From Omniscience to Infinity

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I want to preface this by saying that I don't know much about blue. However, I discovered a fun post-GC combination the other day, and my wife wants to build a blue deck around it, so I'm looking for some assistance in helping her round it out. Thanks ahead of time for any suggestions.

The deck will revolve around this combination:



Is it the fastest combination win in the game? Probably not, but it looks really fun. The idea is to cast Omniscience, then play Enter the Infinite at no cost. Once you have your entire library (-1 card) in your hand, you play Temporal Mastery, giving you two consecutive turns in which you can play any card for free.

My instinct is that it will need some serious ramp. It might be necessary to include some green for this purpose, e.g. Arbor Elf, Fog to buy some time, etc. But if there's a way to keep it mono-blue, that would be preferable.

Suggestions? Thanks again.

Here's the latest deck list:
[deck]
4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path
4 Arbor Elf

4 Gatekeeper Vine
4 Axebane Guardian
4 Fog Bank

1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Biovisionary
4 Cackling Counterpart
4 Realmwright
4 Deranged Assistant

4 Index
4 Rewind
4 Unexpected Results
4 Infinite Reflection
3 Enter the Infinite
3 Omniscience
4 Temporal Mastery

4 Hinterland Harbor
10 Island
10 Forest[/deck] 

This is just a draft; I know it needs to be slimmed.

P.S. Kind of a neat point: with Realmwright, you can use Arbor Elves to untap your islands. Who says there's no blue ramp?
I think that this strategy is at least feasible.  It all boils down to two factors:

1.  Whether or not you can last long enough to get to that point

2.  Whether or not everything in your deck can get that kill-shot once it's all out

Personally, I wouldn't rely entirely on this condition to win the game.  You should have a plan B in case your opponent is running something like aggro.
Agreed, and I was thinking that the plan B could be the same thing as the killshot you mentioned. For example, the deck could run direct damage, which could be used both (a) to wipe out creatures while setting up the combination and then (b) as the killshot once the combination goes off.

Do you have any suggestions for the "secondary" strategy? 
I don't think you'll be able to pull off  mono blue. I think ideally the deck would be green, blue, and black. Green for Farseek, Ranger's Path, Arbor Elf, etc. Blue would be for your temporal masteries, omniscience, and enter the infinite. Black would be for finding omniscience and enter the infinite either by tutoring Diabolic Revelation or by drawing cards via Griselbrand. Artifacts like Chromatic Lantern and Gilded Lotus would be helpful in mana fixing and getting up to 10 mana for Omniscience. I also don't think you want 4 copies of enter the infinite or omniscience. You probably just want 1 of each in the deck and a way to tutor them both up such as diabolic revelation. 

"This list much made Niche barf a lil' in his mouth, so I can be proud of that." -rstnme

4 Biovisionary's, or biovisionary and infinite reflection
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/rCB4r.jpg)
The perfect deck for the combo
Omnidoor Thragfire.
I'm playing it in Standard right now and it's the most fun I've had since I first started playing.
Needs more Buzz Lightyear references.

Also, the Omnidoor deck is the best fit for Enter the Infinite. Just don't play Worldfire.

(at)MrEnglish22

The perfect deck for the combo
Omnidoor Thragfire.
I'm playing it in Standard right now and it's the most fun I've had since I first started playing.



I was waiting for someone to say this. I just got lazy :c

But yeah. Omnidoor is the only home for this card, Maybe in some blue EDH too.
Decks I play: Modern: R/G Tron B/w Soul Sisters EDH: Gisela Midrange Edric Tap em down n' Swing Karrthus, the dragonlord Kaervek, the troll. Standard: The Aristocrats
Is there no blue ramp in Standard?
Is there no blue ramp in Standard?



Something tells me you don't know your color pies. Blue is about permision and drawing, Red is burn and aggro-goodness, Green is Ramping and more aggro, Black is kill spells and fieldwipe and some draw power, White does it all in some way, they have wipes, some kill spells, they have alot of aggro.

There's probably no blue ramp in the history of magic besides High Tide but that's not ramp first of all, secondly difinately not standard.
 
The best things for ramping outside of Green and Black, are some ok artifact acceleration.
Decks I play: Modern: R/G Tron B/w Soul Sisters EDH: Gisela Midrange Edric Tap em down n' Swing Karrthus, the dragonlord Kaervek, the troll. Standard: The Aristocrats
Is there no blue ramp in Standard?



