Five Stars Five Strikes questions

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hey everyone !  So I just got the boon on my avenger and I have some questions..  The power reads:

Five Stars Five Strikes
Utility Power  (Encounter): Move action
Effect:  You move up to your speed.  If your next melee attack this turn hits, roll four extra attack rolls (using the same modifier as the initial attack roll) and deal 1d8 extra damage to the creature you hit for each of the extra attack rolls that hits.


So here are my questions and what I believe could be possible answers:

Q1:  As an Avenger I can make use of Oath of Enmity.  Do I get double rolls for each of the four extra attacks granted by this power ?  I am inclined to say yes because they are melee attacks.  I am meeting the requirements of OoE.

Q2:  If I crit on the extra attacks, is it a real crit or not ?  I am inclined to say no because the power does not have any keywords, such as the weapon keyword.  The only reason I get my usual attack modifier is because the power specifically states that I do.  That does not mean that I get anything else however.

Q3:  If I crit on the attack that triggers the 4 extra, are the 1d8's granted by FSFS automatically maxed ?  This is a tricky one, hitting with the triggering attack doesn't give you the 1d8's automatically.  It gives you the extra attacks and if you would have missed all 4 you wouldn't have gotten them at all.  For this reason I am inclined to say no.  You can't max out dice that you were not guaranteed to get as a regular hit.  This is not sneak attack for example.

Q4:  If I have any ability that triggers off hitting or dealing damage.  Can it be triggered by FSFS ?  I am inclined to say yes to things that trigger off hitting but not things that trigger off damage.


I'm sure there's more questions to be asked but at 4 am I can't think of anything else ;)  TY for any input.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

While we're asking for rules cites that don't exist...

I crit with a +5 Vicious Fullblade with Prismatic Strike.  How much damage did I do?  3[W]+3*Int+3*Static, all maxed, of course.   But do I add in 8d12?  Or 24d12?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

as a further question to ask:

Q5: does FSFS trigger Pervasive Light ?  After some discussion I believe the answer is yes.  The requirement of PL is that you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant with an attack that does not deal radiant damage.  The fact that FSFS states that it is "extra" attacks on top of the triggering one means that I would look at the triggering attack and see if it was radiant or not.  If not, then each extra attack landed would trigger PL since we've met the requirements.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

1) I'd say no, since the additional attack rolls are not melee attacks.

2) I'd say yes and no, since the additional attack rolls are simply attack rolls to determine how many extra damage are dealt by the original attack, it could be a critical hit technically but since attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit, then it wouldn't deal any more damage. I assume it could trigger other effects though.

3) I'd say yes, since those d8 would be damage rolled otherwise and a crit max them out. 

4) I'd say yes, since they are attack roll that can hit or miss.

5) Pervasive Light would have no effect because attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit, and the attacks don't deal any damage, their results allow to deal extra damage rather. 

While we're asking for rules cites that don't exist...

I crit with a +5 magic Fullblade with Prismatic Strike.  How much damage did I do?  3[W]+3*Int+3*Static, all maxed, of course.   But do I add in 8d12?  Or 24d12?


I'd say 15d6+36+mods

EDIT Oops I forgot to add High Crit it would be 9d12+15d6+36+mods

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

1) I'd say no, since the additional attack rolls are not melee attacks.

2) I'd say yes and no, since the additional attack rolls are simply attack rolls to determine how many extra damage are dealt by the original attack, it could be a critical hit technically but since attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit, then it wouldn't deal any more damage. I assume it could trigger other effects though.

3) I'd say yes, since those d8 would be damage rolled otherwise and a crit max them out. 

4) I'd say yes, since they are attack roll that can hit or miss.

5) Pervasive Light would have no effect because attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit, and the attacks don't deal any damage, their results allow to deal extra damage rather. 

While we're asking for rules cites that don't exist...

I crit with a +5 magic Fullblade with Prismatic Strike.  How much damage did I do?  3[W]+3*Int+3*Static, all maxed, of course.   But do I add in 8d12?  Or 24d12?


I'd say 15d6+36+mods  [12+5d6+12+5d6+12+5d6]



1)  So if I use overwhelming strike which triggers FSFS, I'm not making melee attacks ?  I'd say because they are extra attacks they count as melee since the triggering power is melee range.

3)  hitting with the triggering attack does not give you the extra d8's of FSFS.  You still have to roll the extra attacks from it to get them, so if you miss all 4 you were never going to get them out of regular hit.  Because of this I don't believe they can be maxed by a crit. 

4) hit yes, damage no.

5)  The attacks do deal damage, they deal 1d8 extra damage per attack that hits.  Damage is damage no ?  But more importantly the extra attacks only have to hit, not deal damage.  And they are extra attacks to the triggering attack, which can or not deal radiant.  It's the question of if the extra attacks are unique or become part of the triggering attack.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

1) The triggering power type has nothing to do with FSFS's attacks, it only use the same mods as the initial attack roll, with conditional modifiers such as CA etc..i assume.

