Peach: Level 8 Fighters

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We play a campaign with mostly unique magic items, so my build doesn't rely on any snazzy combos. Getting into the game, he should be able to snag +2 armor/neck slot items pretty easily and hopefully a +2 sweapon but those tend to be harder to come by.

Our game is a bit unusual and their is a lot of fluidity in what charatcers are on the table at a given time, so multiple slots can be open and I am showing two builds, each one designed to fit a different spot in the group if the need arises.


This is the first guy. I'm pretty happy with his power selection, though feats could probably be better. We do a good bit out of combat so Practice Study gives me better usage in that area than most Fighters get. He is entirely about hard control and is meant to replace the primary defender, should he fall. He has a number of dazing powers, can drop some decent penalties, and has a mass mark.


Here he is
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Git Sum, level 8
Human, Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: One-handed Weapon Talent
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Goblin Foe (Perception class skill)
Theme: Gloomwrought Emissary
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 16, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 8
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 23 Fort: 22 Ref: 17 Will: 21
HP: 73 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 21
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +12, Endurance +10, Intimidate +8, Perception +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Nature +6, Religion +4, Stealth +2, Streetwise +5, Thievery +2
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Gloomwrought Emissary Attack: Strike from the Shadows
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter Attack 1: Threatening Rush
Fighter Attack 1: Bell Ringer
Fighter Attack 1: Driving Attack
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter Attack 3: Blinding Smash
Fighter Attack 5: Pinning Smash
Fighter Utility 6: Kirre's Roar
Fighter Attack 7: Bloody the Field
 
FEATS
Level 1: Encouraging Shield
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Practiced Study
Level 4: Durable
Level 6: Superior Will
Level 8: Swift Recovery
 
ITEMS
Decipher Script
Thorough Search
Temporary Fix
Scale Armor x1
Heavy Shield x1
Longsword x1
====== End ======



The second guy is a Slayer, with Surprising Charge and a Gouge. A pretty straightforward striker meant to step in if we get another defender and a striker falls. I obviously went Dex-based with him because I wanted to have a decent Thievery which the group doesn't have at all. Stil taking Practiced Study.

Slayer
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Git Sum, level 8
Human, Fighter (Slayer)
Slayer Weapon Specialization Option: Brutal Axe
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Early Life - Imprisoned (Thievery class skill)
Theme: Noble
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 16, DEX 22, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 10
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 10
 
 
AC: 25 Fort: 20 Ref: 21 Will: 15
HP: 73 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 18
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +8, Endurance +11, Heal +9, Streetwise +9, Thievery +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Arcana +3, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +4, History +3, Insight +4, Intimidate +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +3, Stealth +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Utility: Noble Presence
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility: Berserker's Charge
Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault
Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade
Monk Feature: Iron Soul Flurry of Blows
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Thievery Utility 6: Hasty Retreat
 
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)
Level 1: Melee Training (Dexterity)
Level 2: Surprising Charge
Level 4: Cunning Stalker
Level 6: Monastic Disciple
Level 8: Practiced Study
 
ITEMS
Gouge x1
Ki Focus x1
Decipher Script
Thorough Search
Magic Hide Armor +2 x1
====== End ======


I am open to thoughts and discussion. Fighter is not a class I have much on-table experience with so I don't know if I'm missing some obvious avenues.

Thanks to the guys who wrote the handbooks who help me parse some stuff out!
You looked at the handbooks? Your encounter powers are Red, Red, and Purple. Generally because they don't do significant damage compared to the effects they hand out. If there's a reason your build is going to need Durable/Swift Recovery is that you're not helping take down your opponents fast enough.

I know there are a lot of Fighters with Come and Get It, but there are reasons for that - you grab every nearby opponent and whack them. If you have Rain of Steel going or you spend an Action Point for Sweeping Blow, there is likely at least 3 opponents really unhappy about you. I'd really take a second look at LDB's Fighter Handbook for encounter attack power choice. Don't worry about temp hit points - dead opponents don't hit back.