Something tells me you don't know your color pies. Blue is about permision and drawing, Red is burn and aggro-goodness, Green is Ramping and more aggro, Black is kill spells and fieldwipe and some draw power, White does it all in some way, they have wipes, some kill spells, they have alot of aggro.

There's probably no blue ramp in the history of magic besides High Tide but that's not ramp first of all, secondly difinately not standard.
 
The best things for ramping outside of Green and Black, are some ok artifact acceleration.



Something tells me you didn't read the first sentence of this thread

But really, I do know the basics of each color, and I know that blue does have spells that work as ramp. High Tide, Rewind,  Benthic Explorers, Energy Tap, Grand Architect, Mana Drain, and a total of 19 cards according to a gatherer.wizards.com search for blue cards with "add to your mana pool". Unfortunately, in standard, all I can find is Deranged Assistant.

What are some good artifacts in Standard for acceleration? 
It's basically just keyrunes, Chromatic Lantern, and Gilded Lotus. All are bad for mono colored decks. If you want to ramp in standard you want green for farseek and Ranger's Path.

"This list much made Niche barf a lil' in his mouth, so I can be proud of that." -rstnme

It's basically just keyrunes, Chromatic Lantern, and Gilded Lotus. All are bad for mono colored decks. If you want to ramp in standard you want green for farseek and Ranger's Path.



OK, thanks all. Appreciate your input. I'm not posting a full list of what I think the deck should be, because it's her project, not mine.
Nineteen cards IN ALL OF MAGICS HISTORY. Think about how many sets, how many cards that is.
And some of the ones you mentioned aren't even really mana ramp - Rewind only untaps lands you (generally) tapped to play the spell, and Mana Drain is a one time boost and is BANNED IN LEGACY. 
The only "blue ramp" deck is High Tide, and some tier 2 junky decks using Grand Architect to cast Wurmcoil Engine.

You can't grab a person with three arms and say "look! this describes all humans!" No, that just makes them a freak. 

(at)MrEnglish22

if you dont want to go the omnidoor thragfire route, you could make a simple g/u defender deck with Axebane Guardian and gatekeeper vine as your main mana ramp sourceand arbor elf thrown in if needed. this also opens up Fog Bank as well, which is always nice.

this also opens up the biovisionary and infinite reflection wincon, which could be fun

the biovisionary mechanic is fairly simple and i'm sure it can be refined.
forest. play arbor elf
forest. play gatecreeper. search for island
island. play axebane
island. play biovisionary
forest. infinite reflections. gg

the EtI mechanic would be a bit longer but the formula is the same. arbor elf into gatecreeper into axebane and so on until you get 10 mana with omni and eti in your hand. from there, win-con's are effortless. temporal mastery into labratory maniac + any draw card, or even temporal into biovisionary + reflections if you have the creatures for it.

unexpected results can be fun if you get a 3rd turn omni but its risky and theres probably better things to use that mana on than risks.

honorary mentions to index for being an amazing card to set up your combo, unexpected results to surprise people (including yourself) with a combo out of nowhere (i can already see the laughter as someone inevidably reveals an omni or infinite reflections for the surprise victory), and realmwright for possibly being a very backwards mana source. o, and if you go the biovisionary route, cackling counterpart can be a really fun card. copy an axebane for more mana or copy a biovisionary for the win. its a very diverse card.
if you dont want to go the omnidoor thragfire route, you could make a simple g/u defender deck with Axebane Guardian and gatekeeper vine as your main mana ramp sourceand arbor elf thrown in if needed. this also opens up Fog Bank as well, which is always nice.

this also opens up the biovisionary and infinite reflection wincon, which could be fun

the biovisionary mechanic is fairly simple and i'm sure it can be refined.
forest. play arbor elf
forest. play gatecreeper. search for island
island. play axebane
island. play biovisionary
forest. infinite reflections. gg

the EtI mechanic would be a bit longer but the formula is the same. arbor elf into gatecreeper into axebane and so on until you get 10 mana with omni and eti in your hand. from there, win-con's are effortless. temporal mastery into labratory maniac + any draw card, or even temporal into biovisionary + reflections if you have the creatures for it.

unexpected results can be fun if you get a 3rd turn omni but its risky and theres probably better things to use that mana on than risks.

honorary mentions to index for being an amazing card to set up your combo, unexpected results to surprise people (including yourself) with a combo out of nowhere (i can already see the laughter as someone inevidably reveals an omni or infinite reflections for the surprise victory), and realmwright for possibly being a very backwards mana source. o, and if you go the biovisionary route, cackling counterpart can be a really fun card. copy an axebane for more mana or copy a biovisionary for the win. its a very diverse card.



Thanks for the great feedback! I updated the original post with a sample decklist. It needs some trimming, but I wanted to get everything on paper before I started to pare it down. Where do you think cuts should be made? 
tough to call really. the unexpected results makes having 4 omni/temporal/EtI/reflections necessary but that just seems like a bad idea in my head. i've been going back and forth with the numbers on this one so im not sure what the right answer is yet.

considering just how precise the combo has to be, im not sure if unexpected results is a good path to take for this deck. the EtI + omni combo requires both cards in your hand to work properly. the only time i would ever be happy with getting an early reveal of 1 of them is if i had the other in my hand. besides that, its kinda pointless. and if you draw an infinite reflections when you dont have biovisionary on the field, you're kindof screwed (unless you just want to make all your creatures axebane's and stall till eti/omni is playable

one thing to note with the lab maniac is that you need to actually have a way to draw that last card with him in play to win the game with his ability. this means 1 of 2 things. you could either use a simply draw card (theres countless options in blue. i prefer thought scour but you could use abundant growth if you want) OR you could use temporal to get more turns and draw that way. personally, i prefer the draw card method simply because i tend to miracle temporal's early on for more ramp and i dont want to get stuck with none by the time my eti/omni combo hits.

one honorable mention i completely forgot about is burst of strength. its not a card that instantly makes sense but think about adding this to an axebane guardian. it can effectively multiply your mana ramp and end the game several turns sooner than people expect an eti/omni deck would.

one more honorable mention is simic keyrune. with the omnidoor thragfire deck gaining popularity, supreme verdict is getting popular and we need a way to have creatures when something like that hits. definitely sideboard worthy if you're worried about an opponent destroying your creatures with a wipe.

summary

personally, unexpected results is just too risky and i dont like having half of my combo out when i cant get to the other half yet. feels too vulnerable. i'd remove those 4 and add in 4 burst of strength.

rewind is an interesting card and 1 i didnt think about. either way, it seems a bit cluttered. its trying to be a ramp spell AND a counterspell. the end result is just goofy. for a ramp deck like this one where you can very quickly have tons of mana, syncopate might work better. added bonus of exile over simply graveyard to mess with all sorts of graveyard shenanigans

the assistant is another card i wouldnt have thought of. personally, i prefer fog bank. helps the axebane with defender and its a flying
I think this deck does want some form of the OmniDoor "shell".  I'm thinking:

And probably even some array of farseeks and ranger's paths.  Maybe some kind of BUG build?  I don't know how getting rid of white which gives you sweeps will do, but it probably requires playtesting.

Proxy something up and test it out 
You have a bunch of random stuff in your deck that is pointless. There, I said it.

Drop Unexpected Results. Drop Realmwright.

If you are playing Omniscience, your number one goal should be to cast Omniscience, nothing else. Splash black so you can have tutors to find the things you need, play ramp spells so you can hit 10 mana. Play some wincons. Boom, deck.

Like this:
4 Chromatic Lantern
3 Gilded Lotus

4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path

4 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
4 Temporal Mastery

3 Lingering Souls
3 Increasing Ambition
1 Diabolic Revelations

4 Biovisionary
1 Infinite Reflection

4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Godless Shrine
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


Biovisionary might be better as something else, but the idea is there.

(at)MrEnglish22

You have a bunch of random stuff in your deck that is pointless. There, I said it.

Drop Unexpected Results. Drop Realmwright.

If you are playing Omniscience, your number one goal should be to cast Omniscience, nothing else. Splash black so you can have tutors to find the things you need, play ramp spells so you can hit 10 mana. Play some wincons. Boom, deck.

Like this:
4 Chromatic Lantern
3 Gilded Lotus

4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path

4 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
4 Temporal Mastery

3 Lingering Souls
3 Increasing Ambition
1 Diabolic Revelations

4 Biovisionary
1 Infinite Reflection

4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Godless Shrine
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


Biovisionary might be better as something else, but the idea is there.

splashing black means you lose all creatures. the risk of losing before you get your full combo out is a bit much when ur only really guaranteeing a 6-7 turn victory. i dont see a GUB omni/EtI deck with no creatures or control or fog ever surviving that long.
You have a bunch of random stuff in your deck that is pointless. There, I said it.

