Kits vs. Prestige Classes vs. Paths vs. Guilds vs. Etc.

Ok so I'm not really sure how to say this so I guess I'll start typing and hope it doesn't suck

As I understand it they will be releasing Prestige classes and possibly multi-classing in the next packet but I'm hoping to get a head start on the issue.

Now so far my personal favorite integration of specialization, pretiges,kits or w/e you want to call them is...well kits. 2nd edition had alot of things wrong with it (ie. Lower AC = better?) but I adored kits...their major weakness was just overall underpoweredness.

When I was still playing 3.xe the prestige classes I found were just annoying especially when people came to the table with character that class line up was like so: 7/2/2/2/2/1/2/3/1 or similar. So eventually I developed something I called the "Guild System" where I essentially removed the prestiges as "classes" and made them into bonuses you obtained on top of your base class which I rarely allowed more than 2-3 "Base" classes and usually only one maybe two "guilds/clans/etc" always required a reason why they have more than one (ie. A Cleric/Monk of Lathander could also join the Order of the Sacred Fist for obvious reasons).

Now this is my own and my groups personal bias but the main reason I brought this up is because a dev mentioned removing the feats/skills,etc. type requirements 3.xe had and replacing it with more roleplaying elemetns (ie. Dragon Slayers must slay a dragon to join that order) so I was wondering what other thought of doing a Kit/Guild System where its more joining a guild/clan/order/etc than actually taking a class.

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It certainly sounds like a good idea. The 3ed DMG2 had a system for Organization Affiliation, where you would gain mechanical benefits for serving your organization and personally adhering to its ideals.

I also like that your focus in on the group, rather than the PC's statistics. It reduces the mindset of using the tool as just another crunch benefit, and as an actual duty to a group. Like what JFK said "Ask not what your guild can do for your PC, ask what your PC can do for your guild."

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Like what JFK said "Ask not what your guild can do for your PC, ask what your PC can do for your guild."


Goes right along with the FDR quote "The only thing we have to fear is SoD spells."
My two copper.
It certainly sounds like a good idea. The 3ed DMG2 had a system for Organization Affiliation, where you would gain mechanical benefits for serving your organization and personally adhering to its ideals.

I also like that your focus in on the group, rather than the PC's statistics. It reduces the mindset of using the tool as just another crunch benefit, and as an actual duty to a group. Like what JFK said "Ask not what your guild can do for your PC, ask what your PC can do for your guild."



I also find it to be another tool to help both the players and the DM develop the story and add "sidequests" this has them working together to assist each other in becoming stronger.
Personally I prefer prestige classes as replacement modules for class. Paragon paths and guild bonuses should be additive modules on top of class.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Personally I prefer prestige classes as replacement modules for class. Paragon paths and guild bonuses should be additive modules on top of class.



Paragon Paths (also themes/epic destinies) were 4es version of Prestiges and I liked it much better....quite similar to kits/my guild system and I hope the devs think of both ways to handle prestiges.
I think the current idea is to include both 3e style full prestige classes and also something called the "legacy system" which sits on top of your class and gives you new benefits, like strongholds and high-level crafting and other RP-heavy mechanical elements.
I think the current idea is to include both 3e style full prestige classes and also something called the "legacy system" which sits on top of your class and gives you new benefits, like strongholds and high-level crafting and other RP-heavy mechanical elements.



MY hope is with the modular style of the new edition will allow them to add rules for both prestige classes and something similar to my guild system/2ekits/4e themes,pps and eds I of course would use the latter but I also understand some people prefer prestige classes so wouldn't mind if that was added as an alternative review

Kits weren't bad but what I disliked about them (well, about most of them) was that they usually gave you a "packet" of abilities right from the start of your characters and then nothing else later (or maybe one or two abilities at certain levels, more rarely).

Prestiges were more like a choice you made halfway through your campaign and that I find more interesting.

That's only a personal opinion but I always prefer if you have many choices along the way than when you have to make a character that's gonna be "that, that and that" all the way from the start, and then you gain less during leveling.

The problem I had with prestiges wasn't the concept, but the mechanics that tended to scramble the leveling of 3.x a bit.
Make a 2-class multi in 3ed and there shouldn't be any problem, but start adding more classes and prestiges and suddenly those Save/Base Attack tables and such began to turn weird. You could end up with much less (or more) than you should have on average at your level.
I remember one guy playing who took lots of prestiges. He had insane saves but his BaB was terrible.

