Drow stealth shooter

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I have been searching and have not been able to find a build combining a few of these elements and wanted to see if anyone has already and if not how they think the following build would work in practice as opposed to just theory.


 


Basically use the assassin|rogue MC warlock chasis for:


1)      Pact initiate


2)      Cursed shadow


3)      Hybrid talent (cunning sneak)


 To be able to become hidden after moving 3 squares from shadow walk and cunning sneak.  Take Drow as race as another way to get CA, the right stats and hand xbow support in paragon (or sooner if its worth it?)


 


The intention of the build is to be able to do ranged attacks, stay hidden, and have mobility if needed.


 


The assassin|rogue mc warlock is not required by any stretch it just seemed to be one of the most reliable methods of being hidden while still being able to use encounter and daily powers.


 


My major questions are what is the best paragon path to pursue and when is it best to switch from superior xbow to hand xbow?


 


 The top two in my mind seem to be dread fang and champion of the vigil.  I have seen cloaked sniper talked about a lot in terms of a ranged rogue but for some reason it’s really not blowing my skirt up.  I think it is because generally I like paragon path features more than the powers unless they are spectacular.


 


Champion seems pretty foul with very good accuracy (easily achievable in this build) and crit range of 19-20 a lot of time.  These two hopefully combine to lead to ruthless hunter and two fisted shooter triggering frequently (extra attacks and high crit).  The AP ability on this PP is not great but not horrible either IMO.  Of the powers the daily seems good but the other two are meh.


 


Dread fang gets strong sneak attack damage (probably going to get it almost all the time I am using rogue powers) as well as a nice action point booster (more sneak attack).  The 16 ability is meh.  The encounter power for dread fang is nice (a double tap) but the utility and daily seem pretty awful in this build.


 


Feats seem pretty straight forward:


Pact initiate


Cursed shadow


Hybrid talent (cunning sneak)


Weapon expertise


Two fisted shooter


Ruthless hunter


Steady shooter


Slaying action (if not dread fang)


Drow fighting style (if for some reason I am getting in melee)


Weapon focus?


 


There are probably a lot more nice choices but that is what I can think of off the top of my head.  What are your thoughts and are there other pages you would recommend I check out to flesh out this build?

well yea, didn't catch that change, so it makes that easy.  Thanks for the response erachima, I am a huge fan of your mia build and play a version of it in another I game I play.

Any thoughts on which paragon path you like for this? 
You've just been searching for the wrong keywords. This is a typical perma-stealth build, or in the rogue handbook referred to as permahidden. It's also pretty common to pick up Ethereal Sidestep one way or another and boost it at least to 3 so you can always hide without worrying about terrain and whatnot.

What you may want to consider is going heavy blade and picking up HBO. The real (striker) benefit of always being hidden is that you can get OA's to rack up your off-turn damage.
What you may want to consider is going heavy blade and picking up HBO. The real (striker) benefit of always being hidden is that you can get OA's to rack up your off-turn damage.



+1. As opposed to spending resources to encourage your DM to do the correct tactical decision of doing focus fire(on your non-hidden teammates...)

Thank you for the advice everyone.  After taking your feedback and looking at executioner I was thinking of doing the following:


 


Drow Rogue | executioner MC warlock with Yakuza theme


 


This will let me use dex for MBA’s from hybrid executioner and add charisma to hit and damage on OA’s.  The DM is pretty smart and once I rock and roll with a few OA’s in combat it is fair to say that most of the critters we fight are going to be shifting, teleporting etc. to avoid getting smacked with assassins finesse and the yakuza level 5 ability by provoking my OA’s.  If and when that happens I will probably retrain to skulker of vhaerun for a bit of debuffing to help out since I am most likely to be hidden in the combats.


 


I could very well be missing another way to generate OA’s and if that is the case I would be grateful for any insight you guys can offer.


 


At paragon is it worth taking versatile duelist and HBO to try and deliver at-wills as OAs?   Probably depends on how frequently I can arrange to deliver them.  If it is happening frequently enough to take those 2 feats and I used sly flourish for OA’s would I get my charisma bonus twice to the attack?

The DM is pretty smart and once I rock and roll with a few OA’s in combat it is fair to say that most of the critters we fight are going to be shifting, teleporting etc. to avoid getting smacked with assassins finesse and the yakuza level 5 ability by provoking my OA’s.  If and when that happens I will probably retrain to skulker of vhaerun for a bit of debuffing to help out since I am most likely to be hidden in the combats.

