Wild Beastmaster and LKI

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Ok, so I have an annoying player at my venue that insists he knows the rules, but I'm am sure I know this one.  I had a Wild Beastmaster out that had 5 +1/+1 counters on it from an Increasing Savagery.

I declared the start of my combat, both of us passed priority.
I declared my Beastmaster and a few other creatures as attackers.
The Beastmaster trigger goes on the stack.
He Ultimate Priced it, then said since it died before the trigger resolved, my creatures would only get +2/+2 and not +6/+6.
I argued that when the trigger resolved, it would use LKI and my creatures would get the +6/+6 since the Beast master left as a 6/6 and not a 2/2.

He refuses to agree, and while I still wont he game, I would like to put him in his place with some back up from those that definitely know the rules better than him.
it will use LKI and your creatures would get +6/+6

he'd need to use something like Dismember (not enough in this case, but you get my point) to actually change the value of X
proud member of the 2011 community team
Ok, so I have an annoying player at my venue that insists he knows the rules, but I'm am sure I know this one.  I had a Wild Beastmaster out that had 5 +1/+1 counters on it from an Increasing Savagery.

I declared the start of my combat, both of us passed priority.
I declared my Beastmaster and a few other creatures as attackers.
The Beastmaster trigger goes on the stack.
He Ultimate Priced it, then said since it died before the trigger resolved, my creatures would only get +2/+2 and not +6/+6.
I argued that when the trigger resolved, it would use LKI and my creatures would get the +6/+6 since the Beast master left as a 6/6 and not a 2/2.

He refuses to agree, and while I still wont he game, I would like to put him in his place with some back up from those that definitely know the rules better than him.



You are correct.  From the RtR FAQ:








* The value of X is determined when the triggered ability resolves. If Wild Beastmaster is no longer on the battlefield at that time, use its last known power to determine the value of X. This could be bad for you if Wild Beastmaster’s power was negative. For example, if Wild Beastmaster’s power is -4, each other creature you control will get -4/-4 until end of turn.





You are correct. This is even mentioned on the gatherer rullings, just click on the card name -> Wild Beastmaster
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:

The creature the ability referenced no longer exists. How can a creature that doesn't exist be 2/2?
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

When it ceased to exist, it was 6/6.

608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that’s become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

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I realize the rules work this way, but it doesn't seem to 'make sense' (I know, it isn't logic, it is magic; but...)

It seems weird that if I 'hurt' your creature with last gasp then the other creatures only get +3/+3
But if I destroy your creature with murder; then they get the full +6/+6.

Can anyone explain the reason/logic as to why the rules work this way?


(Did I understand it correctly, that if I used 2 Last Gasps on the creature, it would die as a 0/0, thus the other creatures would get +0/+0??)


Can anyone explain the reason/logic as to why the rules work this way?


The Last Known Information rule exists because, in many cases, spells or abilities couldn't function properly without some information about a creature that's been destroyed, or sacrificed, or in some other way no longer exists.

It has some odd outcomes sometimes, but it's a necessary rule, and trying to fix up all those odd interactions would involve far more complicated, and hard to understand, rules.

(Did I understand it correctly, that if I used 2 Last Gasps on the creature, it would die as a 0/0, thus the other creatures would get +0/+0??)

That is correct. 


If you need a flavour justification: When you murder them, they die at their peak, and are an inspiring Martyr.

When you use two last gasps, they just kind of get all weak and shrivel up. Not so inspiring. 
It just seems to lead to a lot of 'odd interactions', but that my perspective may be skewed from hanging out here so much.
those "odd interactions" are the exception
the rest is logical enough to not warrant any questions for this forum ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
The gold standard of an intuitive LKI scenario is probably Fling. Without the LKI rule, the game would have no way of determining how much damage Fling is supposed to deal, but most players would have no trouble whatsoever figuring out what a Flung Grizzly Bears does.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

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How can a creature that doesn't exist be 2/2?

That is indeed the weirdest part: where did that 2/2 spring from?

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