Skills, Trained, Untrained, Class Skills

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So this probably sounds like a newbie question, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this.  For example, can a Druid with no ranks in Knowledge (nature) not even attempt that skill check?  That sounds really, really stupid, considering it is a class skill for them, but my friend/DM says thats right.  Reading the passage about Untrained Skills makes me think that is wrong.  It's on their class skill list, and even if they have no ranks in it, their general knowledge (Int mod) should still allow them to make the check, just like if you have no ranks in Climb, you can still use you Str mod to make the check.  It just wouldn't be as good.
Some skill REQUIRE you to "be trained" in them to even attempt a roll.  I know Use Magic Device and I believe spellcraft are two of them.  I do not believe that the Knowledge skills require you to be trained in order to roll them.  Note that to be trained in a skill you just need one rank in that skill and you are "trained" even if you are a 20th-level cahracter.

I should verify that Knowledge is NOT a trained only skill but I believe you can make the Knowledge check untrained using only your INT modifier as a bonus to the d20.

Edit:

 Ok, looked up the Knowledge Skill in the SRD.  It appears that the Knowledge skills ARE "Trained Only" skills.  The catch is:

Untrained

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

So if the DC would be 10 or lower (and this may be why you "take 10" on checks) you can "roll" a Knowledge check using only your INT modifier.  If the target DC is higher then 10 you officially need at least one rank in the Knowledge skill in order to attempt the roll.
 
Edit 2:  Darn it draco.  I just edited my post because Knowledge is a "trained only" skill when it comes to harder DC.  So I was right and I was wrong at the same time although I did you the words "I believe" and "should verify" just to point out that I wasn't absolutely certain about the outcome.
 

Some skills (like Climb) can be used untrained.  Some, like all the Knowledge skills and Use Magic Device, cannot*.  The list in the PHB which shows all the skills also shows which ones can be used untrained.  In this case, your DM is correct.

*There are a few ways to make untrained checks, but those can be kind of involved, so I'm just giving you the general/default rule.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Derp.  Steven is right.  (Check the very bottom.)
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
An untrained Knowledge check is just an Intelligence check, which kind of explains why only common knowledge can be recalled without training.

Knowledge, I think, is the only skill with that "extra uses for trained users" thing in 3.5 without a feat, item, or class feature providing it. Star Wars: Saga Edition uses that effect much more liberally.



To head off one of the next questions, I'd like to say there are two different meanings of the term "class skill". The term only matters during the process of building or levelling up a character, and the distinction only matters if you're multiclassing.
-A skill is a "class skill" for your current class if it appears on the class' list. Skills on that list are purchased at a rate of 1 point per 1 rank. Spending points on skills that are not on that list costs 2 points for 1 rank (even if that skill appears on the skill list of another class you have - i.e. a Rogue who gains levels in Fighter needs to spend 2 points per rank of Open Lock when he levels as a fighter, but only 1 point per rank when he levels as a Rogue.)
-A skill is a "class skill" for your character if it appears on the list of any class that the character has. This governs the maximum rank he can have in a skill - his character level +3 if the skill is on the list of at least one class that he has, or one-half this amount if the skill is not on any of those lists.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

3.5: Definitive Shopping List (gear guide PDF)

 

5e Eberron homebrew rules (PDF) (Artificer, Warforged, Changeling, Kalashtar, Shifter, Dragonmarks) | Discussion thread

So let me see if I have this straight.  Anyone can make a Knowledge check as long as the DC is 10 or lower.  A Druid who has Knowledge (nature) as a class skill cannot make a Knoweldge (nature) check if he has no ranks in it and the DC is higher than 10.  But as long as he has at least 1 rank in said class skill, he can make the check for any DC?

The part that is/was confusing me is this, right out of the PH:  Many skills can be used only by someone who is trained in them.  If you don't have Spellcraft, for example, you just don't know enough about magic even to attempt to identify a spell...

I think have is the optimal word there that is bugging me.  Druids HAVE Knowledge (nature) on their class skill list.  I could understand it being untrained for say a figher for example, but this is a druid we're talking about.  They are all about nature, have the skill on their class skill list, and a class bonus to that Knowledge specifically.  Yet if they don't have one measly rank put in it, they don't know jack about nature apparently.  
A "class skill" is not necessarily a "trained skill" although it is usually easier to train a 'class skill' then it is a non-class skill.

To put things another way EVERYONE starts off with the exact same "training" when it comes to skills which is to say they don't have any.  However, adding skill points to a given skill represents training in that skill.  Some skills are easier to learn for some characters (class skills) then it is for others but all can learn a given skill and if it is a "trained only" skill everyone still has access to it.

If you are worried about your Druid just make sure you put a single skill point in the Knowledge skills you desire and you can roll whenever.  Just because druids have Knowledge (Nature) on there class list means that all druids care about the things covered by "Knowledge (nature)" skill and thus they may choose not to train in it.
 
