combat Challenge is an interrupt, you do not get to follow him into the square he vacated. You have to completely resolve the Combat Challenge attack and anything that happens as a result of it (like your shift), then the enemy gets to shift where he wants after you are done. You have to guess where he is going.

What it does do is let you follow someone after pushing them with Shield Push. But since they have likely already used their Standard Action to attack, it's not as big a deal, unless you made them miss a minor action melee or short range attack with your push, or if they have the ability to use a ranged minor action power after you cancelled a standard melee.

You don't need to shift into the square the enemy was in to remain adjacent to it - shift into a square on either side of where it used to be. I'm pretty sure the enemy can't suddenly decide to shift to a new square when it's action has already started. If it hadn't there would have been nothing to interrupt.
It's an opacity issue. Bob is saying that the DM declares "I'm shifting, do you want to CC me?" not "I'm shifting into square Q13, do you want to CC me?" Basically following the style of "Making an Attack" in which the Move Action Type is declared first, followed by the Destination, so the trigger "An enemy adjacent to you shifts" occurs before destination is declared; the fighter would have to complete their shift (as it's part of the II) prior to the enemy deciding what square to shift into.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
What's the rule cited? Any movement including shifting is leaving a square to enter another. You can't "start leaving" a square without choosing another to enter.  The II isn't going off when you say "I'm going to shift," it's the actual movement.
No idea, I was just explaining his position.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
If following the style of "Making an Attack," I'd figure choosing a destination is equivalent to picking a target. The actual "attack" is leaving the square, which is fixed at the moment of interrupt.
Choose an Action, keeping in mind the rules for its type. That's step 1, and that would be when CC would trigger (adjacent to you and shifts, not "leaves a square adjacent to you by shifting") ... IF those rules applied to movement ... They don't, those are the rules for attacking, and there's absolutely no reason to assume you follow some sort of sequence for any type of activity other than what's listed in the rules. So, yeah, I'm going to stop playing devils advocate just incase some lurker might get convinced by faulty arguments.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I agree that the analogy is not really valid in a RAW sense. The rule I'm using here is the definition of movement itself - leaving a square to enter another. My point is that "I'm shifting" doesn't mean anything because you have to be shifting to somewhere to be shifting.

You're not just shuffling around in your square waiting to see if something will happen. You can't initiate movement without having a destination picked out as per the definition of movement. Retconning movement after you've been interrupted for that movement is just cheating.

And for practical RAI-type purposes, this argument means that things like Mobile Challenge are a decent choice instead of being almost totally useless. You can still only lock down one guy (maybe two in epic if your positioning is perfect), it's contingent on hitting, and it's subject to all kinds of variables like status effects and difficult terrain.
My fighters have always been so packed to the gills with feats i want/need i've really never found a place for it.
You have to guess where he is going.

No.
My fighters have always been so packed to the gills with feats i want/need i've really never found a place for it.



Same here. I didn't miss it much, since most DM's I've played with don't bother with shift + charge.

If you have a DM who loves to shift + charge then either Pinning Challenge (for a two-handed fighter) or Mark of Storm + Polearm Momentum/Flail Expertise is probably a better fix than Mobile Challenge.
Yeah well, it's not like Fighters are famous for having a lot of free feats, it's a harsh choice for most builds, and nearly impossible for others, mostly because they do have a lot of tricks up their sleeve. Brawlers have it tough, and from my experience, so do "hammer time" dwarf battleragers. Boy I was starved.
Still, Mobile Challenge is a great feat, I have no troubles understanding LDB's sky blue for it.
Shifting does not have a target square like an attack does, but I can see Scatterbrained's logic making sense.

However, you definitely have to shift before the triggering shift happens. Your interrupt must be completely resolved before the triggering action, so you cannot fill a vacated square (as no square has been vacated yet)
If you are adding a target square to shifts, though, you are also giving fighters the ability to completely cancel shifts with Shield Push, another huge upgrade.
It might be inconveniently positioned, but it's no longer adjacent to the fighter, which was probably the goal of the shift in the first place. I don't really see it as out of line power-wise with other shenanigans a fighter can capitalize on with one feat.
Monster tries to shift one square, gets pushed + mobile challenged into a square 2 squares away from the original target, and so the fighter has cancelled a shift (and of course, the fighter can still be adjacent if they want)

Which is something that they cannot do unless you make a new rule that shifting has to have a target like attacks do.
Monster tries to shift one square, gets pushed + mobile challenged into a square 2 squares away from the original target, and so the fighter has cancelled a shift (and of course, the fighter can still be adjacent if they want)

Which is something that they cannot do unless you make a new rule that shifting has to have a target like attacks do.



