Do you think DDN will have it's own online character builder?

And how much do you think it will cost if they do something like it for 5th Edition?
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
Absolutely. The first one was one of the biggest successes of 4e.

The cost is tricky. They will probably do subscription based services again, and it will probably not be too far off its current price.
My two copper.
Absolutely. The first one was one of the biggest successes of 4e.

The cost is tricky. They will probably do subscription based services again, and it will probably not be too far off its current price.



Agreed. DDI is mostly used for the character builder (at least by the subscribers in/around my group), and that is a multi-million dollar source of annual income.
I would personally liked to see off line version as it is better than online in 4E.

They could give "trial" version to everyone up to level 4(only include stuff from PHB), and you would get additional updates with buying books as they would all be with character builder keys. also I wouldn't mind buying software for 100$ if I knew it would be supported by whole D&D 5e duration.
Having to pay for an online character builder would be a deal breaker for me, as I want to continue to use it offline and own it should I decide to stop paying for a subscription. Where I would be willing to pay for online tools is a virutal table top and all the associated utilities that come with it like adventures, maps and tokens.
And how much do you think it will cost if they do something like it for 5th Edition?



So far, I'd hope to say no.  Making and leveling chrs has been so easy, I see no need for one. I can say however that if they do, if it cost money, I won't use it.


"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

The online builder basically killed ddi for me. I hope they go back to allowing for offline use.
If all they offer is a character builder, then it wouldn't be something I would be interested in. If, however, they also have a monster builder, compendium, online table-top, and other such DDI tools, then maybe. I won't be one of the first to buy into it, though. I fell for that in 4E, and it won't be happening again. I'll buy into it when it's actually usable and not just so many promises that eventually lose wind and vanish or become shadows of what they once were.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
Hopefully DDN won't need one. 

The character builder was ESSENTIAL when I played 4e, allowing me to just pick and run without worrying about getting all the numbers right. I don't need one for a basic 3.x game - or even an advanced one, but that's because I have system mastery there. 

However, games such as Microlite and E6 have made me EXPECT not to need software assistance when building characters.   
I, too, would prefer an offline CB. The original cost of the subscription wasn't just for the CB, but for several other tools, as well. Since a good portion of that never materialised, I don't think the current sub price is worth what's left.

But then, as others have said, creating and maintaining a PC in 5e probably won't be so complicated that it near-requires the CB.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

I loathe monthly subs and the way the current builder works probably hurts book sales so my personal pref would be an offline builder that you could "unlock" books in the builder by owning them...the builder it self would choose a random word from the book (ie. page 47, line 4, word 3) to make it so you couldn't just copy the "code" from the back.

This way books will sell MUCH better and no need to worry about a monthly fee, also having to be online to use the builder is a PITA, one because it's slow and two because having 6ish people on a single residential wireless net account is a nightmare both for bandwidth and for people actually being able to keep online.
Actually I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for a character builder, monster builder, adventure builder. I would pay a one time fee for the content. I would also pay for the physical books and use the scratch off code that is in the back to allow downloading of the content online. If someone were to steal the code or whatever, then they could simply require a copy of the receipt emailed to an address, after that proof is shown you could download the content, the next time the thief goes to download an update or new content, their software is disabled for violating the user agreement.

I would pay a monthly fee for a 3D virtual table top that I could find a pick up game and which automated as much of the rules as I chose in the settings menu. In this case they could do a free game up to level 5 or so, just long enough to get people hooked.

Of course I'd much rather have a free to play 3D virtual table top that I could rent or buy minis, adventures, and even DMs from. I would also like to be able to go through a certification and put myself out there to rent as a DM.

The 3D virtual table would have to tie into the content that I own the rights to use, and possibly allow temporary access to any players I have of the same content.

Really if they would simply hand the software side to a competent company, I would be happy...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Actually I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for a character builder, monster builder, adventure builder. I would pay a one time fee for the content. I would also pay for the physical books and use the scratch off code that is in the back to allow downloading of the content online. If someone were to steal the code or whatever, then they could simply require a copy of the receipt emailed to an address, after that proof is shown you could download the content, the next time the thief goes to download an update or new content, their software is disabled for violating the user agreement.



