Prime Speaker Zegana + draw card question

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
if my opponent controls a 3/3 token, then Prime Speaker Zegana will come into play as a 4/4 creature and draw 4 cards.

in response draw card trigger ability, I murder the Prime Speaker Zegana, will my opponent still draw 4 cards?

thanks

Orgg



Prime Speaker Zegana


Legendary Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Prime Speaker Zegana enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is the greatest power among other creatures you control.
When Prime Speaker Zegana enters the battlefield, draw cards equal to its power.


 
I don't think you can Murder her until she's on the battlefield, and the draw occurs when she enters the battlefield.  So yes, I believe card draw would occur.
please mark threads about GTC with spoiler

he will still draw 4 cards
if you used Dismember instead of Murder he wouldn't draw any cards
proud member of the 2011 community team
I don't think you can Murder her until she's on the battlefield

correct
and the draw occurs when she enters the battlefield.

incorrect, it happens when the trigger resolves some time after she entered the field
So yes, I believe card draw would occur.

the trigger will use LKI on Zegana as she last existed on the field to determine the cards drawn
death by Murder would mean 4 cards

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Thanks guys for the answer.


I have a follow up question.


If my opponent cast a second Prime Speaker Zegana, both Prime Speaker Zegana will die. He still will draw 5 cards. Is this correct?


Thanks


Orgg




Yes that is correct.
MTG Rules Advisor
I don't think you can Murder her until she's on the battlefield

correct
and the draw occurs when she enters the battlefield.

incorrect, it happens when the trigger resolves some time after she entered the field
So yes, I believe card draw would occur.

the trigger will use LKI on Zegana as she last existed on the field to determine the cards drawn
death by Murder would mean 4 cards



OK.  I'm confused.  If the card says "When [Name] enters the battlefield, do X", how does that not happen until "the trigger resolves some time after" entering the field?  Not trying to be a dick, I just don't understand.  "When [Name] enters" seems like a pretty definite time to me.



OK.  I'm confused.  If the card says "When [Name] enters the battlefield, do X", how does that not happen until "the trigger resolves some time after" entering the field?



Well, it generally isn't much time.

603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.

603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

608. Resolving Spells and Abilities

608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves. (See rule 609, "Effects.")

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Uh-oh.  After that explanation I'm still not any less confused...Embarassed
abilities generally don't do anything when put on the stack
they need to resolve to do something, and every player gets opportunity to respond to the ability before that happens
proud member of the 2011 community team
the triggered ability triggers when (at the exact moment that) Zegana enters the field

the trigger goes on the stack moments later (but not exactly the same time)
eg. let's say you put Zegana on the field with Unburial Rites, she's put on the field as Rites is resolving, but the trigger doesn't enter the stack until after Rites fully finishes resolving, though her trigger did trigger while Rites was resolving

the trigger resolves and the cards are drawn a bit after that (after someone has time to respond with Murder and there's even time for Murder to resolve)

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Ok.  So, in the case you describe, there would be (at least) two chances to respond, right?  You could counter Unburial Rites with something, or choose to let it resolve and then after Zegana resolves (and therefore her triggered ability resolves), play something in response.

If you chose to let Zegana enter the field, you could then Murder her.  In this case, her last known power was 4 and the player who put her on the field will get to draw 4 cards.

If you chose to let Zegana enter the field, you respond with as Enigma256 suggested with Dismember, Zegana gets -5/-5 giving her a resultant P/T of -1/-1.  In this case her last known power was -1, so the player who put her on thefield will get to draw 0 cards.

Getting there?
choose to let it resolve and then after Zegana resolves (and therefore her triggered ability resolves) 

STOP RIGHT THERE!

these are two distinct events - the trigger triggering and the trigger resolving
(actually there's a third distinct event between the two of them: the trigger entering the stack)

Zegana enters the field and her ability triggers..... but it doesn't do anything yet

at the first available opportunity, the trigger goes on the stack (just like a spell would when you cast it)
in this case, after Rites finishes resolving

now players can respond to the trigger on the stack (like they can respond to a spell)
say with a Voidslime to counter the trigger

after all players pass with that trigger as the top object on the stack, it finally resolves
and then finally cards are drawn as it's resolving

also note: Zegana doesn't resolve when put on the field by Rites, only spells and abilities resolve
she wasn't cast as a spell (she's merely put on the field from the yard) and she's not an ability 

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Ah.  OK.  Between trigger triggering and trigger resolving is where players can respond.

I know you all said that like three times already!!!  Just took me a minute to catch on...
Hm, one bit I am missing, is why you can't murder her, but you can dismember her.

Namely, they both target the enemy creature as it enters the field.

So, the spell resolves, and enters the battlefield, card drawing trigger goes on the stack. Now, you can cast both murder and dismember on her, while the ability is on the stack, and they will resolve before the CDT resolves. In both cases, she dies while the trigger is still on the stack, so I am assuming that just because the creature dies, doesnt mean its triggered ability is kept from resolving.

In the murder case ( Cool) , when a creature dies, it loses the counters on it, so would be reduced back to a 1/1 and thus when the trigger checks for the power of the card in order to resolve, it should only draw you 1 card as the counters are knocked off by the murder.
In the dismemberment case, just about the same thing happens; her power and toughness is reduced and she dies, then the abilty resolves. However, whle her P/T on the board would be -1/-1, she is dead by the point we need to resolve the trigger, and it is my impression that once a card goes into the graveyard, it is no longer a -1/-1, but would instead revert to the basic 1/1 on the card, as the card is already dead by the time it is time to check against the p/t for the CDT.