Stats: with such a build, I'd go 16, 14, 14, 13 and put 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, 14 in Wis, and 13 in Con. Then put your bumps into Wisdom. You have Intimidate as a skill, so I'd put your 8 in Int, your 10 in Cha. Go with Rapier over Longsword - Light Blade Expertise gives an easily obtained damage bump. The bump in Dex will also mean that Kirre's Roar is better.

I'd get rid of Durable, Encouraging Shield, and Swift Recovery and replace them with the following:
An MC feat(Practiced Killer, Sneak of Shadows, or Warrior of the Wild) - not only does this get you a damage bump, but it also gets you an extra skill for a game that does a fair bit out of combat.
Improved Initiative - go first, do Come And Get It, and force opponents to deal with you rather than react to whatever tactics they decided to use. This will shorten combats significantly.
Deadly Draw - you have Footwork Lure, which is a slide, so that will trigger this. With Come And Get It, this will get you CA a lot

I'm by no means saying you have to get Come And Get It, but you basically have a Fighter who creates issues for his party because he really just delays his opponent instead of setting up the party strikers to take out the wounded opponents.

The Slayer is pretty good and straightforward.
You looked at the handbooks? Your encounter powers are Red, Red, and Purple. Generally because they don't do significant damage compared to the effects they hand out. If there's a reason your build is going to need Durable/Swift Recovery is that you're not helping take down your opponents fast enough.

I know there are a lot of Fighters with Come and Get It, but there are reasons for that - you grab every nearby opponent and whack them. If you have Rain of Steel going or you spend an Action Point for Sweeping Blow, there is likely at least 3 opponents really unhappy about you. I'd really take a second look at LDB's Fighter Handbook for encounter attack power choice. Don't worry about temp hit points - dead opponents don't hit back.

Stats: with such a build, I'd go 16, 14, 14, 13 and put 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, 14 in Wis, and 13 in Con. Then put your bumps into Wisdom. You have Intimidate as a skill, so I'd put your 8 in Int, your 10 in Cha. Go with Rapier over Longsword - Light Blade Expertise gives an easily obtained damage bump. The bump in Dex will also mean that Kirre's Roar is better.

I'd get rid of Durable, Encouraging Shield, and Swift Recovery and replace them with the following:
An MC feat(Practiced Killer, Sneak of Shadows, or Warrior of the Wild) - not only does this get you a damage bump, but it also gets you an extra skill for a game that does a fair bit out of combat.
Improved Initiative - go first, do Come And Get It, and force opponents to deal with you rather than react to whatever tactics they decided to use. This will shorten combats significantly.
Deadly Draw - you have Footwork Lure, which is a slide, so that will trigger this. With Come And Get It, this will get you CA a lot

I'm by no means saying you have to get Come And Get It, but you basically have a Fighter who creates issues for his party because he really just delays his opponent instead of setting up the party strikers to take out the wounded opponents.

The Slayer is pretty good and straightforward.



I took some of your points into consideration.

I will admit, not all of them. We play a game that has some pretty ridiculously tough enemies and the ability to lock them down with a daze can be the difference between life and death.

I picked up Come and Get It. I adjusted my stats based on your recommendations and adjusted a few feats dropping Swift Recovery and switching out HBE for LBE and snagged a rapier.

I appreciate the response and hope you're not offended that I'm not taking them all to heart. When you have an enemy who can double attack and put down 60-80dmg at level 8, we like to keep them dazed as much as possible!
For Fighter:
Battlerager > One-Handed Weapon talent
for a sword and board build.

For Slayer:
Since you are human, consider changing Heroic Feat to Footwork Lure (At-Will) for some prety sweet gouge reach tricks. If done right, you'll be able to keep the baddie 1 square away, or charge every turn.

Unless you want you slayer to double as a defender...Then pick up Threatening Rush instead of Footwork Lure.
Footwork Lure is Str based.


I would however recommend Ignore Weakness at level 6, seems you might need it if this game is so brutal  
A few basic ideas on the Slayer. Nothing groundbreaking here, but some things you may not have thought of...


Consider Heroic Effort over the extra stance

Consider going 18,13,13 and put the other 13 in either Wis or Cha. Put both stat bumps into it and you can take Superior Will at lvl 10.