Yeah, 'cause a flail fighter can't do this already but also troll with other tricks on top too.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
In paragon, with stats that line up, with one certain weapon group. Yes, they can. But you're still adding rules that make shield push better.
In paragon, with stats that line up, with one certain weapon group. Yes, they can. But you're still adding rules that make shield push better.



No, in heroic, starting from level 2 if you get a lightning weapon drop and are human, as I recall (moving up to like Slide 4 at 11). This is a really, really baseless argument.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
That's why item rarity rules exist. A baseless argument is one where you make up rules to make one feat better because of what works for another feat + item. And using mark of the storm as a comparison for what is balanced or not is silly.
That's why item rarity rules exist. A baseless argument is one where you make up rules to make one feat better because of what works for another feat + item. And using mark of the storm as a comparison for what is balanced or not is silly.



You're under the impression anyone is using made up rules by you. I'm just pointing out that even under your (not applicable, untrue) assumptions, there are ways to do mobile challenge and better from the get-go.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
better from the get-go


Yes, mark of the storm is broken. No, that is not a reasonable feat to compare to.


You're under the impression anyone is using made up rules by you


   And what I was referrring to is requiring a target square for shifts (which is not written, and not made up by me)
better from the get-go


Yes, mark of the storm is broken. No, that is not a reasonable feat to compare to.


You're under the impression anyone is using made up rules by you


   And what I was referrring to is requiring a target square for shifts (which is not written).



Mark of the Storm, broken? Man, this explains so much about that scrubby mindset. That's some heavy duty LSM you got.

As for the second point, spoilers man: that applies to your take on the rules. If you want to convince us that it doesn't work like we think it does, post rule quotes and explain them in painstaking detail so we can see how it all works out. Otherwise, there is no point in yelling about how it doesn't work that way - the onus is on you to prove it, not on us to listen to you.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
It doesn't have to be directly spelled out because the root definition of shifting is leaving one square for another. That's the written rule. A shift cannot initiate without a destination, because moving directly towards that destination is the only thing that shifting is. Again, shifting is not shuffling around for a minute and then choosing where you want to go.

Also, you're rating shield push and mobile challenge as if they were a package deal. They are two separate feats from separate sources released years apart and almost certainly written by separate devs. If they happen to work really well when you put them together... well add it to the 3984234 other powerful feat combos that exist in the game (and half of them are more powerful than this).

And just to reiterate, it's not that OP to be able to shut down one guy's turn if you hit twice. That's what fighters do. Hell, brawlers were designed to do just that from the get-go, no fancy item tricks required.
It is not as easy to prove that a rule does not exist as easy as it to prove that a specific rule does exist. There is no line for me to copy showing that you have a specific target square.

"The monster shifts Northwest away from you"
"I hit him first and push him"
"He shifts northwest."


I cannot even find where it says in the book that movement has to be another square (I am not arguing that it does not, because obviously going nowhere is not moving. I am just saying that I cannot find the part that you are looking at to find the other text around it for more info. I am looking at shift, page 292, PHB).

And they only work really well together when you require there to be a specific target square that can be nullified when you declare a shift.  
Rules Compendium p.200
I think the clearer rule is on pg 204, Ending a move. And I think that you are correct.
Rules Compendium pg 249.

 Shift
         Action: Move action.
         Movement: The creature moves 1 square. (Some powers and effects allow creatures to move farther than 1 square with a shift.)
         No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn’t trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks.
         Special Movement Modes: A creature can’t shift when using a movement mode that requires it to make a skill check. For instance, if it is climbing, it can’t shift if it has to make an Athletics check to climb. (A creature that has a climb speed can shift while climbing.)
That does not help, no ending/target squares are mentioned.
Regardless, Mark of Storm is a stupid effective feat, and far beyond the perks of most feats in the game.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

Mark of the Storm, broken? Man, this explains so much about that scrubby mindset. That's some heavy duty LSM you got.

As for the second point, spoilers man: that applies to your take on the rules. If you want to convince us that it doesn't work like we think it does, post rule quotes and explain them in painstaking detail so we can see how it all works out. Otherwise, there is no point in yelling about how it doesn't work that way - the onus is on you to prove it, not on us to listen to you.


It is broken. You and the forums need to get over its use being acceptable, and DM allowing Dragonmarks is asking for OP characters requiring even more effort to challenge, or you can just not allow terribly balanced feats and let players like you not invite us to your pity party.