I'd be fine with a purchase of the software but I really am against something as easy as a scratch off to use w/o buying the book...something like a random word find (I'm no prgrammer but I do know my brother could code this in his sleep) within this book itself would make it really easy for an actual legitimate consumer to input but hard to impossible to get without the book. This would require you to be online for the initial downlond but allow it to be an offline program...which aside from the obvious bonuses of being offline (accesability, speed, not costing bandwidth,etc.) it also means that you could still use the program if WOTC dumps it.


I would pay a monthly fee for a 3D virtual table top that I could find a pick up game and which automated as much of the rules as I chose in the settings menu. In this case they could do a free game up to level 5 or so, just long enough to get people hooked.

Of course I'd much rather have a free to play 3D virtual table top that I could rent or buy minis, adventures, and even DMs from. I would also like to be able to go through a certification and put myself out there to rent as a DM.

The 3D virtual table would have to tie into the content that I own the rights to use, and possibly allow temporary access to any players I have of the same content.



This would be really cool good DMs are hard to come by and even if they just pay you in "WOTC Monies" so you can order mini's, dice, books,etc. that would be awesome...also yeah an actual 3D online game table would be awesome...I mean the current fan made ones are awesome but due to copyright can't actuall be integrated with 5th edition if WOTC made one that it would be much more focused on 5e


Really if they would simply hand the software side to a competent company, I would be happy...



I concur except for the fact that the last time they did this the company they handed it too took off with WOTCs money and all the tech and we ended up with the neutered DDi we have today

Actually I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for a character builder, monster builder, adventure builder. I would pay a one time fee for the content. I would also pay for the physical books and use the scratch off code that is in the back to allow downloading of the content online. If someone were to steal the code or whatever, then they could simply require a copy of the receipt emailed to an address, after that proof is shown you could download the content, the next time the thief goes to download an update or new content, their software is disabled for violating the user agreement.



I'd be fine with a purchase of the software but I really am against something as easy as a scratch off to use w/o buying the book...something like a random word find (I'm no prgrammer but I do know my brother could code this in his sleep) within this book itself would make it really easy for an actual legitimate consumer to input but hard to impossible to get without the book. This would require you to be online for the initial downlond but allow it to be an offline program...which aside from the obvious bonuses of being offline (accesability, speed, not costing bandwidth,etc.) it also means that you could still use the program if WOTC dumps it.



This is a misconception of what I was saying and/or not understanding how server side tracking works. If the code is used twice or more, the second use throws up a flag and doesn't allow the download. It then tells the person that put the code in to contact customer support. Customers support (either a website, email, or a phone call) would tell the person to scan and email, upload, or mail a copy of the receipt. After they do that the person that first put the code in would have their content or program disable the first time they go to update or add content. The second person would then be able to download the content.

You would download the data and the app, so it would be offline. Again, you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about here.


I would pay a monthly fee for a 3D virtual table top that I could find a pick up game and which automated as much of the rules as I chose in the settings menu. In this case they could do a free game up to level 5 or so, just long enough to get people hooked.

Of course I'd much rather have a free to play 3D virtual table top that I could rent or buy minis, adventures, and even DMs from. I would also like to be able to go through a certification and put myself out there to rent as a DM.

The 3D virtual table would have to tie into the content that I own the rights to use, and possibly allow temporary access to any players I have of the same content.



This would be really cool good DMs are hard to come by and even if they just pay you in "WOTC Monies" so you can order mini's, dice, books,etc. that would be awesome...also yeah an actual 3D online game table would be awesome...I mean the current fan made ones are awesome but due to copyright can't actuall be integrated with 5th edition if WOTC made one that it would be much more focused on 5e



Yep.


Really if they would simply hand the software side to a competent company, I would be happy...



I concur except for the fact that the last time they did this the company they handed it too took off with WOTCs money and all the tech and we ended up with the neutered DDi we have today




No, they picked an disreputable company because it was cheap and there was a suicide and a bankruptcy involved. If they pick a competent company those kinds of things wouldn't derail a project. That was their bad...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
IMO everything that is currently in DDI should be converted to DDN the first day of release. Ideally the 4E materials will be left up in an archive for subscribers to access if they want to. However I do not see that happening.