Consider Glowering Threat at 2U, remember it stacks with the actual defender's mark so it does some silly things (-5 to hit the defender and not get punished, -2 to hit you but he gets punished, -7 to hit everyone else and still gets punished). 


FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
For Fighter:
Battlerager > One-Handed Weapon talent
for a sword and board build.



No. Especially for a Human who doesn't have the luxury of adding that extra Con, a +1 to hit will always be useful without having to select Invigorating powers or use lighter armor to take advantage of Battlerager.

Footwork Lure is Str based. 

 

Not sure what you are trying to say here.
Not a big fan of Glowering Threat in combination with a tactic that forces you to be in a monsters face already.
Not a big fan of Glowering Threat in combination with a tactic that forces you to be in a monsters face already.



Glowering Threat is amazing for all Fighters, who are always already "in a monsters face" anyway. If both teammates and enemies are in melee , Glowering Threat is telling enemies "you won't be hitting anyone but me this turn".
I'm nowhere near as experienced as the regulars on this forum, so you may have to take all this with a grain of salt. Even so, there are a couple of things I want to say about the slayer.

First off, you don't have an expertise feat. You want either Spear- och Two-handed Weapon for the increased charge damage.

Secondly, I think you could do much better on Background and Theme. Your background gives Thievery training, but you get that from MC Monk anyway, so I suggest switching one of them out. Born Under a Bad Sign is a great background. I don't like the Noble theme either. The starting power costs your move action, which is awkward, and you likely won't have any use for the skill bumps. I suggest Pack Outcast as a replacement so that you never need to worry about CA again, which also frees up a feat slot as you don't need Cunning Stalker.

I'm not really a fan of your utility powers. Iron Resurgence is alright since there aren't a lot of other great powers at that level, but I would never pick Hasty Retreat over some of the great alternatives at that level. Ignore Weakness will get you out of situations where you would be unable to attack and certain gradual effects (like slow->immobilized->petrified), so that's the one I would go for. Remember that if you're prepared to use Heroic Effort, Ignore Weakness will always succeed.

If you want to keep Practiced Study, I suggest picking up Temporary Fix, since it's cheap and very versatile. But consider letting your ritual casting friends take care of it, since there are plenty more rituals than martial practices, and in many cases they are a lot better. If you wanted to, you could even switch the Monk MC skill to Religion and getting Ritual Casting yourself.

Lasty, remember that charge characters depend a lot on their items, which might be a problem in your campaign. Vanguard Weapon, Horned Helm, Badge of the Berserker, Boots of Adept Charging... you want these things.
Not a big fan of Glowering Threat in combination with a tactic that forces you to be in a monsters face already.



Glowering Threat is amazing for all Fighters, who are always already "in a monsters face" anyway. If both teammates and enemies are in melee , Glowering Threat is telling enemies "you won't be hitting anyone but me this turn".



So you have level +16 AC, or whatever that slayer has, and an open invitation to please get focus fired. In my limited experience, that ends badly. But if Bohrdumb wants to go for it, I am certainly not going to try and stop him.



However, Footwork Lure is a bad choice for character that dumped Strength, and took melee training Dex. Not sure, Naflem, what is unclear about that.  

  

Not a big fan of Glowering Threat in combination with a tactic that forces you to be in a monsters face already.



Glowering Threat is amazing for all Fighters, who are always already "in a monsters face" anyway. If both teammates and enemies are in melee , Glowering Threat is telling enemies "you won't be hitting anyone but me this turn".



Glowering Threat is amazing if you have two Defenders or you can't be near one of your marked targets for some reason and want to ensure that the target follows you around.

I think one of the things I'd go for in such a campaign is jiu-jitsu tactics:
Make them unable to attack because they're prone and not next to anyone, but you're two squares away from them - they can't punch you, they can't charge your friends. Polearm Momentum.

They've got awesome damage? Make them use it on themselves or their friends via powers such as Dimensional Vortex, Hypnotism, Drunken Monkey, Friendly Fire, etc...

Gain bonuses to defenses that can force misses - Shield Edge Block as an example.
Not a big fan of Glowering Threat in combination with a tactic that forces you to be in a monsters face already.