The idea is that since you're hidden, the monsters won't know when or where to shift to get away from you. They don't see anyone around, so they start to move and then you nail them with an OA from out of nowhere.

It's not a matter of DM intelligence or monster intelligence. The DM really has no choice unless he wants to basically cheat by metagaming because he knows where your mini is.  Of course to really get this to work you have to hide and then move and hide again, because the first time you hide after being visible, monsters can be expected to remember the last square you were in before you disappeared.

Since you're drow, Cloud of Darkness is pretty good for this too, especially with something like Darkjumper (which I like to combo with Far Shadow). Hide > CoD > teleport to an unknown square in CoD. The enemies don't know you're in the cloud with them, and when they try to move out, you can OA them. If you're DM tries to shift them out, ask why they suddenly decided to shift when they last saw you 10 squares away and have no reason to think you might be right beside them. The build really isn't worth focusing on if the DM is just going to metagame his way out of things.


As for HBO, you don't want it with an executioner because 1) you have a decent MBA already and 2) you can't add your executioner damage bonus with HBO because it's not a basic attack (it's used instead of a basic attack). In this case you can toss Versatile Duelist and go back to light blades with all their great support.
But to answer your question, yes you'd get CHA mod twice on an OA with Yakuza and Sly Flourish used with HBO. It's just not as good as executioner bonus + CHA from an MBA.
ok here is the build I put together up to level 11.  No magic items included, we are using inherent bonuses so won't be able to plan on what will be getting.

Basically the idea is ranged debuffs (penalties to hit) from poisons, rattling, go for the eyes, etc.  While still doing good damage from sneak attack.  Yakuza gets +Cha to dmg on OA's but I think this is bringing a bit more utility to the table.  Instead of being in melee, delivering the OA and then not having a way to restealth consistantly (that I know of).

Let me know what you think.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
11, level 11
Drow, Assassin (Executioner)/Rogue, Champion of the Vigil
Guild Attacks (Hybrid) Option: League of Whispers (Hybrid)
Hybrid Assassin (Executioner) Option: Hybrid Executioner Will
Pact Initiate Option: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Hybrid Talent Option: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid) Option: Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Inherent Bonuses, Circle of Smoke and Whispers
Unseelie Agent (+2 to Stealth)
Theme: Skulker of Vhaeraun

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 15, DEX 22, INT 9, WIS 11, CHA 19

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 17, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15


AC: 25 Fort: 19 Ref: 24 Will: 22
HP: 77 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +18, Bluff +14, Insight +10, Intimidate +16, Stealth +22, Thievery +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Athletics +5, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +7, Heal +5, History +4, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Streetwise +9

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Skulker of Vhaeraun Utility: Skulker's Venom
Drow Racial Power: Cloud of Darkness
Assassin Attack: Quick Shot
Assassin Attack: Precision Dart
Assassin Attack: Assassin's Strike
: Swap Daily For Poison Recipe
Rogue Attack 1: Sly Flourish
Warlock Attack 1: Eyebite
Assassin Utility 2: Shadowed Legion
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Rogue Attack 5: Go for the Eyes
Assassin Attack 5: Heart of Dust
Drow Utility 6: Vanish from View
Rogue Attack 7: Snap Shot
Rogue Utility 10: Executioner's Mien
Champion of the Vigil Attack 11: Remain Elusive

FEATS
Level 1: Pact Initiate
Level 2: Cursed Shadow
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Ruthless Hunter
Level 8: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 10: Two-Fisted Shooter
Level 11: Steady Shooter

ITEMS
Ki Focus
Dagger
Short sword
Leather Armor x1
Adventurer's Kit
Rod Implement
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice
Wrist razors x1
Blowgun
Blowgun Needles
Crossbow Bolt
Hand crossbow x1
====== End ======

What would you actually be attacking with? Or is the plan to be constantly switching?
Note the ki focus, the blowgun and the crossbow for ranged, the dagger and short sword for melee.


Low slash is a melee power.   


I do not think a crossbow allows you to use sneak attack on an attack, I prefer Smoke Bomb and Vanish fro U2 and U6. Most importantly at the U2, you do not want the rest of the party hiding as well, that is not in your characters interest.