On the other hand should DDI become magazines only, I expect the magazine content to be drastically increased and everything to be downloadable on the first of every month. 

This is a misconception of what I was saying and/or not understanding how server side tracking works. If the code is used twice or more, the second use throws up a flag and doesn't allow the download. It then tells the person that put the code in to contact customer support. Customers support (either a website, email, or a phone call) would tell the person to scan and email, upload, or mail a copy of the receipt. After they do that the person that first put the code in would have their content or program disable the first time they go to update or add content. The second person would then be able to download the content.



No I understood you perfectly your way makes it really easy to steal (scratch, write on paper) and a PITA for the legitimate consumer to "prove" they bought it...my way is a PITA to steal and really easy for the legitimate consumer.

IMO everything that is currently in DDI should be converted to DDN the first day of release. Ideally the 4E materials will be left up in an archive for subscribers to access if they want to. However I do not see that happening.



I doubt they will keep the old builder on hand so the consumer friendly thing to do is update it to 4es final state than convert it to an offline program (very easy) and allow subscribers to download it for a few months than dump it. Also drop the copyright on the program itself (not the content ONLY the 4e builder program) so fans can legally modify any bugs etc. out of it

This is a misconception of what I was saying and/or not understanding how server side tracking works. If the code is used twice or more, the second use throws up a flag and doesn't allow the download. It then tells the person that put the code in to contact customer support. Customers support (either a website, email, or a phone call) would tell the person to scan and email, upload, or mail a copy of the receipt. After they do that the person that first put the code in would have their content or program disable the first time they go to update or add content. The second person would then be able to download the content.



No I understood you perfectly your way makes it really easy to steal (scratch, write on paper) and a PITA for the legitimate consumer to "prove" they bought it...my way is a PITA to steal and really easy for the legitimate consumer.



No, you apparently don't. You could 'steal' the code once, but then your software would be disabled the next time you went to update or add another code, stolen or not. Because the records are stored online, not on the users computer. The worst that will happen is someone could steal each book code once, install it on a computer, back up the data. scrub the WotC software from the computer then do it again with a new code each time repeating the process. Then they could take the combined data (assuming its not encrypted in some public key fashion where it can't be re-encrypted on the user side) and put it into the software and be able to use each book as long as they never try to update their software again. They could even distribute it through torrent sites, but that is going to happen anyway. It would however prevent the common thief from stealing it more than once and combined with the public key encryption make it really really hard for anyone to mess with it. Any other method would not do any better. Its simply the best method out there. The whole PITA argument is nonsense. You are going to have the same problems and issues anytime there is a problem with the software regardless of how its implemented, and emailing a picture of a receipt or reading off the receipt number to a phone operator is not that hard...

IMO everything that is currently in DDI should be converted to DDN the first day of release. Ideally the 4E materials will be left up in an archive for subscribers to access if they want to. However I do not see that happening.



I doubt they will keep the old builder on hand so the consumer friendly thing to do is update it to 4es final state than convert it to an offline program (very easy) and allow subscribers to download it for a few months than dump it. Also drop the copyright on the program itself (not the content ONLY the 4e builder program) so fans can legally modify any bugs etc. out of it



"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lokiare I'm not sure why you insist on arguing

Your Way: Requires about 5 seconds and a pen to steal, the consumer who is punished by this theft has to call into cx services and frankly that sucks wait for a hour and get told they don't believe you or w/e..sure say 90% of people have no issues with these calls thats still 10% of customers you pissed off...who could care less that the person who stole got punished

My Way: The only way to get the code is to steal the actual book and run it the through the random word find generator generator, the consumer can't get the stolen book cause it was stolen.

So in short your way inconviences the customer and mine does not how is yours superior (and to clarify what happens too the theif is irrelevant to customer satisfaction)

Do you think DRM is a good idea too cause thats incinviences the customer with some of them bordering on being a virus but is irrelevant to a pirate since he or she can just remove it
I'd take a page from Colleges around the nation that get plenty of their moneys worth. Either A) Shrink Wrap the product, or B) Put a cheap, tear away lable above it. Either way the consumer is protected because he knows if the code might be comprimised, and so do retailers so they can call in the code (if they want) and get it canceled. Both can obviously see that it's been tampered with.