2) Criting with Riposte Strike does not deal SA extra damage unless its applied neither, but if it is, its maxed, i see it same way, its just that the attacks determine how many d8 extra damage can be added to the other attack's damage.

3) Yup

4) No FSFS attacks do not deal damage, FSFS Hits produce an effect granting the ability to deal extra damage to the other attack's damage its added to.

Extra Damage: Many powers and other effects grant the ability to deal extra damage.

You can view it this way if you prefer:

Attack: Wisdom vs AC; 4 attacks
Hit: The triggering attack deal 1d8 extra damage to the creature.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

it would be 9d12+15d6+36+mods

Meant Vicious instead of Magic to make it all the same Die type... sorry.  So 24dice in this example.

I'm not sure I agree?
Maximum Damage: When an attack scores a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. [...]
Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage dealt on a critical hit by contributing extra damage.

There, that's the rules in its entirety.

I want to emphacize this point: That quote above is all I can find in the RC that is rules text (and not explanatory examples, or clarifications about crit dice getting maximized) on critical hits.  So from that ONE FRIGGING LINE we're trying to answer these questions.

Notice the maximum damage is relevant to the "attack", but the bonus damage is relevant to the "hit".  So I guess you can say "Prismatic Strike has three hit lines, so each one of those does extra damage"?  That's the argument?

So lets choose a different example.  Thundering Howl.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You then howl in a blast 3 that includes the target. Each enemy in the blast takes 1d6 thunder damage and is pushed 1 square

.Both damage instances are in the Hit line, is that two applications of Crit bonus damage?  What if that 2nd instance were in an effect line, would that change things?

The Critical Hit glossary of HotFC:
If a character scores a critical hit with a magic weapon or implement, or with a high crit weapon, the item causes the attack to deal a specific amount of extra damage (or to impose some special effect).

That looks much better to me, because it's the "attack" that deals the extra damage.  Now, attack could either be a d20 roll, or a power, so using this text there's an argument that critting on an AoE does bonus damage to everyone.  But if you ignore that, you get "1d20 roll comes up 20, one instance of extra damage", which is IMHO a better rule.

And, of course, that's not RC.  That's just a different definition published at just about the same time as the RC, that's clearer in some ways.

*cry*

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Vicious you mean, ok that explains. Like i said i'd say each Hit line against the target is a crit of its own. Wether the same roll is used to compared against all three DEF or each roll are seperate 20's rolled its the same. I think its handled similar to how Split The Tree resolve, just against the same target instead of two;

Hit (Fortitude): 8d12+12+mods thunder damage, and you knock the target prone.
Hit (Reflex): 8d12+12+mods force damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. The target can’t stand up from prone until the end of your next turn.
Hit (Will): 8d12+12+mods
 fire damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.


For Thundering How, only the target is subject to the critical hit IMO as described in the entry. The blast is not against a target who's defense was compared to the critical hit roll (except the target itself since its included). Similarly, if you crit a creature with a Area Burst while only hitting some others, only the target crit takes max + extra damage for exemple even if its one damage roll for all of them.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Basically... "Citation needed".  How are you getting to that from the rules as documented?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Sure. From Prismatic Strike, it says that the The target might be hit up to three times and there is 3 seperate Hit lines:

EPG 56 Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. You make one attack roll and compare the result against all three defenses. The target might be hit up to three times, depending on which defenses are hit.
Hit (Fortitude): 1[W] + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you knock the target prone.
Hit (Reflex): 1[W] + Intelligence modifier force damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. The target can’t stand up from prone until the end of your next turn.
Hit (Will): 1[W] + Intelligence modifier fire damage, and the target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.

 
And since attacks work in a way that each attack roll result is compared to the target's defense and dealt damage and other effects accordingly, then it means Prismatic Strike can effectively hit 3 times.
RC 214 Making Attacks:     

1. Choose Power   
2. Choose Targets    
3 . Make Attack roll    
4. Compare Attack roll to target Defense and see if it Hit or Miss    
5. If the attack Hit, deal damage and other effects.    
6. If the attack has more than one target, repeat step 3 through 5 for each of them.


And since the 20 is compared against all 3 of the target's defenses and can score 3 hits, it can also score 3 critical hits and when that happens, the target takes the maximum damage possible for each hit in addition to all appropriate critical hit extra damage.
RC 216 Natural 20: When an attack roll against a target gets a natural 20, the power not only automatically hits the target, but also scores a critical hit if the attack roll result is high enough to hit the target’s defense. If the result is too low to hit the defense, the power still hits the target automatically, but without scoring a critical hit.

Maximum Damage: When an attack scores a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don’t make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. However, attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage dealt on a critical hit by contributing extra damage. If this extra damage is a die roll, it is not automatically maximum damage; roll the specified dice and add the result to the critical hit’s damage.

 
So it means you make one attack roll and compare the result against all three defenses. The target might be hit (and thus Crit) up to three times, depending on which defenses are hit. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter