Damage reduction

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Quick question on damage reduction if you have damage reduction 1/- from a barbarian and you get a damage reduction 2/-  from say the anointed knight or something like that do the add together or no and if not the question is why I understand that if they came from the same source they get over lapped like if you continue in barbarian and get the 2/- but from different sources I would think they stack ? except the ones that come from armor like adamantine
Unless the source of at least one specifically says otherwise, they overlap, they do not stack.
As mentioned unless it is specifically stated otherwise damage reduction do not stack.  This does mean that if you have DR1/- from Barbarian and then get DR2/- from some other source you will only be using the DR2/-.  DR from different sources will never stack although you may find some things that will improve an existing source of DR that you possess.

DR1/- and DR2/- do not stack just like DR1/- and DR5/magic would not stack.  You only get to use the biggest DR value that applies.  Although this is oversimplifying things you can think of DR as protecting something vital and of course everything is going to start with the same protected areas.

I will admit that when it comes to class granted DR there are times I believe it should stack up.  This is most true for PrCs where a character following a "normal" entry into it is likely to get DR from the entry classes.  Of course these are also the cases you are most likely see that will improve existing DR or give you a new DR if you do not otherwise have any.
 
Out of curiosity, I once had a character with DR 3/- & 15/evil. I know that doesn't mean I had DR 18, but if someone used an evil-aligned weapon, my DR 3 still applied, right?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
That is my take draco, they overlap so if they get past the DR 15 Evil, you would still have the DR 3.
Correct Draco.

If it had been 3/bludgeoning, and 15/evil, and the attacker had an evil sword, you'd also still get your 3. 
I was thinking that but I jus had to make sure it just make no sense what so ever that they do not stack in my books But that is the rule. See because the idea I had come to me was to take barbarian get the 1/- DR then take druid get wild shape so I could go into natures warrior then takt the anointed knight if I could swing it with the DM but then I realized that would not work one bit. ad the barbarian has to be chaotic the druid has to be neutral and the knight has to be good so there is no way I could have all three of them so that is a bust.


Now still on the damage reduction is that a reduction on the total amount of damage or on each dice. I would say it is each dice and here is why. If you have a weapon that dose 1D6 damage and the total is 6 you take only 3 damage so 50% of the damage. now if you have a weapon that dose 2D6 ( great sword) and the total damage is 12 and you only take 3 away that is a total of 25% of the damage The math just dose not add up you know what I mean different STR damage can make sense ok you lose 3 from the total damage ok I can get that one but if you have to role a dice for the points in damage It should be on each dice not the total amount


Although we are on the subject of Damge Reduction (DR) I'll just take a moment to mention that Eneregy Resistance is a different thing.  If you struck a creature with a +1 flaming morningstar you would have 1d8+1 point of magical bludgeoning AND piercing damage plus 1d6 points of fire damage.  Now if that struck a creature with DR10/silver all of the base damage (1d8+1) will be stopped BUT the fire damage from the flaming ability will get through.  If the creature struck has DR10/magic and bludgeoning along with Resist Fire 10 it will take the full base damage as the attack is dealing magic (one condition) AND bludgeoning (the other condition) damage but here the 1d6 fire damage will be prevented by the Fire Resistance.

I do not believe that the various levels of energy resistance, such as Reist Fire 10 and Resist Fire 20, will stack into a single resistance, Resist Fire 30 here, so you can only use the highest.  An exception here is when you have things that reduce damage by a percentage (often half) which can be combined with energy resistance and can be done in the most beneficial way.  A creature that only takes half damage from fire and has Resist Fire 10 and gets hit by a fire attack with 50 for rolled damage (after saves) would only take 15 points of fire damage and the first effect reduces the 50 to 25 and then the resistance takes off 10 points more.  I am a little les sure about vulnerability effects (taking double damage from an energy type) but believe you can apply the modifiers in what ever order you like.  If that 50 fire damage instead hits a "Cold" type creature that takes double damage from fire but it has Resist Fire 20 through some means it only needs to take 60 points of damage; starting with the 50 the reistance drops that to 30 before the vulnerability will double that value up to 60.
 
I was thinking that but I jus had to make sure it just make no sense what so ever that they do not stack in my books But that is the rule. See because the idea I had come to me was to take barbarian get the 1/- DR then take druid get wild shape so I could go into natures warrior then takt the anointed knight if I could swing it with the DM but then I realized that would not work one bit. ad the barbarian has to be chaotic the druid has to be neutral and the knight has to be good so there is no way I could have all three of them so that is a bust.

Although it may still be challenging you should re-evaluate the alignment restrictions.  Barbarians can not be lawful.  Druids must be partially neutral, and you say the Anointed Knight needs to be good.  That means a NG character can fill all of those requirements.


Now still on the damage reduction is that a reduction on the total amount of damage or on each dice. I would say it is each dice and here is why. If you have a weapon that dose 1D6 damage and the total is 6 you take only 3 damage so 50% of the damage. now if you have a weapon that dose 2D6 ( great sword) and the total damage is 12 and you only take 3 away that is a total of 25% of the damage The math just dose not add up you know what I mean different STR damage can make sense ok you lose 3 from the total damage ok I can get that one but if you have to role a dice for the points in damage It should be on each dice not the total amount .


Damage Reduction is on the TOTAL amount.  It most certainly is NOT on each die of damage.  If you have DR 3/- and I hit you with a Greatsword (2d6) and my friend hits you with a Great Axe (1d12) and we each roll 7 damage you will take 4 points of damage from each of us.  If it was "per die" you're telling me you would only take 1 point of damage from my Greatsword because I have the misfortune of rolling more, but smaller, dice when it comes to my damage?  If you consider the law of averages your DR3/- would make you immune to a damaging attack that did 10d4 damage if it applied on a per die basis.

Damage Reduction reduces the damage you take by a fixed number.  A bigger weapon deals more damage so your resistance stops LESS of it as a percentage of the whole.  DR is great at avoiding "nuisance" damage but isn't so effective at stopping big hits.  This is part of the reason you see bigger DR values on certain things although they aren't as high in 3.5 as they were in 3.0.  In 3.5 you see more DR/this and that where this and that are often two things that you don't commonly see together (silver and piercing for example) but the DR is set low enough that a big hitter can still be getting through.  A "problem" in 3.0 was that DR got so high (say DR 30/+3) that either DR was ignored completely (by a +3 weapon in this case) or completely shut down the attacker; the 3.5 correction was to make it harder to overcome a lot of DR so it would actually be useful but also bring down the values so a heavy hitter can still cause damage.

If you are looking for something that offers "percentage" damage reduction you should look for invisibility/concealment type effects that offer a "miss chance" instead.  While not the same as DR there is a chance that any given hit will miss completely no matter if it would have been for 1 or 100 points of damage.  With DR that 1 point it is ignored but most of that 100 point hit gets through but witha miss chance you see the same percentage decrease in damage across all damage ranges. 
Even the smaller DR adds up, though. I survived quite a few fights because of that DR 3/-. Remember; it's on EVERY attack that deals non-magical HP damage. And even a few magic/psionic ones like Crystal Shards or Ice Axe.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Draco, I'd be careful about the terms used when describing what DR stops.  It stops damage from physical sources; namely those that can be classified as slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning/crushing.  It does NOT prevent damage from energy types, like a non-magial fire, nor does it stop raw damage that doesn't have a type (note that most non-magical damage has some kind of type although you may need to do some looking to find it.)

Now despite the terms used even low levels of DR can make a difference over time.  As draco mentions it is used against every attack so if you're facing a lot of low damage attacks it will make a huge difference.  I'd also say that if a PC has DR I may include situations where a group is subject to constant, low level damage which having DR could negate.
I figure I've lurked long enough, and it's time to finally contribute...

We ran into some DR questions in our last battle, so it's still pretty fresh on my mind.  The only things that bypass DR: X/- are "spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire)".  This is per the DMG, page  292.

This really is useful against lots of low damage attacks, as StevenO pointed out.  Being barraged by a bunch of kobolds with slings won't bother the guy with DR: 3/- much at all, unless they pull out some special ammunition.  Being barraged by kobolds throwing flasks of oil might just ruin his day, though...
Different question but on the topic of damage reduction so I didn't want to start a new thread.

My Dread Necro has his DR 2/magic & bludgeoning
Now, that means that if he gets hit by a non-magical mace then his DR still applies, correct?