Glowering Threat is amazing for all Fighters, who are always already "in a monsters face" anyway. If both teammates and enemies are in melee , Glowering Threat is telling enemies "you won't be hitting anyone but me this turn".



So you have level +16 AC, or whatever that slayer has, and an open invitation to please get focus fired. In my limited experience, that ends badly. But if Bohrdumb wants to go for it, I am certainly not going to try and stop him.



However, Footwork Lure is a bad choice for character that dumped Strength, and took melee training Dex. Not sure, Naflem, what is unclear about that.  

  



I didnt see that the Footwork Lure was in reference to the Slayer, not the Fighter. As for Glowering Threat, the Fighter has it and not the Slayer... 

If you are responding to specific posts that are not the OP, it really helps to quote them instead of looking like you are throwing random tidbits into the thread. 
Some suggestions for the fighter. If you are going to stick with some of those powers why not go for a Halberd and shoot for polearm momentum type stuff. You could go with the stat array of 16+2/13/14/8/14/10 and put your stat bumps into STR/WIS @4 and STR/DEX @8. This will qualify you for both Superior Will and Pole-Arm Momentum in heroic and then just concentrate on STR/WIS for the rest of your career.

1) Halberd is a polearm and axe so you could take two-handed weapon expertise for some extra damage on a charge with Threatening rush. 
2) Halberd being an axe will add damge to alot of your powers.
3) If you would like you could also take a 3rd at-will like Weapon Masters Strike. 

I would probably make a lot of changes to the build but these are just some suggestions that can be added into your build to add some effectiveness. Pole-Arm Momentum requires some items to function so not much of a loss.
Looks like the Slayer will be the one that hits the table (we lost 4pcs last night and one of the new ones coming in is a Defender). Now, I'm not going to get any standard charging items, should I consider not making him a charging Slayer and instead maybe go with Cleave/Deft Hurler?
Looks like the Slayer will be the one that hits the table (we lost 4pcs last night and one of the new ones coming in is a Defender). Now, I'm not going to get any standard charging items, should I consider not making him a charging Slayer and instead maybe go with Cleave/Deft Hurler?



This game sounds like it is screaming for you to play a Swordmage|Wizard with Dimensional Vortex, Charm of the Defender and Hypnotism. Your Defender marks the target, the target swings at the Defender, you put the target onto one of its friends. You use Hypnotism to make targets do 40 hp of damage to themselves while triggering the Defender's mark. You have Shield to force targets to miss, hit points, and lots of healing surges.

No item dependency, 20 Int/16 Con.

That might not be ideal from a 'what do you want to play', but if you're losing that number of PCs each game...
Looks like the Slayer will be the one that hits the table (we lost 4pcs last night and one of the new ones coming in is a Defender). Now, I'm not going to get any standard charging items, should I consider not making him a charging Slayer and instead maybe go with Cleave/Deft Hurler?



This game sounds like it is screaming for you to play a Swordmage|Wizard with Dimensional Vortex and Hypnotism. Your Defender marks the target, the target swings at the Defender, you put the target onto one of its friends. You use Hypnotism to make targets do 40 hp of damage to themselves while triggering the Defender's mark. You have Shield to force targets to miss, hit points, and lots of healing surges.

No item dependency, 20 Int/16 Con.

That might not be ideal from a 'what do you want to play', but if you're losing that number of PCs each game... 



We actually had a couple of Wizards in the game, and each and every one of them used Hypnotism, was hilarious when a member of Team Monster used a basic attack to actually tear it's own arm off.

Sadly, we roll random Race\Class so if my Paladin dies, I am up with a Human Fighter. In a perfect world I would build one that could play both Defender and Striker with the ability to switch back and forth as needed but I am just not sure how to do that.

Looks like the Slayer will be the one that hits the table (we lost 4pcs last night and one of the new ones coming in is a Defender). Now, I'm not going to get any standard charging items, should I consider not making him a charging Slayer and instead maybe go with Cleave/Deft Hurler?