Can anyone untangle this? :S
You can do either one. If you murder Zegana, the Last Known Information is whatever the power and toughness was as the spell resolved. While Murder oves her to the graveyard and she does lose those counters, she probably -had- counters while she was on the battlefield and that's the information the game will use.

If you Dismember Zegana and she drops to 0 toughness or less, she will be put into the graveyard as a state-based action. When the game looks at Last Known Info to see what she looked like at her last point on the field, it will see 0 or less toughness and let you draw that many cards when the ability resolves (basically, you won't draw any)

It's the same way a Mogg Fanatic equipped with a Basilisk Collar deals lifelink and deathtouch damage even if it's sacrificed and in the graveyard. When the ability resolves, the game looks back for LKI and sees what it looked like on the battlefield.

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

Hm, one bit I am missing, is why you can't murder her, but you can dismember her.

Namely, they both target the enemy creature as it enters the field.

Murder and Dismember both target a creature, which means a permanent on the battlefield with the Creature type. You can cast either at Zegana after she resolves.

By this time (a) she has gained counters from her own static ability (unless she's the only creature you control, of course) and her triggered ability has fired and been put on the stack.

So, the spell resolves, and enters the battlefield, card drawing trigger goes on the stack. Now, you can cast both murder and dismember on her, while the ability is on the stack, and they will resolve before the CDT resolves. In both cases, she dies while the trigger is still on the stack, so I am assuming that just because the creature dies, doesnt mean its triggered ability is kept from resolving.

That is correct, yes. An ability on the stack is completely independent of its source, unless something makes it check the source.

In the murder case ( ) , when a creature dies, it loses the counters on it, so would be reduced back to a 1/1 and thus when the trigger checks for the power of the card in order to resolve, it should only draw you 1 card as the counters are knocked off by the murder.

This is where you are going wrong.

Murder causes the creature to leave the battlefield. Since the creature is now dead, we check the gamestate the creature last existed in and determine its power. At that point the creature's power was still affected by the counters. Therefore you draw a number of cards equal to that power.

In the dismemberment case, just about the same thing happens; her power and toughness is reduced and she dies, then the abilty resolves. However, whle her P/T on the board would be -1/-1, she is dead by the point we need to resolve the trigger, and it is my impression that once a card goes into the graveyard, it is no longer a -1/-1, but would instead revert to the basic 1/1 on the card, as the card is already dead by the time it is time to check against the p/t for the CDT.

Again, since Zegana is dead, you check the last gamestate in which she was still on the battlefield. This is the gamestate after Dismember has fully resolved, but before the subsequent SBA check that will cause her to drop dead of negative toughness. At that point her power will be less than zero, so you draw that many cards - ie none.

Still blessed by Julia of Hillsdown. M:tG Rules Adviser You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
Awesome answers both of you!

Also, quite interesting how simic causes a LOT of rules questions before even being released.

Hm. Another thing to make sure I got this right;

You cast her,ability goes on the stack, she gets dismembered, I respond with a Simic charm ("Choose one - Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn; or return target creature to its owner's hand.") to toss her back onto my own hand, she still gives full amount of cards, since that was her last state, correct?

But, this also means that I can put the trigger on the stack, and pump her with +3+3 to draw 3 extra cards before she resolved, right?

And, in the case of the bouncing her back in response to the enemy spell, since she still needs to enter the battlefield for any of this to happen, she will trigger evolution in spite of the bounce, and the evolution triggers on other creatures should happen in spite of the dismember, since the evolution trigger checks for power when she enters, aka before the dismember can be cast on her, and thus her power going lower shouldnt affect evolve since that was already checked for before, correct?

E.g, I cast her, she enters as a 5/5 ( i have a biomancer in play, so 2 counters + 2 from his power and her own 1 power), they cast dismember. But since she was 5/5 when she entered, I put the evolve trigger for my 2/4 on the stack right away, even if she later turns into a 0/0, and since her entering the battlefield is when you check for the trigger, and not when the evolve resolves, her going 0/0 later should not affect that trigger at all, right?
You cast her,ability goes on the stack, she gets dismembered, I respond with a Simic charm ("Choose one - Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn; or return target creature to its owner's hand.") to toss her back onto my own hand, she still gives full amount of cards, since that was her last state, correct?

right
But, this also means that I can put the trigger on the stack, and pump her with +3+3 to draw 3 extra cards before she resolved, right?

right
And, in the case of the bouncing her back in response to the enemy spell, since she still needs to enter the battlefield for any of this to happen, she will trigger evolution in spite of the bounce, and the evolution triggers on other creatures should happen in spite of the dismember, since the evolution trigger checks for power when she enters, aka before the dismember can be cast on her, and thus her power going lower shouldnt affect evolve since that was already checked for before, correct?

we need to wait for the complete rules of Evolve for that, but I suspect that the power is rechecked on resolution, so if it is no longer higher than the evolving creature it will do nothing

proud member of the 2011 community team
The draw trigger checks her power when it resolves, if she's not on the field at that time, it looks at what her power was at the the last moment she was on the field.

If someone casts Dismember at her and it resolves and her toughness drops to 0 or less, she'll die before anyone can do anything, however, players can respond to Dismember being cast with Simic Charm, so yes, you could bounce her to your hand and her power would be frozen at that moment in time for her trigger, you could give her +3/+3 which might save her from the Dismember, but would likely cause you to draw fewer cards for her trigger or you could give her hexproof and Dismember would be countered.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Sign In to post comments