Also, prerequisites for Prestiges were too much.
Most Prestiges you had to plan your character right from the start to take this and that feat at those levels, and this and that skills, etc.
Prestiges should have very light prerequisites.
The real prerequisite of a Prestige should be on role-playing (getting accepted into that order of wizards, for example).

Or else it no longer becomes something made so that you can different paths along the evolution of your character.
NPC says "You fight well and has proven your worth, would you be interested in joining our order of Knights?"
Player says "Sorry... missing 3 feats for that. I should have known from level 1 that I would be called to join the order."

 

Goes right along with the FDR quote "The only thing we have to fear is SoD spells."



"The only thing we have to fear is timormancers."
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
@Rastapop: Thats why I much prefer my Guild System...it combines the way kits work with your class instead of replacing it with they roleplaying flexibility of the prestige classes without the annoying pre-planning the 3.5 prestiges required
@Rastapop: Thats why I much prefer my Guild System...it combines the way kits work with your class instead of replacing it with they roleplaying flexibility of the prestige classes without the annoying pre-planning the 3.5 prestiges required

I like the concept but not the name.  Few of my characters these days are part of any formalized group (it took over an hour for my latest gaming group to answer the in game question "So what does your party call itself?" the thought was so foreign to us in and out of game) so the thought of joining one just to gain paragon/prestige/kit features works against the common gaming style in my circles.
@Rastapop: Thats why I much prefer my Guild System...it combines the way kits work with your class instead of replacing it with they roleplaying flexibility of the prestige classes without the annoying pre-planning the 3.5 prestiges required

I like the concept but not the name.  Few of my characters these days are part of any formalized group (it took over an hour for my latest gaming group to answer the in game question "So what does your party call itself?" the thought was so foreign to us in and out of game) so the thought of joining one just to gain paragon/prestige/kit features works against the common gaming style in my circles.



Oh I'm sure the devs could come up with a much better name...I just suck at naming...it could be anything...guild/clan/self-taught/learned from a demon/accidental tidal shift...w/e I just call it the guild system because...well \like I said I suck at naming things
Pretty much sounds like you're advocating for something more like Paragon Paths.  That's my preference too, mainly because the proliferation of Prestige Classes in 3.5 meant that no one actually played through as a base class, which seems like a waste.

Also, if joining an organization was going to result in picking up levels in a different class, I don't see why it shouldn't just be another base class.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

I dislike The Prestege classes all together. I like a little more free flowing character development. I don't need Paragon Paths or Kits. I do advocate these for those who enjoy them but I don't use them in my games generally speaking. I prefer base classes advanced through the levels and customized each level rather than the level & feat tax to become a - Pr.c. for perks to shoehorn me into this archtype.
Happy gaming all.
I imagine the next kits/themes like a list of alternative class features (and exclusive optional feats and powers). For example the swashbuckler (complete warrior) should be a fighter subclass (heavy and medium armour is lost but PC get special maneuvers only can be done with light armour).

I like the idea of kit/theme because I wish my PC was different since the first level, without waiting until getting 5th level.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

If multi-classing is simple and straight foward, then I would prefer no to have prestige classes or paragon paths except for specific sections of a game world. I would rather see more development of professions, crafting, and political systems to give each player more options out of combat. The problem with prestige classes and paragon paths is wanting to take one and not meeting the prerequisites and then trying to work them into the campaign and explain why a first level character has deep insights into these advance schools of knowledge or practices.
I prefer kits that wads or modify class features up front, and give you a few goodies along the way. In a way it is similar to the build choices in 4e, but perhaps more modular.
1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


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I very much like the guild system your talking about, I was thinking about doing the same thing for our PF group in order to get rid of some over powered feats and feat combos that I hate, not to say that they cant eventually be learned but that some amount of roleplaying would be required to gain access to them. I hate how in PF if you want to be a theif or mage or cleric etc. then wiz bang your a cleric no training or roleplaying required.


Personally I loved kits and still like them more than prestige classes or any other type of character mod. In essence the kits were mostly roleplay enhancement, you got one or two minor abilities from a kit (like +2 to AC if wearing light armor for the duelist) and the maximim about of roleplaing for that choice (uasually a page or so of nothing but background and suggestions) less rules, more fun, and therefore less of an ability to system master it or combine it with other character options to create a one trick pony.


