Almost competitive mill for legacy!

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I'm getting close to building a milling deck that can actually beat decks in legacy.

It might not get to the top yet, but it's getting closer.

BACKGROUND STORY:

I love mill, and have a small archive on cards that mill, and how fast.
I also play legacy every tuesday at a place with very pro contenders with perhaps 80% of the decks being the newest netdecks.

So recently I made an archive of topdecks to follow their developements and try to figure some new decks out, like making modifications to zombardment, which is on the rise. Stuff like that.

Then I Tried out three of the major decks against my mill, (Stoneblade, american bug, and canadian thresh) and realized that I could mill them for a lot more than I originally thought.

I made some serious tests after that, specifically against a stoneblade with lingering souls (They would be milled into the grave, so it would be the harder deck to beat)   

It went so well that I decided to take the deck to a tournament.

There I discovered that it could actually defeat goblins and infect (Infect due to sideboard) The deck was that fast, which made me think a lot. I also played against WW with jotun grunt and got close, and a strix-bug version without the cascader.

So I went home with these experiences and tested some more.

After many tests I decided that canadian thresh is the hardest to beat, with goyf and nimble supported by my mill, and with more counters than the other two decks.

I then analysed how fast the canadian can be, and decided that I would be dead on opponents turn 5 and decided to make that into an average:

Then I tested the speed of a lot of milling cards, to see how much they could mill on exactly five turns, and I was surprised to see that I'd made the right conclusions with the original deck (I had tested against the stoneblade at 7 turns as the limit)

And with the exception of two sets of cards I had the "perfect mill" (I needed to get 4 mind sculp and 4 tome scour.

So I got the tome scours and wanted to see how much faster the whole thing is now.

Here is the list and the averages:
(Measured within 5 turns)

25 basic lands:
4 Archive trap 13
4 Glimpse the unthinkable 10
4 Dream twist 5.57
4 Shriekhorn 5.52
4 mesmeric orb 5.4
4 brain freeze 5.1
4 tome scour 5
4 thought scour 4.6 (Special measure)
3 vision charm 4

The average game of 5 turns the opponents deck has 18 cards left in their deck!

18 cards left is actually a lot.

Against a goldfish it's 13 cards left.

It has to be said that I play with the canadian thresh, knowing exactly how the mill works, and how to beat it, and I generally play it with the knowledge of knowing not to use too much fetch without having a counter against archive trap in my hand.

Both the goblin and the infect player were surprised at the speed of the deck. I got the goblin player to 15, 10 and 5 cards left in library without the use of sideboard (We had some fun games after) and with only 4 darkblasts from the sideboard I won 1 of the games and had also had won the third game if only I had got a swamp on the opening hand.

WHY THESE CARDS?:

ARCHIVE TRAP: (AVG 13)
The whole use of 25 lands is because of this card. I wanted to be able to hit hard and early on players using fetch, since no serious legacy player expects archive trap in a maindeck (Or board for that sake) I have been thinking of replacing it with the lesser costing mind funeral (Averages a mill of 14.1 against decks with 18 lands) because it will allow me to play a little less lands and I could gain 1-3 other millcards in the deal. To the defence of the card it has to be said that the number of times it was in hand i was able to cast it at turn 5 a little less than 2 thirds of the time.

GLIMPSE THE UNTHINKABLE: (AVG 10)
A great card, but it forces the deck to be black, which does give me some troubles because I only use basics in the deck. Only sad thing about it, is that it isn't an instant.

DREAM TWIST:  (AVG 5.57)
A testament to R&D's improved view on mill, it complements mesmeric orb, and because of it's flashback it often lets me use up ALL of my mana (I'm a fan of mana optimization) Since it's an instant it does wonders with brain freeze during an opponents turn. Against the goblin I played two twists, and he responded with one REB, making the freeze mill 12.

SHRIEK HORN: (AVG 5.52)
I used to think that it would end up in too many situations where it would be drawn the turn before I died, but it's averages are that good. Originally the deck was made with thoughts on implementing surgical extraction somewhere, so all the 1 cost cards are there to give me a chance to extract something important. 2 cards is not that much, but it's better than 0. And the averages of the card is so much better than most other mill.

