ranged marking?

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i'm going to be playing a fighter 6 (sword or maybe flail & board) in my wife's game. the party composition: eladrin orbizard, human invoker, elf pursuit avenger, human other leader, i think it's a taclord.

my gamist inclinations dictate maximizing my marking ability, which got me thinking. the fighter marks when he attacks. therefore, even if i don't prioritize DEX, i can mark effectively when not engaged in melee. naturally, i expect to select as many burst powers as possible as well. i've already considered a reach weapon but with this party, i figure there's enough sliding that the reach isn't worth the hit to AC i'd be taking.

my questions:

1) does having both a longbow and a javelin make sense or is the bow complete overkill? i'm thinking the bow might be a good insurance policy re: marking and the odd flying enemy.

2) i don't presently have access to DDI & am relying on my books. i own PHB1-3, all powers books (besides MP2), AV1, AV2, MMM. are there any other books for feats/gear/other options i should look into?
1) both are overkill

2) there are so many errata, I would seriously suggest selling all the books and getting DDI instead.
Minor to stow Sword, Standard to remove Shield, Minor to stow Shield, Minor to - oh wait, you're out of actions and don't have your bow out.

Stick with the Javelin and take the Master at Arms feat, it's not like Heavy Blade Expertise's bonus effect is that great; unless you go with Flails, then you want Flail Expertise and Quick Draw.

And since I just mentioned them, the essentials books introduced some fantastic feats to give feat bonuses to hit, they're basically Weapon Expertise but with a fantastic bonus like "In addition, when you hit with a melee weapon attack using a flail and the attack lets you slide the target, you can knock the target prone instead of sliding it." which works great with Footwork Lure and eventually in paragon - Lashing Flail

Oh, and Rules Compendium. Because Rules.

On second thought, Baldhermit is pretty much right, there's so much Dragon magazine content that you'll want access too - Themes, powers and feats for classes that desperately need them like Avenger - as well as the books you don't have, that the DDI Sub is very helpful unless you want to buy all the things (and then you're still short the Dragon articles). Regardless, you want the Rules Compendium.
baldhermit: with a 5 square move, i'm having trouble seeing both as overkill, can you enlarge on your thinking here? noted re: errata, need to look into that.

backmask: good point, kinda forgot about the actions to switch but yeah, quick draw's a necessity here. thanks for the heads up re: rules compendium. i also appreciate the input re: flails & other stuff, was worried about the dragon content.

thanks both!
1) The problem is, that you'll find only a limited amount of magic items. So if you have 4 different weapons, you'll neglect other item slots, which could be more important. Simply get yourself a long range javelin and all your ranged problems are solved (unless the target is more than 30 squares away).




Weapon of Long Range Level 2+ Common

Though your allies can barely see your enemies approaching, your attacks with this weapon are already finding their targets.
































Lvl 2+1520 gpLvl 17+465,000 gp
Lvl 7+22,600 gpLvl 22+5325,000 gp
Lvl 12+313,000 gpLvl 27+61,625,000 gp

Weapon: Any ranged or any thrown


Enhancement Bonus: Attack rolls and damage rolls


Critical: +1d6 damage per plus


Properties



  • This weapon’s long range increases by 10 squares.

  • You do not take the penalty to attack rolls for attacking at long range with this weapon.





Published in Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, page(s) 35.


Want anime-style Power cards? Then try the Touhou Power Cards!

It's worth noting that Fighters do have some neat tricks involving throwing weapons - specifically, Cleave with Deft Hurler Style.  If you do choose to go down this route, you want to get yourself one of the throwing enchantments - Dwarven Thrower, Farbond Spellblade, Hungry and Crashing.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Blake, assuming that your DM is not a total ***** (you married her, after all), she will adjust the campaign to the parties needs and abilities. As such, I do not see the need for any ranged weapon at all.

D&D 4e heavily rewards specialisation, so I would recommend you fully equip yourself in feats, powers and items to be the melee controller you're supposed to be.

In the off-chance, once in a blue moon, you do come across a flying creature that your two controllers cannot bring down, bring a simple magic +1 javelin for 360gp.
Given the fact a level 6 character has very limited resources, both in cash as in powers and feats, that is all the investment I would be willing to drop into that particular area. Do not forget that anything you spend in dealing with possible flying creatures is something you are not spending on your main objective, which is melee control.


As a total aside, you should not prioritise Dex for the same reason. You need Strength, you need a basic level of Wisdom (14 minimum), and some points in Con would probably also not be entirely wasted.   