Easy peasy, and no need for a word search.
My two copper.
I'd take a page from Colleges around the nation that get plenty of their moneys worth. Either A) Shrink Wrap the product, or B) Put a cheap, tear away lable above it. Either way the consumer is protected because he knows if the code might be comprimised, and so do retailers so they can call in the code (if they want) and get it canceled. Both can obviously see that it's been tampered with.

Easy peasy, and no need for a word search.



Yeah it's easy but with a word search it CANT be stolen that the idea.

As for your shrink wrapped+covered code...the only way that would work (ignoring my above statement) is if the code applies to an account ie. Failedlegend and isn't just a single use...you know in case I format or buy a new pc or something. Also you would only have to be online to add the update but otherwiose it's offline.

On one hand why is it that I (or the store owner) have to order a new book just to get the code to work properly...on the other hand why is it WOTCs problem that someone stole the code from the shopkeepers storer...why should they have to replace it. A harder to steal method is better for all parties involved except the thief...why is that a bad thing


No, you apparently don't. You could 'steal' the code once, but then your software would be disabled the next time you went to update or add another code, stolen or not. Because the records are stored online, not on the users computer. The worst that will happen is someone could steal each book code once,



no lokiare, worst case is I go to my aunts house for christmas, and she has no wi fi at her house (infact my iphone can bearly get online), I get the new book that came out in November, lets say 'Warrior's of mythic power', then when I get home I have no time to go online, so I wait till the next day. However I have a bad day at work on dec26, and two crying kids when I get home, but before bed I finaly get to read the book.

I love the new mods and class in the book, so come that saterday morning I pull up my character builder and put in the code, I can hardly wait to make my new PC, and then find a game to pay it in. I put in the code and get told to call CS.


I call customer service, wait on hold for a little more then half an hour. I tell them I have a book and the code isn't working. They tell me to send a reciept. I don't have a recipt, it was a gift. So now I need to call my aunt, and ask if she has the recipt. She has a special gift recipt from Barns and Noble, however it only says "RPG BOOK" and a price, and a scan bar.

Now I have to go to my aunt's house, get a recipt, than go to barns and noble with the gift recipt and do an even exchange for the same book, and get a new code.


That might be a deal breaker for me         

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?



No, you apparently don't. You could 'steal' the code once, but then your software would be disabled the next time you went to update or add another code, stolen or not. Because the records are stored online, not on the users computer. The worst that will happen is someone could steal each book code once,



no lokiare, worst case is I go to my aunts house for christmas, and she has no wi fi at her house (infact my iphone can bearly get online), I get the new book that came out in November, lets say 'Warrior's of mythic power', then when I get home I have no time to go online, so I wait till the next day. However I have a bad day at work on dec26, and two crying kids when I get home, but before bed I finaly get to read the book.

I love the new mods and class in the book, so come that saterday morning I pull up my character builder and put in the code, I can hardly wait to make my new PC, and then find a game to pay it in. I put in the code and get told to call CS.


I call customer service, wait on hold for a little more then half an hour. I tell them I have a book and the code isn't working. They tell me to send a reciept. I don't have a recipt, it was a gift. So now I need to call my aunt, and ask if she has the recipt. She has a special gift recipt from Barns and Noble, however it only says "RPG BOOK" and a price, and a scan bar.

Now I have to go to my aunt's house, get a recipt, than go to barns and noble with the gift recipt and do an even exchange for the same book, and get a new code.


That might be a deal breaker for me



Exactly...the word search (or hell anything more secure than a code in the book) will take the consumer about about a minute to do and than boom the book is applied to the relevant account (builder is offline, download requires you to log-in) as for our theif sure he could get it by stealing the book but thats much harder to do than writing down a code and than the stolen book is well that stolen...sucks to be the storekeeper (most likely insured though) but no consumer gets a "faulty" book.

End result: Consumer is Happy, WOTC is Happy, Store Owner is happy (after soome paperwork) and a multi-million $ insurance company is out of a couple buck...the theif well the theif is irrelevant
I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.



Not if purchase of the books is required to use said builder like has been suggested
That would require software development which WoTC is terrible at and at outsourcing it.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

That would require software development which WoTC is terrible at and at outsourcing it.



software....im sure they can handle programming a log in dialog and word find...or hell don't get the shadiest lowest bidder to do your programming.
Word search is completey insecure.