MESMERIC ORB: (AVG 5.4)
If the game draws out, it's really nasty, and even if it only lasts 5 turns it's averages are good enough to earn it a place in the deck. Colorlessness helps the deck, and it works with the dream twists as well. The canadian threshold is actually one of the decks that are hit extra hard with this card, with an average of 8. The average to test the card in general was taken from a total average against all three of the main testdecks, of which stoneblade is the hardest to handle with the orb.

BRAIN FREEZE: (AVG 5.1)
From time to time an oponent casts nothing, and I have to cast it alone to mill only three cards. It's averages does ensure it a place in the deck though. Can be quite nasty when opponent plays some cards during his or her turn. It does need a heavy amount of mana to work, which is the main reason why I havent cut down on the mana and thrown archive trap out.

TOME SCOUR: (AVG 5)
Sadly not an instant. But good as a first drop when I've sided surgical extraction into the deck.

THOUGHT SCOUR: (AVG 4.6)
It's average is based on the cards it draws into. They would be higher if the deck had less lands.
I do have some serious doubts about the card, but so far the doubts always ends when brainfreeze is involved, or when I have a lot of spare mana and want to see if I can draw something better than the mill at hand. It can deliver some heavy stuff, but when it fails I have usually cast it with that chance in mind. It also allows the deck to start quite often with 1 land in hand, following up with another land and a 2 cost the next turn. It somehow works toward mana optimization, and I like that.  

VISION CHARM: (AVG 4)
It's the worst average, but it's never changing. On the other hand it has potential to stall some nasty artisfacts, or even disrupt a valakut/scapeshift combo by changing certain lands into islands or something similarly rude. And it's okay with surgical extraction after sideboard.
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WHY SHOULD YOU BOTHER:

Well if you don't involve yourself, I would be alone on designing a mill to beat legacy, and odds are that I would fail due to the workload of it all.

On the other hand, mill might twist the meta in a direction your decks want, so you could involve yourself with that in mind.

If you've tried to mill legacy yourself you should defenitely involve yourself, because a lot of millers might exchange just the info needed to mill the last 18 cards before turn 5 or, alternately stall the game long enough to mill the 18 the usual way.

For those with a background in mill, as well as those without I can deliver some info:

THE ARTIFACT VERSION:
At a time I tested grinding station to see if it could outdo mesmeric orb, and it can, but demands that there are more artifacts in the deck.

PRO'S:
More artifacts fixes the balance of mana.
Lands like ancient tomb, wasteland and darksteel citadel might be of use.

CON's:
Artifacts are currently hated, and so opponents may have cards against you.

THE BLUE VERSION:
I have thought of replacing glimpse the unthinkable with mind sculp, to fix the problems with the mana. This would also allow the use of ancient tomb too speed up the turn I can play archive trap.

PRO's:
Nothing is changed too much and there would be less trouble with the mana.

CON's:
Since most of the sideboard is black it would need to be replaced with blue cards.

MIND FUNERAL AND ARCHIVE TRAP:
Making the mana even messier is not the best idea, but by removing vision charm from the deck to play with mind funeral in it's place actually speeds the deck up by giving it an average of 11.9 cards left in an opponents deck. (aganst goldfish) Mind funeral is avg 14.1 which is better than archive trap.

OTHER MILL:

Codex shredder got avg 3.3 and was out of the list because of that, however, this was because the measure was based on 5 turns only. If a game draws out, the shredder does mill some more and might give you that needed extra card late game.

Ghoulcallers bell has the same averages as codex shredder, so I forgot it's interaction with dream twist. It's something that could be measured later, to see if it somehow improves the overall mill of the deck.

trapmakers snare is only good against fetch or someone stupid if you play with ghost quarters. And legacy players are generally not that moronic, so having 4 snares in the sideboard ruins the sideboarding against other decktypes than fetchland heavy decks.

chronic flooding was tried out, because I wanted to see how archive trap would work if an opponent had their lands enchanted so he would be milled or forced to fetch. It has been the absolute worst card I have ever tested in my milling projects. Even decks with 18 lands can avoid tapping some of their lands AND still go on playing. avg 0.70 is the result. I cannot deny that some version of mill that taps lands might do it, but I'm not going there yet...

SIDEBOARD:

So far I have used 4 darkblast and 4 surgical extraction as the key concept.
I couldn't find my 4 innocent blood, so they were never involved.

I have thought of tormods crypt, as it would be able to boost brainfreeze some times, and dream twists could be removed as it's "spot" because they would get a worser avg and be on the "remove from deck"-spot anyways.