And my other question is,
does getting constricted count as bludgeoning damage? Obviously, its crushing, but seeing as "crushing" doesn't have its own specific category, would it come under bludgeoning?

Constrict


A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

-----

If you are exactly perfect about your typing, and it is "/magic & bludgeoning" as opposed to "/magic or bludgeoning", You are correct. That simple &/or is the very exacting operative syntax. 

A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction. (This is "or")

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction. (This is "&")
 

 


Constrict


A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
 




Thanks. Very clear.
Actual examples of Neue's &/or answer:
The Rakshasa has DR /good AND piercing. This is a legacy of only being killed by blessed crossbow bolts in 2E. A good-aligned piercing weapon will always bypass this DR, whether it's a "combination" damage type weapon like the morningstar, melee piercing only like a pick, or ranged like an arrow.
The other example is the armor enhancement "Axeblock" in the MIC. It offers DR /piercing or bludgeoning (since it's meant to block slashing weapons, like axes). This can be overcome by any weapon that is either one, so a non-magical club would be unaffected, while a paladin's Holy Avenger would.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Isn't it nice when we can actually all agree on how things work?

I will mention that using 3.5 DR you almost always need the specified property to overcome the listed DR.  In 3.0 something with DR/silver could also be overcome by a magic weapon (maybe in needed be more the +1 for some materials but still) but in 3.5 that was no longer true.  The "exception" is that an "epic" weapon overcomes "magic" DR but that should be obvious as DR/epic normally takes a +6 enhancment bonus to overcome while DR/magic just takes a +1 enhancement bonus.

If you see a DRX/bludegoning AND piercing in 3.5 it takes both of those to overcome it (which limits weapons to a morningstar as most do "or" with damage although I believe a creature's bite attack actually counts as all three damage types at the same time.)  If you see DRX/bludegoning OR piercing it will only protect against slashing weapon.  For an extreme something with DR/slashing and bludgeoning and piercing almost always has DR apply (I think a bite gets overcomes it) but something with DR/slashing or bludgeoning or piercing is worthless for protection as everything will get through.
 
Well, this all looks sorted out before I could get to it.

What I can add is that if you want something that stops absolutely everything (unless the effect specifically bypasses it), you need Hardness, which is harder to get than simple DR. (The easiest way I know of to make use of hardness regularly is the Share Pain + Psicrystal trick: although the damage from Share Pain is untyped and magical, it is still blocked by hardness. There's probably a spell or two that give hardness as well, although I can't think of any offhand.) It's not unbeatable - psionic sonic attacks and several Tome of Battle strikes expressly ignore hardness, and if you can't get hardness up to 20 or higher, so will adamantine weapons - but it is a much better protection than DR.

(Note that the stuff on energy types doing fractional damage to objects won't matter if you've got hardness some other way - the fractions are a property of blasting an object, not a property of the hardness itself.)


Another alternative, although somewhat trickier in how it works, is temporary HP. These can hypothetically block big hits as well as little ones, but once they're used they get depleted. Functionally, though, it reduces the amount of damage being applied to your real HP. However, they cannot be bypassed by any means I know: if you've got temp HP remaining after an attack hits you, you're not losing normal HP, and there's no spells that ignore temporary HP the way there are effects that bypass DR. If you can't get DR but can get temporary HP, in several circumstanfces, temp HP will do in a pinch.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Quick question on damage reduction if you have damage reduction 1/- from a barbarian and you get a damage reduction 2/-  from say the anointed knight or something like that do the add together or no and if not the question is why I understand that if they came from the same source they get over lapped like if you continue in barbarian and get the 2/- but from different sources I would think they stack ? except the ones that come from armor like adamantine

you use your better DR for each attack but only one.

as example a creature with DR 1/- and DR 5/ Magic

Take the DR 1/- while the DR 5 fail but he only can use one at time, again a non magical weapon you can use your DR 5/magic but not your DR 1/-.

in this case because both have the same based then not stack :s and you going to use always the DR 2/-

Other class of DR exist like Magic and Silver, Magic and Cold Iron, ect.
this work like the others but you need the both condition to overcome it.

Limited exceptions
exist but must be defined in the ability it gives the DR
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.