I can pick up the phone, call my friend that has the book and get the answer.  Or, if my friend is willing, they stop at the game store, we coordinate, and they text me the answer.  I could even download the scanned version and put in the right word.  If I'm going to steal, at least make it inconvenient.

I like the shrink wrap/pull tab idea.  With a sticker on the front saying the code is in there for the un-initiated.
Wait, you think walking into a big book.srore, opening the package and ripping the tab, then writeing it down is hard?

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

I think making any character builder will not be worth the money for WoTC,  it takes time, requires customer service, and is hard to protect.  Look at the 4e character builder as an example.  My meaning, after every monthly update you could then wait two days and find an updated cracked version free using bit torrents or piratebay.  There isn't any reason to pay for something you can do on your own anyway.  Their original concept was that the CB of 4e gave you access to everything in D&D w/out the books by printing out all the mechanics on a character sheet.  It was there way of not requiring you to buy every book or dragon magazine but to still collect money for their ideas.  Lets call the 4e Character Builder the information age version of a grognards little binder.

The idea couldn't have been very profitable.  WoTC would very likly be able to sell the rights for making an online character builder to some other company.

For me it won't be of any use as I will be using whatever fan based excel spreedsheet comes out.
The best answer is micro transaction. I want "warriors of mythic might" in my builder I pay $1.25 or I can buy a group of 4 books for $4.25 or all books.during my sub that also gets me compendium and dungeon and dragon, fo $70 a year

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Word search is completey insecure.


and your pull tab and/or shrink wrap is?

again both can be overcome but the tab screws over the consumer the word find does not. Theives are theives they'll find one way or another to steal it WOTC job is to make that as annoying as possible WITHOUT inconviencing the customer.

I'm open to any suggestions that do not require a constant connection to the net to function (Though Obviously you would have to log into your account to apply the code to your account and download the update)

Basically I want to buy the books and I want to use the builder but I'm not going to pay twice for the same info...paying for the software itself would be fine (not a sub an initial price with your "sub" being purchasing the books) also if they did this they could also make it so you could get PDF versions of your books which would be errata'd (optional) and if traveling could bring a laptop instead of 30 books.
I'd take a page from Colleges around the nation that get plenty of their moneys worth. Either A) Shrink Wrap the product, or B) Put a cheap, tear away lable above it. Either way the consumer is protected because he knows if the code might be comprimised, and so do retailers so they can call in the code (if they want) and get it canceled. Both can obviously see that it's been tampered with.

Easy peasy, and no need for a word search.


I've suggested that they use this method so people can get free pdfs of books they've purchased.  Another option is for the store to have the codes behind the counter, and you get one from the clerk when you buy the book.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I'd take a page from Colleges around the nation that get plenty of their moneys worth. Either A) Shrink Wrap the product, or B) Put a cheap, tear away lable above it. Either way the consumer is protected because he knows if the code might be comprimised, and so do retailers so they can call in the code (if they want) and get it canceled. Both can obviously see that it's been tampered with.

Easy peasy, and no need for a word search.


Another option is for the store to have the codes behind the counter, and you get one from the clerk when you buy the book.



Yeah that would work....of course I'd like to clarify it should apply to your account and not be single use for various computer related reasons (formatting, new pc, failed pc/hard drive, accidental deletion, etc. etc.)

Also this could allow for PDFs to be downloadable from your account as well...preferably errata'd
I, too, would prefer an offline CB. The original cost of the subscription wasn't just for the CB, but for several other tools, as well. Since a good portion of that never materialised, I don't think the current sub price is worth what's left.

But then, as others have said, creating and maintaining a PC in 5e probably won't be so complicated that it near-requires the CB.

+1

A monthly subscription for a character builder is ridiculous. I'd rate it more along the lines of a phone app that's free but you get updates if you register it and pay £2 or so.


The other DDI services, particularly the ezine subscriptions, would be worth a subscription fee if the content is worthwhile. By most accounts I've read here the content is nowhere near worth the fee at this time but some have said it was pretty cool to start so if they can get it back to the standard then they'll probably be able to keep a subscription fee for a premium service.