In case it should go blue, curfew might replace the function of darkblast/innnocent blood.
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LAST WORDS:

Since none of the tests mentioned in this monster of a text, have been played after sideboard I would welcome any input that anyone have on how canadian thresh, or american bug would sideboard against this milling project.

I have actually made all tests against stoneblade after sideboard, to make the deck harder to defeat. Any input there will also be valued so I will know if I made any wrong board options.

I will participate in another tournament at sunday, and will let you know the result.

WDM



There are three forms of mill-to-win that are competitive in Legacy at the moment, unless I'm completely mistaken.  Granted they're built off of different archetypes ot styles of play, but the win-condition still stands:

Grindstone (any colour)
Helm of Obedience ( any / )
Brainfreeze (storm)

How does devoted mill fare against these types of decks in terms of winning (not versus)?  Is there a way to morph beyond an "aggro-mill" to win consistently?  Does straight mill have a chance to play against decks that are GY specific in operation rather than helping them?  I figure you would outright lose to a dredge deck unless you managed to remove the GY from the game.

I'm not "right", but those are my questions straight off.  

Two things:

1.) There already is a competitive Mil deck in Legacy, it's the High Tide Combo deck that storms out Brain Freeze and then casts cards like Blue Sun's Zenith to make their opponent draw out the rest of their deck in response to any of the things that make Mil decks not win.

2.) Your deck is way too slow and seems to have no main-deck solution to the afore mentioned cards that ruin Mil's day.  You also seem to be so "all in" on this Mil strategy that you have no real protections against aggressive decks.  A turn one Delver of Secrets that flips on turn two and a Tarmogoyf will eat you alive long before you manage to eke out a win.  A Dredge Deck player will just shake your hand and thank you for doing his job for him and handing him a free win.  Heck, that funny Laboratory Maniac Deck that Slave and I were working on would just high-five you and write 2-0 on our win card.


What you need to look into if you plan on using Mil in a meaningful way is a card that make graveyards go away all the time.  Leyline of the Void seems like a good start since you are already playing black, though I'd also try Rest in Peace as well.  I'd also look into Haunting Echoes as an alternate way to get rid of things.  Mind Funeral is an excellent Mil card and I'm surprised you aren't using it.  Twenty-five basic lands aren't going to cut it for you either.  You need to diversify and get some non-basics in there that tap for two or more colors to help ease the strain of your mana base.  I'd cut Mesmeric Orb since it's not doing to any favors.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Just build a real deck.  If you REALLY want this style of deck, just go for mono red burn.  It's bad, but not THIS bad, and it doesn't just randomly lose to show and tell and anyone with a natural order plan. 

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
mill is like burn, except with the following drawbacks:
1. the spells are much less efficient at killing the opponent
2. mill spells can't kill creatures
3. milling enables the strategies of a lot of decks (especially with Deathrite Shaman, etc running rampant)
4. the mana base is much shakier
5. it loses outright to show and tell

and burn isn't even a particularly good deck either

1.) There already is a competitive Mil deck in Legacy, it's the High Tide Combo deck that storms out Brain Freeze and then casts cards like Blue Sun's Zenith to make their opponent draw out the rest of their deck in response to any of the things that make Mil decks not win.


even if high tide usually won with brain freeze (it doesn't), it still wouldn't be a mill deck
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
To add to your points Purple_Shrimp;
6. Decks like Reanimator & Dredge are an auto-loss. 

The only Mill I've seen that could win against either of these decks, is the High-Tide or Painter's Stone decks, that can just nail their opponent in one hit.
A traditional Mill deck using stuff like Mind Funeral isn't going to cut it.  Although Mind Funeral is EXCELLENT against Storm decks using Goblin Charbelcher
Visions of Beyond, Snapcaster Mage, and Surgical Extraction

Enjoy =] 
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares:
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Malpheas: THANK YOU FOR THE FOIL TIBALT, YOU BEAUTIFUL GUY, YOU! Suudsu2200: Armageddon! Sèance, Dominating Licid, Words of War, Gaea's Anthem, Momentous Fall, Nyxathid PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best. Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
EVENT-REPORT:

After playing against the test-decks a lot, and finding out that I could not cross the 12 card barrier any longer I had to slow down the opponents to gain the time for the final mill.

Even though surgical extraction only "Mills" an average of 2.something it does allow for the early removal of creatures like tarmogoyf, so I took surgical extraction from the sideboard to the main, and included innocent blood.