      
It's also worth noting that you can make RBAs with STR and one-handed weapons.  Bows are almost  completely wasted on a Fighter.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Another really nice option, to avoid range nonsense, is to get a Fey Strike Weapon.  On the rare cases you can't reach something for a turn you just MBA as a ranged 20 without provoking.  If you really need that flying jerk down, just teleport him next to you.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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A Heavy Thrown weapon will allow you to make Ranged Basic Attacks using your Strength.  Any enchanted weapon +1 (or greater) returns to your hand, which should solve your ranged issues and give you the option to attack at range if it becomes necessary.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
I think it's important to point out that when a fighter marks at range, all that mark is doing is giving the monster a -2 to attack creatures other than the fighter, which kind of just makes you a weak controller.  You have no punishment at range, and punishment is a keystone of defending. One of the things that makes fighters good is their "stickiness," but you have to be adjacent to make use of it.

Now, your wife may play it that every marked monster will go for you, but an intelligent monster would most likely take his chances with -2 to attack the squishy wizard instead of walking over to the armored fighter.  If you really want to focus on marking multiple things and backing up that mark with punishment, you might want to consider something else like a Paladin.

Note that I'm not saying a fighter doesn't have tricks to multi-mark, but when you're building a fighter to use ranged attacks in order to mark at range, you're squishing the fighter into a role that he does poorly.
crayne: i wasn't familiar with that item, thank you!

thespaceinvader quoth:
it's worth noting that fighters do have some neat tricks involving throwing weapons - specifically, cleave with deft hurler style.


much obliged, am unfamiliar with the style feats so i'll need to check that out!

baldhermit quoth:
blake, assuming that your DM is not a total ***** (you married her, after all), she will adjust the campaign to the parties needs and abilities. as such, i do not see the need for any ranged weapon at all.

D&D 4e heavily rewards specialisation, so i would recommend you fully equip yourself in feats, powers and items to be the melee controller you're supposed to be.


thank you for elaborating. your points are sensible & i appreciate the input. i shall abandon my original plan.

thespaceinvader quoth:
it's also worth noting that you can make RBAs with STR and one-handed weapons.  bows are almost  completely wasted on a fighter.


i was of that opinion but the thing about marking on a miss had me thinking.

matyr quoth:
another really nice option, to avoid range nonsense, is to get a fey strike weapon. on the rare cases you can't reach something for a turn you just MBA as a ranged 20 without provoking. if you really need that flying jerk down, just teleport him next to you.


excellent point, another player has a PC with a fey strike weapon in another game. i'd somehow forgotten:  thank you.

themaltesefalchion quoth:
a heavy thrown weapon will allow you to make ranged basic attacks using your strength.  any enchanted weapon +1 (or greater) returns to your hand, which should solve your ranged issues and give you the option to attack at range if it becomes necessary.


yep, i did notice the heavy thrown items, hence the javelin observation.  thanks!

scatterbrained quoth:
i think it's important to point out that when a fighter marks at range, all that mark is doing is giving the monster a -2 to attack creatures other than the fighter, which kind of just makes you a weak controller.  you have no punishment at range, and punishment is a keystone of defending. one of the things that makes fighters good is their "stickiness," but you have to be adjacent to make use of it.

now, your wife may play it that every marked monster will go for you, but an intelligent monster would most likely take his chances with -2 to attack the squishy wizard instead of walking over to the armored fighter. if you really want to focus on marking multiple things and backing up that mark with punishment, you might want to consider something else like a paladin.

note that i'm not saying a fighter doesn't have tricks to multi-mark, but when you're building a fighter to use ranged attacks in order to mark at range, you're squishing the fighter into a role that he does poorly.


fair points of course. i shall content myself with a +1 javelin assuming this doesn't impinge upon my gear choices.

thanks everyone for your prompt and informative responses!
I'd say skip the fighter completely, or hybrid with a striker. With a wizard and invoker, you should have so much control that defending is pointless. Do more damage to the controlled targets and end the combat quickly.
Do more damage to the controlled targets and end the combat quickly.


So ... play a fighter or invoker?
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thespaceinvader quoth:
it's also worth noting that you can make RBAs with STR and one-handed weapons.  bows are almost  completely wasted on a fighter.


i was of that opinion but the thing about marking on a miss had me thinking.


Far, FAR better to mark on a hit than on a miss ;)
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
'Quoth the themaltesefalcon "Never more".'
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
jugulator007 quoth:
i'd say skip the fighter completely, or hybrid with a striker. with a wizard and invoker, you should have so much control that defending is pointless. do more damage to the controlled targets and end the combat quickly.


the controllers are not keen on playing well with others. sadly, certain player choices are often tactically...suboptimal, shall we say.

thespaceinvader quoth:
far, far better to mark on a hit than on a miss ;)


fair point. :>

again, my thanks all, you have been very helpful.
I know you don't have access to all the books and such but i will recommend you get a DDI sub. Beyond that if you really want to do ranged marking Paladin would be a better choice or if you can go for a Swordmage.