Expecting players to subscribe will be a mistake.

I'd take a page from Colleges around the nation that get plenty of their moneys worth. Either A) Shrink Wrap the product, or B) Put a cheap, tear away lable above it. Either way the consumer is protected because he knows if the code might be comprimised, and so do retailers so they can call in the code (if they want) and get it canceled. Both can obviously see that it's been tampered with.

Easy peasy, and no need for a word search.

Another option is for the store to have the codes behind the counter, and you get one from the clerk when you buy the book.

Yeah that would work....of course I'd like to clarify it should apply to your account and not be single use for various computer related reasons (formatting, new pc, failed pc/hard drive, accidental deletion, etc. etc.)

Also this could allow for PDFs to be downloadable from your account as well...preferably errata'd

These are good ideas. There are plenty of ways to tie online services to the book sales. If physical books aren't your thing then account based ebook sales would do the job as well, but the ability to download and print content is a must.

We should bear in mind that the root cause of most piracy is the inability to get content in a format or timeframe that the consumer wants. If WOTC provides their stuff electronically and physically with a way of keying your physical purchases to your account, without a paygate and all the content is released in the places of highest demand all on the same date then piracy really shouldn't account for much.


All the rest of this is just the regular cat and mouse game publishers have played with pirates for as long as anyone can remember, and what is proven beyond a reasonable doubt is that extreme countermeasures to piracy often drives normal consumers who are willing to pay for their goods to piracy.

I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.



Not if purchase of the books is required to use said builder like has been suggested



Or they could just, you know, make money from an online subscription, and stop making books. The big box bookstores are in decline, and consumers have mobile computers in their backpockets. A D&D line that's primarily digital with a side-order of books may be the better money maker. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.



Not if purchase of the books is required to use said builder like has been suggested



Or they could just, you know, make money from an online subscription, and stop making books. The big box bookstores are in decline, and consumers have mobile computers in their backpockets. A D&D line that's primarily digital with a side-order of books may be the better money maker. 




or how about...No if you want to play a video game with digital instructions go play something on steam or Good old game THIS is pen and PAPER.
Wait, you think walking into a big book.srore, opening the package and ripping the tab, then writeing it down is hard?


No, but the consumer would immediately know that the code might not work and therefore would not buy the item.

The argument really isn't about how easy it is to steal, it's about whether or not it causes problems for the consumer :P If people want to crack the code, they will do it no matter what little tricks wizards puts up their sleeves. The codes are just trying to keep honest people honest :P

This is actually a fine line that companies tread.  Drastic security measures tend to harm your honest consumer base much more than than it protects against piracy. But too little and you risk a large sales loss :P
My two copper.

I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.

Not if purchase of the books is required to use said builder like has been suggested

Or they could just, you know, make money from an online subscription, and stop making books. The big box bookstores are in decline, and consumers have mobile computers in their backpockets. A D&D line that's primarily digital with a side-order of books may be the better money maker.

Course, the larger shops are in trouble but the smaller book shops are thriving. Little mom & pop places that do new and used books on the high street are doing brilliantly. My local gaming shop is actually looking at expanding 'cause it's doing so well, but the games workshop up the road is facing closure.

Seems to me that the big shops are failing for some reason other than demand and there's still plenty of money to be made in books, at least for now. Probably there will be some money to be made no matter what.

I would not expect a DDI for 5th ed for the simple reaosn it probably erodes book sales.



Not if purchase of the books is required to use said builder like has been suggested



Or they could just, you know, make money from an online subscription, and stop making books. The big box bookstores are in decline, and consumers have mobile computers in their backpockets. A D&D line that's primarily digital with a side-order of books may be the better money maker. 




or how about...No if you want to play a video game with digital instructions go play something on steam or Good old game THIS is pen and PAPER.


Alter_Boy is right in many ways. Digital distribution is the way of the future. With lower costs to companies and devices becoming more and more abundant, the larger countries are seeing a large shift away from print and towards digital. As you can see, many age old newsapapers, that have been running traditionally on paper long before D&D, have switched over completely. Look at Libraries as well, ebook support is becomming a huge priority for them (at least for major cities.). 

My two copper.