Kits were best.     
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
Wow when I posted this I figured it would be an unpopular opinion...guess I was wrong...kits are awesome

As for the people who mentioned it, yes 4es PP/Themes/EDs were quite similar to my guild system...except my guild system (which I really DO need a new name for) you could join at any time as long as you made the roleplaing requirements instead of at 1, 11 & 21 and IMO thats a very important distinction.

Kits in 2e were awesome because it made character of the same class distinct imagine that mixed with the freedom to adot at kit at any time based on roleplaying requirements and 3e style multiclassing...but you know less broken...which IIRC a dev said multiclsses will be leveling on a different table than singleclasses. Hopefully together we can get it balanced just right because honestly I love 4e but really miss multi-classing (no taking the multiclass feats don't count) although hybriding was similar to 2e Dual-classing.

Cannot wait for the multiclassing playtest.
Personally I don't find anything wrong with prestige classes. Generally I've always found them to be less of what I want rather than straight multi-classing. I think that more options are better in a modular system though because it means that a group can decide what to have included and what to leave out. I think less options is more restrictive and makes a player feel less creative with their characters. I think they all should be included somehow in some form.
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Personally I don't find anything wrong with prestige classes. Generally I've always found them to be less of what I want rather than straight multi-classing. I think that more options are better in a modular system though because it means that a group can decide what to have included and what to leave out. I think less options is more restrictive and makes a player feel less creative with their characters. I think they all should be included somehow in some form.



Yes modularity FTW

Want Multi-classing? We got it

Want Prestiges classes? we got them too

Want 2e dual-class/4e hybrid? yep got those

Want Kits and/or Paragon Paths? here ya go

Want to ignore any of the above options? go for it
Personally I don't find anything wrong with prestige classes. Generally I've always found them to be less of what I want rather than straight multi-classing. I think that more options are better in a modular system though because it means that a group can decide what to have included and what to leave out. I think less options is more restrictive and makes a player feel less creative with their characters. I think they all should be included somehow in some form.



Yes modularity FTW

Want Multi-classing? We got it

Want Prestiges classes? we got them too

Want 2e dual-class/4e hybrid? yep got those

Want Kits and/or Paragon Paths? here ya go

Want to ignore any of the above options? go for it


I think that presenting options is the best way to please most people at once rather than a select few. Whatever you want ignored can be ignored without having to make your own changes all of the time. The key is to make it simple enough to ignore whatever rule sets you want to ignore. :D 
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I think that presenting options is the best way to please most people at once rather than a select few. Whatever you want ignored can be ignored without having to make your own changes all of the time. The key is to make it simple enough to ignore whatever rule sets you want to ignore. :D 



Personally I think the easiest way to do this would to be to literally have each module be its own book (or line of books)

Something Like this:

Core Rules (This is you VERY basic rules with expedient character creation with limited options and very good for teaching new players/being a new DM, includes the basic rules for the core classes wizard, cleric, rogue and fighter as well as the standard races Human, Elf, Dwarf & Halfling...a game could easily be run with a single book passed around during character creation than held by the DM during the game)

PHB (Will include options for the core classes/races ie.cleric deities and wizard traditions)

DMG (Enitirely focused on monster making, dungeon building and has plenty of tables/quick references for rules)

Multi-classing (This would give the Basic rules on how multi-classing works in general as well as the 4 core classes' multiclass tables, options,etc.)

Prestiges (see MCing except for prestige classes - as all rules it also has a section on intergrating with various other systems...ie. multi-classing + prestiges)

Kits (again gives the rules of how these function and how to integrate with other modules...ie. Kits+multiclassing)

Dual classing (same as others except can't really be combined with multiclassing as its more of an alternative but has combination rules with kits...ie. Swashbuckler/Illusionist instead of Rogue/Wizard)

Class/Race books (Each class/race beyond the core will have its own book detailing everything about them as well as how they work in kits, multiclassing, dual classing etc.)