This game sounds like it is screaming for you to play a Swordmage|Wizard with Dimensional Vortex and Hypnotism. Your Defender marks the target, the target swings at the Defender, you put the target onto one of its friends. You use Hypnotism to make targets do 40 hp of damage to themselves while triggering the Defender's mark. You have Shield to force targets to miss, hit points, and lots of healing surges.

No item dependency, 20 Int/16 Con.

That might not be ideal from a 'what do you want to play', but if you're losing that number of PCs each game... 



We actually had a couple of Wizards in the game, and each and every one of them used Hypnotism, was hilarious when a member of Team Monster used a basic attack to actually tear it's own arm off.

Sadly, we roll random Race\Class so if my Paladin dies, I am up with a Human Fighter. In a perfect world I would build one that could play both Defender and Striker with the ability to switch back and forth as needed but I am just not sure how to do that.




If any of the Wizards are still alive, I'd play a Fighter who can group up targets via Come And Get It so the Wizard can do Charm of the Defender, putting Team Monster Member next to 3 targets...
I think we are currently: My Human Paladin, an int-based Deva Beserker MCSwordmage, a Dragonborn Barb, a Halfling Rogue, a Sorcerer of some sort, and a Runepriest.

We haven't gotten to see the Halfling Rogue at the table because his previous PC died in the final encounter last session when he got turned to stone and then melted by a burst of acid from a three-headed dracolisk.

At this point the 'Zerker and I will probably each pick up an enemy or two. He has an ac of 32 so he's going to take the big guys while I sweep up the little guys.
Pondering this as a Deft Hurler build:

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Deft Hurler?, level 8
Human, Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Arena Training
Arena Training Option: Arena Training (Bastard sword)
Arena Training Option: Arena Training (Drow long knife)
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 9
 
 
AC: 21 Fort: 23 Ref: 16 Will: 17
HP: 67 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 16
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +9, Heal +11, Intimidate +8, Perception +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +6, History +4, Insight +6, Nature +6, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +5
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter Attack 1: Ruinous Assault
Ranger Attack 1: Hurling Charge
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Fighter Attack 3: Parry and Riposte
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Perception Utility 6: Guided Shot
Fighter Attack 7: Trip Up
 
FEATS
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 1: Practiced Study
Level 2: Deft Hurler Style
Level 4: Quick Draw
Level 6: Two-Blade Warrior
Level 8: Novice Power
 
ITEMS
Bastard sword x1
Drow long knife x1
Scale Armor x1
====== End ======
We play a campaign with mostly unique magic items, so my build doesn't rely on any snazzy combos. Getting into the game, he should be able to snag +2 armor/neck slot items pretty easily and hopefully a +2 sweapon but those tend to be harder to come by ...


?
Does this mean:
No wishlist
Some wishlist
DM is smart and gives most of the basics, but otherwise is No Wishlist
Boons
"Town" has a very small mini-magic-mart
etc
?

If you are allowed to aggressively make up for
a No Wishlist, overall you're down just a feat
slot and a few levels later access.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Basically our item system is full of homebrewed stuff. W are playing a collection of third party, fourthcore adventures all strung up into one massive interconnected dungeon. The loot is plentiful, and powerful, but unpredictable.

One of the PCs had armor with a daily power that gave him six arms and allowed him to make six mbas. I currently have bracers that are + 5 to melee damage rolls and resist 10 melee. Stuff like this awesome, but most ofi it is randam and can't really be built around.  

Superfluous items do end up back at our main camp and incoming PCs can scavenge up some stuff before they join us in the dungeon. So I do have access to a decent +2 Gouge and some +2 scale armor, but that's all I am certain of.

I know we are unorthodox, but we're enjoying. Only 5 more major bosses left! 
That is rather interesting.
The DM is making up for Almost No Wishlist, with some semi-artifact goodies.
Sounds like fun.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

That is rather interesting.
The DM is making up for Almost No Wishlist, with some semi-artifact goodies.
Sounds like fun.



It's probably the most fun I have had a DnD table so far. But it's cutthroat and death saves are prevalent, which I know is not some people's cup of tea. It was quite awesome though when one player tried to crack open a giant crystal and our pixie several squares away from him burst into a fine bloody mist!