Turning the deck into this:
(Still using the rest of the fastest milling cards)
(Written in order of best averages)

16 island
8 swamp
4 mind funeral
4 archive trap
4 glimpse the unthinkable
4 dream twist
4 shriekhorn
4 mesmeric orb
4 brain freeze
4 surgical extraction
4 innocent blood

SIDEBOARD:
4 darkblast
4 disrupt
4 daze
3 thought scour

MATCH 1: (RUW: steppe lynx,force of will,vendilion clique,lightning bolt)
Game 1: he wins.
Game 2: I sb for 4 darkblast, by removing 4 innocent. He plays a land, and fetches, I show 3 archive traps, he counters one. I win.
Game 3: I get darkblast early and constantly dredges it to make him burn away his fetch on my turn by tageting his lynx. I get several dream twist in the grave and starts milling instead of darkblasting, drawing into mill enough to win the game. At 1 time I get his vendilion with darkblast.

MATCH 2: (Elves with craterhoof behemoth)
Game 1: He wins, even though I extract glimpse from my turn 1.
Game 2: I sb 4 darkblast, remove 4 innocent again. This time I get down an early mesmeric orb, making him think too long about almost everything. I win.
Game 3: Our game has attracted some spectacors since we are getting close to the time. At one point my opponent choses to abrupt decay a tapped shriekhorn with 2 counters on it, drawing the comment from someone that now he've seen that as well. Opponent wins.
I never got any darkblast during those games, except from the last game where he had 5-6 elves and I was trying to mesmeric orb him away again.

MATCH 3: (Zombardment)
Game 1: He wins. I look at my top card and sees mind funeral. I ask him how many lands he has in library, he looks and the answer is three. 1 turn and I would have won that one.
Game 2: For the third time I sb 4 darkblast and remove 4 innocent. I don't get close this time, and he wins again.

MATCH 4: (RUW, geist of saint thraft, stoneforge mystic, grim lavamancer)
Game 1: I win.
Game 2: 4th time i sb 4darkblast and remove 4 innocent. He wins.
Game 3: Since he played disenchant during game two I sb 4 shriekhorn out and 4 thought scour in.
I win.
After the game I tell him that I've tested a lot against that decktype, and he tells me that's impossible, since he made the deck himself. I tell him it looked a lot like stoneblade to me. Then he launches into a 3-4 minutes outline of our game, mentioning the red cards I must have seen when I extracted, or the mountain he had in play, and I end up agreeing that the deck is unique, and then I worry a lot about why the hell all of this slipped my mind during play. I must have been on some sort of automatic milling mode. Pretty far out actually.

MATCH 5: (Cascade BUG)
Game 1: I mill him down to two before I die.
Game 2: I don't sideboard. He wins again, and faster.

MATCH 6: (Stoneblade)
Game 1: I start. I play dream twist, and mills 1 underground sea, 1 tundra and something else.
I use two surgical extracts, removing a total of 6 lands from his deck. On my turn 2 I mill away a scrubland. He concedes on turn three.
Game 2: I dont sideboard. and I win.

END RESULTS:
I got an 11th place out of 31 players. 9 points.

It's not exactly top 8, but as I've stated it, it's getting close to being a competitive deck.

If the 11th place is not enough to convince you then try to take into consideration that I am not the best advocate for the deck.

During the games I forgot to play brain freeze during an opponents turn at least three times.

Generally I forget to play instants at my opponents turn.

I probably did not use darkblast at a maximum potential, and at one game I overlooked that I could have killed a snapcaster mage early in a game, with it, because I worried so much about how on earth I could get rid of a tarmogoyf! (Simple answer, I could'nt)

Hell, the game where he fetched, only to see me reveal 3 archive traps, I almost chose to mulligan until I remembered that he DID play fetches. I had actually picked up the deck and was about to shuffle it before realising what I was doing.

Then there was the overall response to the deck itself. People in the room were actually sitting at tables and talking about their match against me, which they usually don't.

The card most mentioned by pro's were mind funeral. I guess they could sense it's averages from the games we had.
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ANSWERS:

MALPHEAS:
Of the three decks you mention, only hightide has been played successfully recently, and I think it only broke through because the trend of slowly losing counterspells from the best decks actually lead to a breakdown 06/01/13 with 5 combolike decks in top 8. Since then counterspells have been back into business as usual.