I do kinda agree with Bob about the whole Shield Push issue, "I took a feat/power, so now you can't shift away from me if you're marked" but again, that's a problem with the 6 game elements that add forced movement to a MBA all being too good.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Mark of the Storm, broken? Man, this explains so much about that scrubby mindset. That's some heavy duty LSM you got.

As for the second point, spoilers man: that applies to your take on the rules. If you want to convince us that it doesn't work like we think it does, post rule quotes and explain them in painstaking detail so we can see how it all works out. Otherwise, there is no point in yelling about how it doesn't work that way - the onus is on you to prove it, not on us to listen to you.


It is broken. You and the forums need to get over its use being acceptable, and DM allowing Dragonmarks is asking for OP characters requiring even more effort to challenge, or you can just not allow terribly balanced feats and let players like you not invite us to your pity party.

I do kinda agree with Bob about the whole Shield Push issue, "I took a feat/power, so now you can't shift away from me if you're marked" but again, that's a problem with the 6 game elements that add forced movement to a MBA all being too good.



The problem is that this isn't really true. Not when Pinning Challenge exists, or when you can apply slows to targets at-will, or find ways to straight up deny shifting.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Are you seriously equating forced movement negating a shift on top of everything else it's used for to dropping your AC and Ref by 2 (you're a better target) to immobilize on MBAs (allies are a worse target), at-will slow, and "target cannot shift"? Stay away from me, I don't want to pick up the LSM that's going around.

I'm actually reversing my opinion on the shift issue, there's nothing saying you have to declare what square you're going into when you say you're taking the action, since otherwise Forced Movement can break Shifts and Teleports and takes 2 squares out of a Walk, which is absurd.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Immobilization equals proning, which equals attack penalties and access to headsman's chop, possibly permanently depending on the party. This all translates to 'your AC and Ref don't actually drop at all and your Fort and Will go up against challenged targets', which is pretty handy if you ask me. Pinning Challenge is a crazy great feat because it makes so many other things that are situational much easier to apply. There's no denying forced movement is super handy, but it's not like it doesn't have competition, plus it costs you your weapon enchant on a fighter, which you can use for equally good things. It's not like it's a freebie.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I'm actually reversing my opinion on the shift issue, there's nothing saying you have to declare what square you're going into when you say you're taking the action, since otherwise Forced Movement can break Shifts and Teleports and takes 2 squares out of a Walk, which is absurd.



This was my thinking on the matter. It definitely falls under the "expect table variance" category. Most DM's i've played with declared the shift move by actually moving into a square but i could see them just as easily saying "the random enemy next too you, Mighty fighter, is wary of your presence next to him and he decided to step away from you to rethink his situation. He is going to shift so you may interrupt this action."
I'm really at a loss to see how interpreting Mobile Challenge and Shield Push as actually being functional is somehow so overpowered. Should a fighter not be able to lock one guy down per round at the cost of his immediate action? Keep in mind by shifting away from his other marks a Fighter is basically letting them do whatever they want with no punishment. I don't know about you, but in my games we fight multiple enemies at a time.

And when forced move interrupts can negate entire attacks it's hard for me to get upset about 2 squares of a walk action.
I'm actually reversing my opinion on the shift issue, there's nothing saying you have to declare what square you're going into when you say you're taking the action, since otherwise Forced Movement can break Shifts and Teleports and takes 2 squares out of a Walk, which is absurd.

I can't be asked to dig it up, though Spaceinvader might have a link, but there was an extensive Rules Q&A thread about this exact issue. There are actually numerous game elements which depend on declaring a destination square to be functional (like Polearm Gamble), they need to know where you are moving to prior to you actually moving. I am not (and was not in that thread) willing to go to the extreme that once you've declared your square nothing can change it and if you can't get to that square you're SOL, but it seems very reasonable to not randomly break a bunch of game elements and say you have to specify which square you are intending to move to, even if a bunch of stuff interferes after that and you have to pick a new square.
There are actually numerous game elements which depend on declaring a destination square to be functional (like Polearm Gamble), they need to know where you are moving to prior to you actually moving. I am not (and was not in that thread) willing to go to the extreme that once you've declared your square nothing can change it and if you can't get to that square you're SOL, but it seems very reasonable to not randomly break a bunch of game elements and say you have to specify which square you are intending to move to, even if a bunch of stuff interferes after that and you have to pick a new square.


I'm willing to accept that
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.