Supplmentary books (ie. PHB 2, Warlock2,etc. these offer further options for their parent book PHB2 of course having even more options for the core races & classes than BookX 2 would have further options for that class)

The Base books explain each module and how it functions with the core races and/or classes than further class books have rules for the class themselves as well as how they function with the various modules than finally supplmentary books add extra options to the other books (ie. PHB2 adds new options for the core classes/races) and of course only a few modules are listed here mainly to stay on topic but I will mention that of course there would be books for other modular rules systems such as the various casting methods (Ie. Spell points, vancian,etc.) or a How-to Half-Race (A complete guide on making mixed race characters and how to blend their racial traits)

A standard game would see the DM with Core Rules, DMG & PHB and each player with a PHB than prossibly some DM chosen modules and each player with some extra Class, Race and/or Supplementary books and of course lots of Pens and Paper

Edit: Cleaned up explanations a bit especially for PHB,DMG and Core rules...also added in "races" cause I forgot to :P

I think that presenting options is the best way to please most people at once rather than a select few. Whatever you want ignored can be ignored without having to make your own changes all of the time. The key is to make it simple enough to ignore whatever rule sets you want to ignore. :D 



Personally I think the easiest way to do this would to be to literally have each module be its own book (or line of books)

Something Like this:

Core Rules (This is you VERY basic rules with expedient character creation with limited options and very good for teaching new players/being a new DM, includes the basic rules for the core classes wizard, cleric, rogue and fighter as well as the standard races Human, Elf, Dwarf & Halfling...a game could easily be run with a single book passed around during character creation than held by the DM during the game)

PHB (Will include options for the core classes/races ie.cleric deities and wizard traditions)

DMG (Enitirely focused on monster making, dungeon building and has plenty of tables/quick references for rules)

Multi-classing (This would give the Basic rules on how multi-classing works in general as well as the 4 core classes' multiclass tables, options,etc.)

Prestiges (see MCing except for prestige classes - as all rules it also has a section on intergrating with various other systems...ie. multi-classing + prestiges)

Kits (again gives the rules of how these function and how to integrate with other modules...ie. Kits+multiclassing)

Dual classing (same as others except can't really be combined with multiclassing as its more of an alternative but has combination rules with kits...ie. Swashbuckler/Illusionist instead of Rogue/Wizard)

Class/Race books (Each class/race beyond the core will have its own book detailing everything about them as well as how they work in kits, multiclassing, dual classing etc.)

Supplmentary books (ie. PHB 2, Warlock2,etc. these offer further options for their parent book PHB2 of course having even more options for the core 4 than BookX 2 would have further options for that class)

The Base books explain each module and how it functions with the core 4 classes than further class books have rules for the class themselves as well as how they function with the various modules than finally supplmentary books add extra options to the other books (ie. PHB2 adds new options for the core classes/races) and of course only a few modules are listed here mainly to stay on topic but I will mention that of course there would be books for other modular rules systems such as the various casting methods (Ie. Spell points, vancian,etc.) or a How-to Half-Race (A complete guide on making mixed race characters and how to blend their racial traits)

A standard game would see the DM with Core Rules, DMG & PHB and each player with a PHB than prossibly some DM chosen modules and each player with some extra Class, Race and/or Supplementary books and of course lots of Pens and Paper

Edit: Cleaned up explanations a bit especially for PHB,DMG and Core rules...also added in "races" cause I forgot to :P


I think that that's A LOT of books though. I think some of those could simply be in one book. I think multi-classing could be in the core rule book as well as several prestige classes. I also think that several prestige classes could be in a PHB and other class books. I don't think everything needs a seperate book since not everything gets released or created at the same time. I also think that some of these duals/multi's/prestiges may be setting-specific so they would be in different setting books. 
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I think that that's A LOT of books though. I think some of those could simply be in one book. I think multi-classing could be in the core rule book as well as several prestige classes. I also think that several prestige classes could be in a PHB and other class books. I don't think everything needs a seperate book since not everything gets released or created at the same time. I also think that some of these duals/multi's/prestiges may be setting-specific so they would be in different setting books. 



IMO nothing else should go into the core rules book this should be basic vanilla no frills base game...move everything you said should go into there to the PHB (or DMG if applicable). Also I mentioned the How-to Half-Race...that could probably just be a section in each race book...would probably only be like a paragraph. Also to clarify I think I worded the "class" book explanation badly Warlock was only an example in reality it would likely be the "Dark Magic" book with Warlock, Witches, Blackguards and um...Blood Mages or something.

