How is Jace Memory Adept not banned?

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It puts the opposing player on a 3-4 turn clock simply by repeating its 0 ability. 

I don't get how this card could be published, much less not banned. I have lost to it perhaps 90% of the times it's been played. It probably has a kill rate similar to Nicol Bolas, but at a much simpler casting cost.

If I felt like winning lots of boring, uninteractive games, I'd play four Jaces, but I like to enjoy my games, so I don't.

I just don't see how this card can exist.
 
I think the "problem" is the potency of destruction.

I honestly don't think that 0-creature decks should be possible.
Walls, sure.

Why aren't there more global enchantments that prohibit attacking instead of complete and utter destruction at every turn?

...
There's bounds of unused design terrain that doesn't push destruction.
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Chant of the Innocent 1W
Whenever damage is dealt to you, put a feather counter on Chant of the Innocent for each point of damage.
Remove a feather counter from Chant of the Innocent: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you.
If a source you control causes an opponent to lose life, sacrifice Chant of the Innocent.
(The latter is because 2 of these in play == stalemate)

Symphony of Destruction 1B
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, put a needle counter on Symphony of Destruction for each point of damage dealt.
Remove two needle counters from Symphony of Destruction: Target opponent loses 1 life.

Melody of Life 1G
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, put a 0/1 green saproiling token into play under your control.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control 10 or more creature with 0 power, sacrifice Melody of Life and put a 10/10 green avatar creature token into play.

Tune of Discord 1R
Whenever a creature attacks you, attacking creatures get -1/-0

Song of the Sirens 1U
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, that creature doesn't untap during it's controllers untap step.




Destruction is "all or nothing", 1 for 1, 2 for 1 or 10 for 1-- pushing the "every card costing 4 or more must be indestructible, resistant to removal, able to replace itself or game-winning"-meta.
It puts the opposing player on a 3-4 turn clock simply by repeating its 0 ability. 

I don't get how this card could be published, much less not banned. I have lost to it perhaps 90% of the times it's been played. It probably has a kill rate similar to Nicol Bolas, but at a much simpler casting cost.
 


Because it's not that good. And neither is Bolas. What are you doing when they hit the board? Do you just sit back and let them do their thing? You know you can attack them, right? You know you can redirect non-combat damage you control from a player to any planeswalker he controls, right?

If these cards are consistently beating you than you are doing something terribly wrong.

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

I think it's a matter of price, not ability nor will.
Speaking just from Standard's point of view:

Pithing Needle, naming Jace Memory Adept shuts him down as early as turn 1.
Dreadbore, kills the Jace currently in play as early as turn 2, but Jace can't come down until turn 3 at the earliest (Turn 1: land + dork, turn 2: land + ramp spell, turn 3: land + Jace).
Dealing him 4 damage, kills Jace if they can't block it.  Burn, creature swings.  It gets there.
Elixir of Immortality, Just when they thought they had you, you crack this and undo all their hard work.  This is shut down via Rest in Piece.
Oblivion Ring, exiles that Jace as early as turn 3, but again, he can't come down that early.
Counter him, if they want to put you on a fast clock, then need to play him ASAP.  That leaves them volnerable to Syncopate for X = 1.  Otherwise, Negate works pretty well.
Witchbane Orb, you can't be milled if you can't be targeted.  Comes online possibly 1 turn slower than the fastest possible Jace, but 1 turn sooner than a normal, non-ramped Jace.

Mill is rarely a viable stategy unless you can rip large amounts of cards (15+) at the same time.  It usually requires a combo to do it, since most mill spells are just really inefficent burn spells on their own.

Spoiler Alert


Even with Duskmantle Guildmage from Gatecrash.  You're suddenly pairing a 5 mana planeswalker with a 3 mana 2/2.  It's very easy to remove a 2/2, and you need to pay if you want to get the kill in 1 turn (and even than is via life lose, not Mill, which renders all other mill spells in the deck moot).



My Decks
Standard: BR Aggro Burn RDW Modern: Dragon Stompy Burn Fae Tempo Zoo Cherrios Legacy: Zoo Dragon Stompy Pauper: Slivers Landfall EDH: Sliver Overlord
1000th post on 2-1-10. 5000th post on 1-21-13.