Pretty much. You don't HAVE the skill until you've put skill points into it.
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I THINK it still counts as being trained even if you only have 1/2 rank (like a Druid putting 1 skill point into Knowledge (Arcana)). The reason I say this is that there is a feat that allows you to make trained Knowledge checks "as if you have 1/2 rank". I believe it's Elf Dilettante from Races of the Wild.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Dang, well thanks for the help everyone.  That clears it up for me.  Now I'll have to listen to my DM gloat.Undecided
So let me see if I have this straight.  Anyone can make a Knowledge check as long as the DC is 10 or lower.  A Druid who has Knowledge (nature) as a class skill cannot make a Knoweldge (nature) check if he has no ranks in it and the DC is higher than 10.  But as long as he has at least 1 rank in said class skill, he can make the check for any DC?

That is correct.

The part that is/was confusing me is this, right out of the PH:  Many skills can be used only by someone who is trained in them.  If you don't have Spellcraft, for example, you just don't know enough about magic even to attempt to identify a spell...

I think have is the optimal word there that is bugging me.  Druids HAVE Knowledge (nature) on their class skill list.  


This is a bit of confusion between being trained in the skill, and the skill being a class skill (by either definition, see above).  I think the wording is odd because it's probably cribbed from AD&D (where skills were 'nonweapon proficiencies' and you either had them or didn't, sort of like how 4e and Saga only have "not trained" and "trained").

I could understand it being untrained for say a figher for example, but this is a druid we're talking about.  They are all about nature, have the skill on their class skill list, and a class bonus to that Knowledge specifically.  Yet if they don't have one measly rank put in it, they don't know jack about nature apparently.  


Let's put this in perspective.

Remember that the average ability array has a 13 as its highest score, and that the vast majority of the world is 1st level and, rarely, 2nd. 

An average commoner (1st level, +0 Intelligence modifier) is asked something specific about the natural world, something that would require more than practical knowledge to fully answer. He's got a 50% chance of knowing that (needs to roll a 10 or higher).
A scholarly sage (2nd level, Old age, 15 Intelligence (was 13 to start)) is asked the same question. He hasn't specifically studied the area, but he's got a good enough memory and pattern recognition that he stands a better chance of inferring or remembering the answer simply from his better mind -  60%, in fact.
A neophyte druid (1st level, 10 intelligence, no ranks in Knowledge: Nature) is asked the same question. While she may not have heard of the specific name  (Quick! What is  Acherontia atropos?*), she's got a nature sense that's beyond what others may possess. She's got a 60% chance of knowing it - as good as the sage, despite not having any exposure to the area at all.
An initiate druid (as the neophyte, but 1 rank in the skill) can be only as intelligent as the commoner and have a better chance of knowing the answer as the scholarly, old sage, as well as being able to try to figure out questions that are far beyond what that sage has ever heard of.

A druidic teacher (2nd level, 5 ranks in the skill, Skill Focus, Old age, 12 Intelligence (was 10 to start)) has a 100% chance of knowing that piece of common knowledge if you stop him on the street and ask. At his best (with his order's lorebooks (+2 circumstance) and discussion with his peers (Aid Another)), he can answer questions of DC 35 - something the DMG considers "Heroic", and something more difficult than leaping over a 30' chasm, turning someone from a stranger on the street to a close ally who'll take risks to help you after you talk to them for a minute, or seeing a stationary invisible creature. And that's without any magic involved.

Just because they don't automatically succeed on the check doesn't mean they aren't good. (The link above? See what it has to say about Craft. Dwarves are renowned at the forge because they can do things on their own that a human requires perfect tools or an assistant to do.)

*
So, you didn't recognize Acherontia atropos? What if I called it the death's head moth, which is well enough known to appear in places ranging from Keats to Dracula to The Silence of the Lambs? And is pretty much the only insect that squeaks?

Oh, what's that? You just used Wikipedia to find that out? How is Wikipedia not the perfect tool (+2, same as Nature Sense) for Knowledge checks? :p

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

3.5: Definitive Shopping List (gear guide PDF)

 

5e Eberron homebrew rules (PDF) (Artificer, Warforged, Changeling, Kalashtar, Shifter, Dragonmarks) | Discussion thread

we had the same discussion in our round 1 year ago. Our conclusion was that being druid not necessary means you are interesed in nature. the skills ae one kind of customization(hope the word is written right). So you can have for example a druid with a vermin as companion living underground in a cavern since birth. he wont have heard anything about nature in hia entire life ans though have no ranls in nature
Yay Tempest for "real world" examples! Woot!  Yeah, that makes much more sense now.  I guess I just assumed that a starting druid had usually been exposed to a decent amount of teaching before going adventuring, but that is just how I picture it.
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