Beyond that I kind of of disagree with you whilst still somehow agreeing if this is going to be modular putting prestiges into the PHB keeps it from being moudular since in becomes the base rule...I'd be fine with a little bit of everything in the PHB though...so the PHB includes the core races and classes and prestiges, kits, dual classing tables, multiclassing tables,etc. for them than each supplemntary book ie. "Dark Magic" would include the same except for those specific classes and/or races. This reduces the amount of required books but still keeps all the rules modular since very book has every option availible so its as interchangable as choosing which stats go where.

Also yes setting specific stuff like Artificers and Warforged (see Ebberon) would of course be in those campaign books as well as how their related kits, multiclass & dual classing tables, pretiges classes,etc. functions.

Sidenote: I'd also like to see templates come back...you know like half-dragon, vampires, Undead,Lycans,elemental,etc. each with their own advantages and disadvantage which add to the base races traits.
Kits weren't bad but what I disliked about them (well, about most of them) was that they usually gave you a "packet" of abilities right from the start of your characters and then nothing else later (or maybe one or two abilities at certain levels, more rarely). 

That's just how classes worked back then, though. Personally, I liked how they gave you some mechanical reinforcement for your concept right at first level.

The big disconnect I felt with prestige classes was how players would plan their future advancement ahead of time, without room to take into account how the adventure would change them along the way (probably as a side effect of the vast power disparities - just developing naturally would be ridiculously ineffective, in comparison to planning).

The metagame is not the game.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />The big disconnect I felt with prestige classes was how players would plan their future advancement ahead of time, without room to take into account how the adventure would change them along the way (probably as a side effect of the vast power disparities - just developing naturally would be ridiculously ineffective, in comparison to planning).



Thats my other big issue with prestiges but I really think the bigger issue is it halts your base classes progression it makes it so very few people actually stick with a base class for more than was absolutly necessaary...at least with kits and paragon paths you could just roll with w/e you feel like taking at that time. 5e so far we take one level at a time and it works and while I'm on the edge of my seat to see what they do with multi-classing I'm very worried we'll lose that ability.

My dream ruleset would be kits that you can obtain at any time through roleplaying...ie. the dragonslayer kit can be qualified for by slaying a dragon and can be applied at the behest of your DM at any time...make more of a reward in the same way loot is that a class that you have to take levels in. You could also do this with templates...get bitten by a vampire and if the DM approves...or punishes you with it than boom Vampire template applied as easy as dragon slayer is.

The best part comes when you start mixing rules...multiclassing (or dualclassing)+kits sure your could be a Rogue/Wizard but what about an Assassin/Illusionist all you have to do is assassinate someone and use illusion magic in a way that impresses the DM, Possibly at the same time...it encourages roleplaying as opposed to encouraging system mastery...which some people love obtaining system mastery so voila...modularity for the wiun you can ignore kits and use prestig classes instead.

I actually like Prestige Classes, at least in concept. When I bought 4e, I was initially upset by the lack of Prestige Classes, but then I discovered Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, so I was cool.




Kits weren't bad but what I disliked about them (well, about most of them) was that they usually gave you a "packet" of abilities right from the start of your characters and then nothing else later (or maybe one or two abilities at certain levels, more rarely). 

That's just how classes worked back then, though. Personally, I liked how they gave you some mechanical reinforcement for your concept right at first level.

The big disconnect I felt with prestige classes was how players would plan their future advancement ahead of time, without room to take into account how the adventure would change them along the way (probably as a side effect of the vast power disparities - just developing naturally would be ridiculously ineffective, in comparison to planning).






I actually like planning ahead of time.
 
Prestige CLasses hbave changed a bit in SWSE and Pathfinder so hopefull;y they will move them toward that sort of thing rather than the 3.5 incarnation of them. PrCs I think are a great idea but 3.5 spammed them out and had saves etc stack.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I actually like planning ahead of time.
 



Again this is why I like modularity...I prefer a more fluid narrative and being able to just choose feats, levels, equipment as the story dictates as opposed to planning before hand is my preference obviously its not yours so prestiges suit you better...wooo modularity

Sidenote: The current 4e campiagn I'm running has gone so far of the initially planned campaign  and I think its awesome the players are molding almost as much of the story as I am and pre-planning would make this much harder.