Memory Adept is not banned because he's not showing up in every winner decks of any sanctioned format. Standard tournaments aren't "decks running Jace" vs "decks build to beat Jace" (like it was when Jace, the Mind Sculptor got banned). So yes, no banning.



What color are you running? If he's just spamming the 0: ability, four damage is enough to take him down (Thundermaw Hellkite and he's story); or use Dreadbore, Oblivion Ring, Bramblecrush, Negate, Duress...

[<o>]
What color are you running? If he's just spamming the 0: ability, four damage is enough to take him down (Thundermaw Hellkite and he's story); or use Dreadbore, Oblivion Ring, Bramblecrush, Negate, Duress...


Or just ing attack! I mean, even green ramp into fatties can do that, and it's been an acceptable way to play since '95, if not since '93.

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Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

What color are you running? If he's just spamming the 0: ability, four damage is enough to take him down (Thundermaw Hellkite and he's story); or use Dreadbore, Oblivion Ring, Bramblecrush, Negate, Duress...


Or just ing attack! I mean, even green ramp into fatties can do that, and it's been an acceptable way to play since '95, if not since '93.



I run a pretty creature-light control deck. I'm always willing to consider the possibility that I'm totally incompetent, and while that is often true, I don't think it's true in this case. I've only been playing a few months, but my win rate on MTGO Tournament Practice room is about 40%. 

 I do happen to have 1 or 2 Elixirs of Immortality in my deck, as well as Detention Spheres, but the problem is that when when Jace is milling you for 10 cards/turn, they all end up in the "#$%&' graveyard. 

Obviously I need to think of better ways to counter the threat, BUT: just consider whether the other 5 mana planeswalkers out there put you on a 3-4 turn clock. The answer is no. They are not nearly as much of an immediate threat as Jace Memory Adept. 
I honestly don't think that 0-creature decks should be possible.



Not so much that. It's not that storm (the archetypal broken creatureless deck) is broken because it doesn't have any creatures. It's that storm is broken because giving your player a spell that does X damage, where X is determined by something a player can increase but never decrease over the course of a turn, is a Bad Thing.

The same logic can be applied to every Tier 1 creatureless deck ever. Creatureless decks have the obvious weakness of being unable to block, for starters.

Spamming the 0 ability and no creatures means "just attack, goddammit!"
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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I run a pretty creature-light control deck.


Without Oblivion Ring, Negate, Dreadbore, Devil's Play, Bramblecrush, or, well, something to deal with a planeswalker?

I'm serioius, do you really have nothing to deal with it?

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers
proud member of the 2011 community team
if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers



I know. And I know I need to find a way around it. My point, which has been systematically ignored, is that no other similarly-costed  planeswalker has a hard 3-4 turn clock. Not Jace Architect, not Tamiyo, not either of the Garruks, not Lilliana. The only one who has such a fast clock is Nicol Bolas, and people don't play him not because he isn't strong, but because he's so hard to cast. 

And to the person who said that milling needed 15 cards per turn to be effective, tell that to the Bant control decks winning tournaments with Nephalia DrownyardSurprised
run Elixir of Immortality and laugh at the silly mill mage
or any of the legendary eldrazi outside of Standard
proud member of the 2011 community team
I run a pretty creature-light control deck.


Without Oblivion Ring, Negate, Dreadbore, Devil's Play, Bramblecrush, or, well, something to deal with a planeswalker?

I'm serioius, do you really have nothing to deal with it?



I do. I run 3 or 4 Detention Spheres and 2-3 Negates, not to mention Elixir of Immortality. If I don't have an answer when Jace hits the board, though, there is so little time to find one. Yeah I can fill my side-board with Pithing Needles and O-rings, but that weakens you against other kinds of matchups as well....
Funny, I was just watching Andrew Cuneo play Jon Finkel in Round 4 of Atlanta GP. Finkel played a Jace Memory Adept on turn 5 or 6, and despite having 18 life Cuneo just instantly conceded....
 
if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers



I know. And I know I need to find a way around it. My point, which has been systematically ignored, is that no other similarly-costed  planeswalker has a hard 3-4 turn clock. Not Jace Architect, not Tamiyo, not either of the Garruks, not Lilliana. The only one who has such a fast clock is Nicol Bolas, and people don't play him not because he isn't strong, but because he's so hard to cast. 

And to the person who said that milling needed 15 cards per turn to be effective, tell that to the Bant control decks winning tournaments with Nephalia Drownyard



Bant Control is not a mill deck.  It is a control deck, that in the control mirror, it's usually quicker to try to mill the other deck out, rather than fight through endless Thragtusks while Sphinx's Revelations get fired off.  It's just not effective to try to lay on the beat down.  But they will still try before things get out of hand.  Drownyard works because often the deck playing against it is trying to draw lots of cards, and otherwise making it difficult for creatures to kill them thanks to lifegain.

In this case, control-mirrors often go to time, which makes every hit of 3 cards count because both decks are built for the long hall, and it's very hard to add cards to your library.  If you can neutralize the other guy's Elixir and keep yours, you could be sitting in a good spot when the Judge calls time and you go into turns.
My Decks
Standard: BR Aggro Burn RDW Modern: Dragon Stompy Burn Fae Tempo Zoo Cherrios Legacy: Zoo Dragon Stompy Pauper: Slivers Landfall EDH: Sliver Overlord
1000th post on 2-1-10. 5000th post on 1-21-13.
Funny, I was just watching Andrew Cuneo play Jon Finkel in Round 4 of Atlanta GP. Finkel played a Jace Memory Adept on turn 5 or 6, and despite having 18 life Cuneo just instantly conceded....
 

This is very anecdotal, but one time in a small local FNM Standard Tourny, fairly soon after M13 was released, I was playing against a guy with Jaces in his deck.  He kept using Jace's  "+1 I draw, you mill" ability in order to dig for something that wasn't land, which he kept drawing.  I attacked and had the option of hitting his Jace to dead or hitting him down to 2 in this one turn.  I took the player damage option and put him at 2 life, letting him keep the Jace, hoping to draw a burn spell or get another attack in for the win next turn.  I lost that game.

I'm not saying that Jace, Memory Adept is "like totally broken" or anything, but it is a really good card for its mana cost (and hey, it's mythic, so it probably should be), and like a lot of planeswalkers, can be brutal if left unchecked for more than a turn or two. 

I would also like to point out that the age-old argument which goes "it's not broken if theres a card in the format that hoses it" doesn't impress me.  A lot of cards that actually WERE banned had answers to them in their respective formats.  It's the hallmark of banned cards that they continue to be brutal DESPITE that being the case, because of how good they really are when NOT dealt with.  If a card is so broken that you're mulliganing down to 4 cards just to draw that hoser for it, there might be something to the idea of banning it.

That said, I wouldn't ban Jace, and for the exact reason some people have stated, it isn't warping the format and becoming the only card everyone plays.  Also, there aren't just one or two cards that deal with it, there are like half a dozen (plus you can just attack with creatures).  There's one in almost every color, and there's a cheap colorless one.  So you not only have a silver bullet, you have your choice of a full magazine full of them, and almost all of those silver bullets have uses outside of just dealing with Jace.  O-ring is so generically usefull that a white control deck should probably be playing 4 even when not playing against Jace, because it will usually have a target of some kind.  Pithing Needle is a pretty ubiquitous sideboard card in almost every format that it's legal in.

Your control deck seems like it loses to a Jace that resolves.  This just means its a bad matchup for your deck.  Almost all decks have a bad matchup somewhere in the metagame, even top tier tournament decks.  Your Jace player probably sideboards one or more Jaces out against more agressive creature beatdown decks, because the jace costs 5 mana, mills the guy one time, then gets attacked and killed.  Its all a matter of perspective.
if you are a control deck you need to be able to control planeswalkers



The first time I built a control deck, the first thing I learned was, you need to be able to answer everything. And that was before planeswalkers.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
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