Drop Unexpected Results. Drop Realmwright.

If you are playing Omniscience, your number one goal should be to cast Omniscience, nothing else. Splash black so you can have tutors to find the things you need, play ramp spells so you can hit 10 mana. Play some wincons. Boom, deck.

Like this:
4 Chromatic Lantern
3 Gilded Lotus

4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path

4 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
4 Temporal Mastery

3 Lingering Souls
3 Increasing Ambition
1 Diabolic Revelations

4 Biovisionary
1 Infinite Reflection

4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Godless Shrine
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


Biovisionary might be better as something else, but the idea is there.

splashing black means you lose all creatures. the risk of losing before you get your full combo out is a bit much when ur only really guaranteeing a 6-7 turn victory. i dont see a GUB omni/EtI deck with no creatures or control or fog ever surviving that long.



Lingering Souls is a creature. Two even. For each time you cast it.
 Also, the deck really sucks without hitting Temporal Mastery anyway, creatures or no. Doesn't change the fact that Index, Unexpected Results, and Realmwright are terrible cards that you shouldn't play. I only listed Biovisionary as the wincon because the card is new and cute. You are far better off with some Thragtusks and Griselbrands and maybe an Aurelia. Maybe a Laboratory Maniac if you somehow can't kill them with combat damage.
But the bottom line, you shouldn't expect to win against aggro decks with something like this.t
Deranged Assistant is also bad, but I don't think I need to explain why a self-milling mana dork isn't preferable to a 1-drop mana dork.
And relying on creatures to give you the mana you need is setting you up for sad times when they kill off your mana with Pillar of Flame.

(at)MrEnglish22

You have a bunch of random stuff in your deck that is pointless. There, I said it.

Drop Unexpected Results. Drop Realmwright.

If you are playing Omniscience, your number one goal should be to cast Omniscience, nothing else. Splash black so you can have tutors to find the things you need, play ramp spells so you can hit 10 mana. Play some wincons. Boom, deck.

Like this:
4 Chromatic Lantern
3 Gilded Lotus

4 Farseek
4 Ranger's Path

4 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
4 Temporal Mastery

3 Lingering Souls
3 Increasing Ambition
1 Diabolic Revelations

4 Biovisionary
1 Infinite Reflection

4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Godless Shrine
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


Biovisionary might be better as something else, but the idea is there.

splashing black means you lose all creatures. the risk of losing before you get your full combo out is a bit much when ur only really guaranteeing a 6-7 turn victory. i dont see a GUB omni/EtI deck with no creatures or control or fog ever surviving that long.



Lingering Souls is a creature. Two even. For each time you cast it.
 Also, the deck really sucks without hitting Temporal Mastery anyway, creatures or no. Doesn't change the fact that Index, Unexpected Results, and Realmwright are terrible cards that you shouldn't play. I only listed Biovisionary as the wincon because the card is new and cute. You are far better off with some Thragtusks and Griselbrands and maybe an Aurelia. Maybe a Laboratory Maniac if you somehow can't kill them with combat damage.
But the bottom line, you shouldn't expect to win against aggro decks with something like this.t
Deranged Assistant is also bad, but I don't think I need to explain why a self-milling mana dork isn't preferable to a 1-drop mana dork.
And relying on creatures to give you the mana you need is setting you up for sad times when they kill off your mana with Pillar of Flame.




Your solution to my mana problems is Griselbrand? Seriously?

Are you just here to troll, or... ? 


Your solution to my mana problems is Griselbrand? Seriously?

Are you just here to troll, or... ? 



Your mana problems? You're having mana problems? I was talking about win-cons.
If you have 4 Farseek, 4 Ranger's Path, 4 Chromatic Lantern, and 3 Gilded Lotus and have mana problems, then thats more of a "The Universe Hates You" problem than a mana problem.