Sidenote2: If anyone plays DDO I love the way they do prestiges aside from the fact their tied to specfic classes (although that more for easier balancing/coding than anything else really)

I think that that's A LOT of books though. I think some of those could simply be in one book. I think multi-classing could be in the core rule book as well as several prestige classes. I also think that several prestige classes could be in a PHB and other class books. I don't think everything needs a seperate book since not everything gets released or created at the same time. I also think that some of these duals/multi's/prestiges may be setting-specific so they would be in different setting books. 



IMO nothing else should go into the core rules book this should be basic vanilla no frills base game...move everything you said should go into there to the PHB (or DMG if applicable). Also I mentioned the How-to Half-Race...that could probably just be a section in each race book...would probably only be like a paragraph. Also to clarify I think I worded the "class" book explanation badly Warlock was only an example in reality it would likely be the "Dark Magic" book with Warlock, Witches, Blackguards and um...Blood Mages or something.

Beyond that I kind of of disagree with you whilst still somehow agreeing if this is going to be modular putting prestiges into the PHB keeps it from being moudular since in becomes the base rule...I'd be fine with a little bit of everything in the PHB though...so the PHB includes the core races and classes and prestiges, kits, dual classing tables, multiclassing tables,etc. for them than each supplemntary book ie. "Dark Magic" would include the same except for those specific classes and/or races. This reduces the amount of required books but still keeps all the rules modular since very book has every option availible so its as interchangable as choosing which stats go where.

Also yes setting specific stuff like Artificers and Warforged (see Ebberon) would of course be in those campaign books as well as how their related kits, multiclass & dual classing tables, pretiges classes,etc. functions.

Sidenote: I'd also like to see templates come back...you know like half-dragon, vampires, Undead,Lycans,elemental,etc. each with their own advantages and disadvantage which add to the base races traits.


I disagree. You shouldn't have to buy 10 books off the bat in order to get the play style you want. You should be able to experiment with the different styles just by buying some books and then if you like a particular style or two then you spend more money. The Core book should include something about the different modules available and only some of the options in them for a taste of it. This is what would sell the other books and would help players get an idea of what they would want to include in their game. I love larger books and having less books to flip through. 

No, just because modules are in the core rules doesn't mean they aren't modules. It would be its own section in the book stated as being optional. There would be few options with it because it wouldn't be something needed in order to play the game. Its to introduce people to the different things available so they what it is. You would only have modules available for the core classes, races, etc. So prestige classes and kits would only be available for the classes in the core book. Everything else would be in more books. So if you want more kits then you would be able to know what kits are before buying a book about kits because what they are has already been covered in the core book. 
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Now so far my personal favorite integration of specialization, pretiges,kits or w/e you want to call them is...well kits. 2nd edition had alot of things wrong with it (ie. Lower AC = better?) but I adored kits...their major weakness was just overall underpoweredness.



A kit in 2e wasn't designed to give you more power or more options.   They only provided you with details that a particular role playing concept requires.     Kits came with special hindrences, many of which were not even combat related.      For example, the Noble Warrior had to pay more for equipment than any other character.  That hindrance didn't exist to balance any mechanic, it just existed because it made sense for the concept.     Kits were not designed to be equal in power to each other.   If the concept only required a restriction on equipment then that's all it provided.   Kit's did not include contrived mechanics for the sake of power gamers.    After all, the 2e game discouraged power gaming and therefore kits did not support it.    You didn't take a kit because you wanted a new special power toy.  

As for prestige classes I really don't want to see them in 5e.   I was hoping that they died with 3e, but it looks like Mearls is going back in that direction.    



I disagree. You shouldn't have to buy 10 books off the bat in order to get the play style you want. You should be able to experiment with the different styles just by buying some books and then if you like a particular style or two then you spend more money. The Core book should include something about the different modules available and only some of the options in them for a taste of it. This is what would sell the other books and would help players get an idea of what they would want to include in their game. I love larger books and having less books to flip through.