In all the build comes accross as unfocused. Main thing I do not understand, after all the investment of feats, how are you better off than a regular Drow Cunning Sneak Rogue.

Shadow Walk does not seem worth the 2 feats, and in all it seems you're so focused on hindering the enemy in some way it seems you're forgetting the most important of all:"dead is the best condition for enemies".


Compare this with a straight up rogue, one that first goes to pick up backstabber, crossbow expertise and perhaps later ruthless hunter and improved cunning.   

     

In all the build comes accross as unfocused. Main thing I do not understand, after all the investment of feats, how are you better off than a regular Drow Cunning Sneak Rogue.

Shadow Walk does not seem worth the 2 feats, and in all it seems you're so focused on hindering the enemy in some way it seems you're forgetting the most important of all:"dead is the best condition for enemies".


Compare this with a straight up rogue, one that first goes to pick up backstabber, crossbow expertise and perhaps later ruthless hunter and improved cunning.   

     



It's a permahidden build, something a regular Rogue can't do reliably. Also, you can use sneak attack just fine with a crossbow.

That being said, I agree that the OP needs to refine the focus of the character's powers - maybe start with the Rogue handbook and check out the Permahidden section under Advanced Optimization for more help:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
.. Also, you can use sneak attack just fine with a crossbow.




I meant the attack finesse additional 1/d8 per tier. As far as I am concerned the main reason to be hybrid executioner to begin with.  

.. Also, you can use sneak attack just fine with a crossbow.




I meant the attack finesse additional 1/d8 per tier. As far as I am concerned the main reason to be hybrid executioner to begin with.  



ATTACK FINESSE (EXECUTIONER)
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your melee basic attacks.
    In addition, once per turn you can deal 1d8 extra damage with a weapon attack using a one-handed weapon, a garrote, a blowgun, or a shortbow. The extra damage increases to 2d8 at 11th level and 3d8 at 21st level.

Hand crossbow is one-handed, even if you normally need a hand free to reload it.

                Sorry the build looks unfocused, it could have used better explanation.  The idea for the build is that it is a mix between a dark elf assassin from Warhammer and Corvo Attano from the Dishonored videogame.  My nerddom knows no bounds!


                The plan is to use x2 hand crossbows pretty much all the time with wrist razors equipped incase I find myself in melee I have something to use an OA with.  Hand crossbows do allow sneak attacks, I did not list a normal crossbow on the above build.  Maybe I am misinterpreting the wrist razor rules?  Can I have those on an arm slot and still use both hands for weapons?


                I should probably drop low slash.  I had it in there just for another minor action attack.  Maybe I should drop it for fleeting spirit strike?


                in regards to utility I think I will take your advice on smoke bomb, out of turn movement will be handy for this build.  I do think I still prefer vanish from view though for the U6, chance to mitigate an attack fully seems nice. 


                the two feats to pick up shadow walk are so that I have concealment at almost all times, alongside cunning sneak it means I can roll stealth checks just for moving 3 squares to become hidden all the time.  Instead of trying to manufacture combat advantage in other ways this build does it simply through movement. 


                if the debuff stuff does not work out it will not be difficult to switch over to a more damage oriented build by retraining into bloodbath or compel the craven.  Debuffing is my initial reaction because our group lacks a controller or hard defender at the moment and it seems like it would be handy, if the damage is more needed I can look at that.  Backstabber is nice, I want to find room for it but I am liking the look of perma stealth by level 4.  If I find a lot of opponents are getting cover against me then I can switch to xbow expertise instead of ki focus expertise.  But I prefer Ki focus expertise on paper at the moment  for the versatility in the case that I end up in melee for some reason.


                Honestly I am not in love with Heart of Dust other than from a distributing poison damage to trigger the Skulker level 10 feature.  Nothing else jumped out at me as a great alternative though.

  the two feats to pick up shadow walk are so that I have concealment at almost all times, alongside cunning sneak it means I can roll stealth checks just for moving 3 squares to become hidden all the time.  Instead of trying to manufacture combat advantage in other ways this build does it simply through movement. 




True enough, but straight up cunning sneak already allows stealth checks after 3 squares of movement, and many rogue powers allow movement as part of the attack.   
  the two feats to pick up shadow walk are so that I have concealment at almost all times, alongside cunning sneak it means I can roll stealth checks just for moving 3 squares to become hidden all the time.  Instead of trying to manufacture combat advantage in other ways this build does it simply through movement. 




True enough, but straight up cunning sneak already allows stealth checks after 3 squares of movement, and many rogue powers allow movement as part of the attack.   



Only if you have concealment, which a regular Rogue needs another element to get (this is where shadow walk comes in). Some combo of Rogue/Warlock/Assassin is the easiest way to achieve what he's looking for. Seriously, if you don't know how the permahidden archetype plays, please stop trying to give advice on it.
I believe baldie's only point (also, need need to be an ass Narflem), is that perma concealment is silly, and he seems to be wasting class features. Which is true.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I guess i don't understand what is silly about permastealth?  Seems like a solid way to not get hit and get combat advantage.

What class features do yo u feel are wasted?  Attack Finnesse?  If that is the case, do you think assassin is a better fit than executioner?  Executioner seems to be better for the most part for this build unless I am missing something.

Its only solid if the rest of your party is built for it. Sounds great in a vacuum, often horrenous at table play (I've personally seen 5 work horribly, 1 result in numerous player deaths, numerous times, and 1 work meh). Also, if you're wasting Attack Finnesse, you're basically wasting the entire half of the Hybrid. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I was mistaken about the attack finesse, since it stated the short bow explicitly, I sort of assumed the crossbow would be excluded. Should have read it more carefully. I still think you should get backstabber in there ASAP, and I think you are wasting a lot of feats on something not very useful.
 

My point, which I probably should have stated more explicitly is that this character will be a drain on party resources.


Your PC will be the reason there are more monsters on the field

Said monster will not attack you, since they wouldn't know where the start

The other PCs take more damage from the already mentioned additional monsters


You do not deal enough damage quick enough to mitigate this.


short version: Perma stealth is good for video games, not for team play. This is my personal opinion, but apparently shared by Naflem.
I believe baldie's only point (also, need need to be an ass Narflem), is that perma concealment is silly, and he seems to be wasting class features. Which is true.



@Zelink
That was nowhere in his posts - if that's what he's trying to get at he should just say that (because that actually carries weight). 

@Lellindil
Stealth builds are frowned upon because they put more strain on the rest of the party, for not much benefit. By removing yourself from the board, you are ensuring that more attacks are going towards your teammates (everyone gets hps and surges, so everyone should be using them).  
Ok fair enough.  Didn't really consider that when I built the character to be honest.  

I know it strays from the striker role a bit but do the attack penalties this build can throw around help at all or do you feel like fast damage is the only way to make it work?

I am going to probably end up giving it a shot, if it is disruptive I will end up changing the character significantly to be more useful but right now I like the concept enough to try it.

 
Narflem-We typically assume a general level of knowledge, except from Newbies, to whom we explain ourselves. So buck up kid.

Lellindil-In a low Op game, it works fine. However the general assumption is a game where resource drain is at least moderate, and a savvy DM. A savvy DM won't ever target you, but you're adding monsters to the board (in theory). So your allies are getting attacked more (more monsters), but you wont take damage (they can't attack you). So it can quickly lead to TPKs.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

I know it strays from the striker role a bit but do the attack penalties this build can throw around help at all or do you feel like fast damage is the only way to make it work?

 




How many targets at the same time will suffer these attack penalties, vs how many extra monsters will the DM throw up on the board ?  
the attack penalties are probably only really going to effect one opponent.  I have no idea how many monsters will be on team bad guy per PC though.

It is a 5 player party (including myself).

We will see how it goes.  I made a few changes to the build based on your guys suggestions but it seems that the real point of contention is on whether to hide or not.

aside from the imagery, the reason I looked at the permastealth stuff is because the rogue seemed pretty fragile and wanted to find a way to protect the character that didn't rely on trying to jack up defenses.

the problem that is being presented seems to be that while a monster will swing and miss at a character with high defenses, they will just attack someone else in the case of a stealth build.  Which swings the action economy in the favor of team bad guy.

Like I said earlier if it gets ugly or disruptive to the game I will change the build to something else. 
You certainly seem to see what we're saying, so you're openmindedness is good. Play it, see how it is, how it works with the party, and adapt. Its what good players do
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
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