(at)MrEnglish22

if a burn deck wants to spend its time killing off my axebane, i say go for it. at 3, its not the easiest thing to kill. the difference between 2 toughness and 3 is HUGE. lots of things to 2 dmg. remember, pillar of flame only deals 2. you'd need a brimstone volley to deal 3. the difference between making a burn deck waste 1 mana and 3 mana is huge.

a burn deck is just as much a timebomb as any omni/eti deck is. the difference is that if you survive a burn deck's initial assault, you will most likely win. there is no surviving an omni/eti deck that gets to turn 6-7. it just wont happen. too many win cons to prevent. dont look at a burn deck and instantly think its unkillable with a slower deck like this. you have to remember what a burn deck is. it is specifically designed to deal 20 dmg in less than 6 turns. if a burn deck lasts more than 5 or 6 turns, its not a burn deck anymore. its a failure. with some fine tuning and the right sideboard, you could make this work.

if you're REALLY scared of burn decks, witchbane orb, oak street inkeeper, or even a simple simic charm can fix that. hell, add in a curse of echoes if you're feeling fun. or just run fog...
if a burn deck wants to spend its time killing off my axebane, i say go for it. at 3, its not the easiest thing to kill. the difference between 2 toughness and 3 is HUGE. lots of things to 2 dmg. remember, pillar of flame only deals 2. you'd need a brimstone volley to deal 3. the difference between making a burn deck waste 1 mana and 3 mana is huge.

a burn deck is just as much a timebomb as any omni/eti deck is. the difference is that if you survive a burn deck's initial assault, you will most likely win. there is no surviving an omni/eti deck that gets to turn 6-7. it just wont happen. too many win cons to prevent. dont look at a burn deck and instantly think its unkillable with a slower deck like this. you have to remember what a burn deck is. it is specifically designed to deal 20 dmg in less than 6 turns. if a burn deck lasts more than 5 or 6 turns, its not a burn deck anymore. its a failure. with some fine tuning and the right sideboard, you could make this work.

if you're REALLY scared of burn decks, witchbane orb, oak street inkeeper, or even a simple simic charm can fix that. hell, add in a curse of echoes if you're feeling fun. or just run fog...



'Graph 1: Situational juistification for things which can be debunked

'Graph 2: Pointing out that all decks have a clock of some fashion, as if I didn't understand concepts of this game, then a claim that this style of deck isn't bad against an aggro deck

'Graph 3: Suggestions of cards that don't really solve the problem of an aggro deck

Entire post: Misunderstanding of the difference between "aggro" and "burn."

So tell me, how do you beat this line of play:
T1: Land, Rakdos Cackler
T2: Land, Ash Zealot, swing for 4 (16)
T3: Land, Geralf's Messenger, swing for 4 (10)
T4: Land, Falkenrath Aristocrat, swing for 11 (-1)

Obviously that's Magical Christmasland, but when a deck runs 4 copies of each of those cards, its not that far fetched to see that line at least once in a 6+ round tournament.

Grats, your Axebane Guardian doesn't die to Pillar of Flame. Still dies to Searing Spear (the best removal spell in the format, which I said months ago) or block + pillar. And the difference between 1 and 2 isn't as big. "Oh, I just won't block with my Guardian." I guess you'll just die too.

A burn or aggro deck isn't a time bomb. Its a countdown to your death. An Omni deck is a building chemical reaction, after reaching its critical mass "going off" and doing a bunch of potentially letahal stuff. Its also rather easy to still kill off an Omni deck that manages to go off, depending on the situation.

You also seem to have an unrealistic view of current standard - rakdos aggro decks assume they won't win by turn 4 - they can, but rarely do. That's why the run Falkenrath Aristocrat and Thundermaw Hellkite - to finish the job. And remember, burn = aggro, but aggro does not always = burn. A shirt can be blue, but all blue things are not shirts.
Obviously you can make your sideboard to stomp on aggro decks, which you would probably need to do. But remember that anything not dedicated to casting Omniscience (and therefore not achieving your win-con) is something that isn't helping you win; it only helps you to not-lose.

Witchbane Orb is only useful against stuff which they will end up using to kill your creatures if it can't target you (and is generally the better option for the deck), I don't even remember what Oak-Street Inkeep is beyond limited fodder, and Simic Charm/Unsummon only slow down the clock by a minor amount. Fog gives you a turn, but also wastes a card which could be used to speed themselves up by a turn.

(at)MrEnglish22

Here's what I've been thinking for using enter the infinite in a deck:



It's honestly just Travis Woo's OmniDoor ThragFire deck (www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-bre...) with some changes to make room for new wincons (biovisionary) and enter the infinite.  I don't know how well it will do, but I think it will be fun to play.