Fair enough...I'd say merge the PHB and core rules book than but have have a section on a quick/easy game...if I had to choose one thing that I liked about 4e I'd say the it was so easy to introduce new players to the game so I'd definately like a few pages dedicated to "introducing the game" beyond that I'm cool with your suggestion


No, just because modules are in the core rules doesn't mean they aren't modules. It would be its own section in the book stated as being optional. There would be few options with it because it wouldn't be something needed in order to play the game. Its to introduce people to the different things available so they what it is. You would only have modules available for the core classes, races, etc. So prestige classes and kits would only be available for the classes in the core book. Everything else would be in more books. So if you want more kits then you would be able to know what kits are before buying a book about kits because what they are has already been covered in the core book. 



This stuff I'm pretty sure we agree on I though you meant that only prestiges classes would be in the PHB and I was trying to say it should offer ALL options (availlible at the time) sorry.

So it would be like this

PHB: Pretty much everything all the rules, how multiclass, how to dual class, how to apply kits, how to apply templates, a section on a qucik easy first game, the core races and classes...in short this is a big book

DMG: Dungeon building, monster creation, a fair sized bestiary, all that fun stuff everyone knows whats in here

Supplemental Books: These vary new races, new classes, etc. long story short their usually compilations of a few races and/or classes including any modular rules specific to those things

Campaign Books: These are similar to supplemental book but have a lot of fluff and mechanical things specfic to that area (ie. Ebberron would have warforged, artificers and anything thats different in this setting than normal...ie. Drow being tribal and worship Vulkoor instead of underdark dwelling murderers that worship Lloth)

So you could play 5e with the PHB alone...preferably with a DMG than everything else is optional.


A kit in 2e wasn't designed to give you more power or more options.   They only provided you with details that a particular role playing. If the concept only required a restriction on equipment then that's all it provided.   Kit's did not include contrived mechanics for the sake of power gamers.    After all, the 2e game discouraged power gaming and therefore kits did not support it.    You didn't take a kit because you wanted a new special power toy.



Oh I'm totally fine with things that are completely for roleplaying purposes actually going back to my idea that kits should be able to be obtained at any time an my dragon slayer example I think it would cool if instead of getting new bonuses every level each kit (maybe a better name would "Title" or "Reputation") would require something special like the first "level" of bonuses would require the slaying of a young dragon...second "level" adult dragon,etc,etc.

That way the initial recieving of the "kit, title, w/e" and the advancement of those abilities would be all related to the the charcaters experiences and roleplaying. It would be different for each one of course some could be really complicated I just want to avoid have to map out your entire character beforehand by requiring things like feats.


As for prestige classes I really don't want to see them in 5e.   I was hoping that they died with 3e, but it looks like Mearls is going back in that direction.



I concur but it can't hurt to have it as an option for the people who do want it as long as it's just that an OPTION.

I disagree. You shouldn't have to buy 10 books off the bat in order to get the play style you want. You should be able to experiment with the different styles just by buying some books and then if you like a particular style or two then you spend more money. The Core book should include something about the different modules available and only some of the options in them for a taste of it. This is what would sell the other books and would help players get an idea of what they would want to include in their game. I love larger books and having less books to flip through.



Fair enough...I'd say merge the PHB and core rules book than but have have a section on a quick/easy game...if I had to choose one thing that I liked about 4e I'd say the it was so easy to introduce new players to the game so I'd definately like a few pages dedicated to "introducing the game" beyond that I'm cool with your suggestion


No, just because modules are in the core rules doesn't mean they aren't modules. It would be its own section in the book stated as being optional. There would be few options with it because it wouldn't be something needed in order to play the game. Its to introduce people to the different things available so they what it is. You would only have modules available for the core classes, races, etc. So prestige classes and kits would only be available for the classes in the core book. Everything else would be in more books. So if you want more kits then you would be able to know what kits are before buying a book about kits because what they are has already been covered in the core book. 



This stuff I'm pretty sure we agree on I though you meant that only prestiges classes would be in the PHB and I was trying to say it should offer ALL options (availlible at the time) sorry.

So it would be like this

PHB: Pretty much everything all the rules, how multiclass, how to dual class, how to apply kits, how to apply templates, a section on a qucik easy first game, the core races and classes...in short this is a big book

DMG: Dungeon building, monster creation, a fair sized bestiary, all that fun stuff everyone knows whats in here

Supplemental Books: These vary new races, new classes, etc. long story short their usually compilations of a few races and/or classes including any modular rules specific to those things

Campaign Books: These are similar to supplemental book but have a lot of fluff and mechanical things specfic to that area (ie. Ebberron would have warforged, artificers and anything thats different in this setting than normal...ie. Drow being tribal and worship Vulkoor instead of underdark dwelling murderers that worship Lloth)

So you could play 5e with the PHB alone...preferably with a DMG than everything else is optional.


Now that's what I agree with. I think every little piece of the game having its own book would be annoying for most players. Keeping it most stuff beyond campaign/supplemental/advanced stuff allows players to pick and choose what kind of new stuff they want to play with as opposed to running out and getting the multi-class stuff since it had to be a new book. :D 

 
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)

I disagree. You shouldn't have to buy 10 books off the bat in order to get the play style you want. You should be able to experiment with the different styles just by buying some books and then if you like a particular style or two then you spend more money. The Core book should include something about the different modules available and only some of the options in them for a taste of it. This is what would sell the other books and would help players get an idea of what they would want to include in their game. I love larger books and having less books to flip through.



Fair enough...I'd say merge the PHB and core rules book than but have have a section on a quick/easy game...if I had to choose one thing that I liked about 4e I'd say the it was so easy to introduce new players to the game so I'd definately like a few pages dedicated to "introducing the game" beyond that I'm cool with your suggestion


No, just because modules are in the core rules doesn't mean they aren't modules. It would be its own section in the book stated as being optional. There would be few options with it because it wouldn't be something needed in order to play the game. Its to introduce people to the different things available so they what it is. You would only have modules available for the core classes, races, etc. So prestige classes and kits would only be available for the classes in the core book. Everything else would be in more books. So if you want more kits then you would be able to know what kits are before buying a book about kits because what they are has already been covered in the core book. 



This stuff I'm pretty sure we agree on I though you meant that only prestiges classes would be in the PHB and I was trying to say it should offer ALL options (availlible at the time) sorry.

So it would be like this

PHB: Pretty much everything all the rules, how multiclass, how to dual class, how to apply kits, how to apply templates, a section on a qucik easy first game, the core races and classes...in short this is a big book

DMG: Dungeon building, monster creation, a fair sized bestiary, all that fun stuff everyone knows whats in here

Supplemental Books: These vary new races, new classes, etc. long story short their usually compilations of a few races and/or classes including any modular rules specific to those things

Campaign Books: These are similar to supplemental book but have a lot of fluff and mechanical things specfic to that area (ie. Ebberron would have warforged, artificers and anything thats different in this setting than normal...ie. Drow being tribal and worship Vulkoor instead of underdark dwelling murderers that worship Lloth)

So you could play 5e with the PHB alone...preferably with a DMG than everything else is optional.


Now that's what I agree with. I think every little piece of the game having its own book would be annoying for most players. Keeping it most stuff beyond campaign/supplemental/advanced stuff allows players to pick and choose what kind of new stuff they want to play with as opposed to running out and getting the multi-class stuff since it had to be a new book. :D 

 



The only problem (and advantage to this playtest) is they would have to have all the different modules ready in time for release otherwise it wouldn't make it into the PHB...if they can pull this off though I'd bow to their greatness :D

Here's hoping their listening
A option could be the "character template". Templates fro PCs could be half-dragon bloodline, but too member of a wizard guild, a order of cavalry, riding a monster mount, a "4th paragon class", using a legendary weapon or some other special extra help.

What if PC don´t use the template? The deffault adventage would he can have more attuned magic item, and more body slots to use magic objetcs, and use higher number of stacked magic bonus. I suposse I wouldn´t break the balance of power.  

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

A option could be the "character template". Templates fro PCs could be half-dragon bloodline, but too member of a wizard guild, a order of cavalry, riding a monster mount, a "4th paragon class", using a legendary weapon or some other special extra help.

What if PC don´t use the template? The deffault adventage would he can have more attuned magic item, and more body slots to use magic objetcs, and use higher number of stacked magic bonus. I suposse I wouldn´t break the balance of power.  



Exactly this :D

Also you mentioned Half-Dragon, what I'd like to see with stuff like that (ie. Undead, Elemental, Vamire, Lycan,Werebear,etc.) is have them be Universal Sub-Races...IOW instead of being a Lightfoot Halfling or a Hill Dwarf you could be an Undead Halfing or Half-Dragon Dwarf and like other subraces they have unique abilities

Also found a cool relveant pic

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