Now all three of these decktypes belong to the group of combo. And todays tournaments feature a lot of both discard and counters due to the heavy rise of BUG.

What a PURE milling deck (Like mine) does is, playing with so many milling cards that they can't all be countered or discarded. Safety through numbers. So while combo-mill is easy to disrupt, puremill will be a bit more "relyable" Hope that explains the reasoning I have in "my deck" being superior to something that can mill everything on turn 2-3.

AZURE SHADE:
Hightide can be discarded/countered. My mill is less vulnerable to that.
Yes, in a way my deck is to slow, getting them down to 12 cards on an average turn 5, which is why I went into stalling them with surgical extraction.

The matches I described against goblins and infect went well after sideboarding, and they are certainly fast decks. Only combo is faster than those. (Maybe fish too) I have described that I tested against canadian thresh, and as a consequence tested against turn 5? It's not exactly every game that delver flips.

Canadian thresh also had the highest number of counterspells, making it my perfect testdeck. After I changed the deck into what it is now, I tested it 12 times. During these tests Mill won 10 times. (I may have been too tired to focus, so it might have been worse results in reality, but it should be fast enough)

As for dredge, I have played slower milling before, and won against dredge because of surgical extraction.

My overall goal is to survive 6-7 turns, to mill the last 12 cards. Sometimes my opponents help me with that goal. (Fetch (1), ponder (1), brainstorm (1), goblin ringleader (0-4), golgari gravetroll (7).

so the future of this deck rests more in how much removal can be put into it from this point on, than in anything else.

PURPLE_SHRIMP:
Mill is like burn, except burn does not disrupt manacurves or prevent combo from winning

SLAVE:
Surgical extraction has upped the battle against reanimate&dredge.
To be honest, the matchup I'd fear the mostof them, is the hivemind deck, but then again, I don't scare easily
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SUM UP:

9 point are not a lot, which is why I will tell you peops about next match which will be fought on tuesday.

And by all means try out the deck against something from the meta. I want actual input from battles, and I think everyone want it.

If mill can become competitive it will change a lot about how magic is played.

And don't forget R&D's seemingly ongoing campaign to produce better mill, which have lasted since the morningtide cycle. That's more than 5 cycles where each release have had new milling cards.

We might just as well get it over with and make mill work. If they start seeing puremill in action, they will probably be able to pinpoint what they need to create to make mill competitive, and once it's become that, they will stop making new mill cards. I swear ;D 
ISLAND:
As you can see, surgical extraction worked wonders (It's been years since I've had an opponent do a turn 3 concede).

I would love to play with visions from beyond, but against fast decks I only got 4-5 turns, and a total of 15 mana throughout an entire 5 turn game. Since I already need to mill those last 12 cards, spending 1 mana and skipping a turn to get 3 cards is not that great a deal. Maybe in a different design?

Snapcaster, could replace darkblast and become a blocker, both netting me time, and an extra mill. Sadly I no longer have 4 of them(stolen) and I havent the cash to get them in a long while.




  
PURPLE_SHRIMP:
Mill is like burn, except burn does not disrupt manacurves or prevent combo from winning

SLAVE:
Surgical extraction has upped the battle against reanimate&dredge.
To be honest, the matchup I'd fear the mostof them, is the hivemind deck, but then again, I don't scare easily



Mill is nothing like burn - Burn has the ability to protect itself from creature threats and get you direct damage.
Mill traditionally can't defend itself unless you include removal, and the nature of it's win-con can enable some decks to stomp you on the very next turn.


Surgical Extraction can definitely help you against combo - like Hivemind, Dream Halls, Show and Tell etc etc.    
I'd consider Extirpate aswell if you're finding this line of play works well for you. It's a great way to get around any counter they may have in hand.

If you're looking to really test out your Mill deck, have someone play against you with any variant of Dredge.
I personally find Surgical Extraction doesn't slow down Manaless Dredge much at all.......
The cards that really hurt Dredge are ones like Grafdigger's Cage, that prevent them doing anything GY based.   
This time the deck did not perform that well.

I had 4 darkblast and 1 innocent blood in maindeck, and while the cards in themselves worked wonderfully, it became clear to me after the tournament that I would have won more with 5 extra milling cards instead.

They did stop the creatures because people countered the mill the most, so it's not because of being countered that the removal is inefficient.

However, the games I had that day, were full of creatures, and each time I destroyed something it would turn out that the mill took care of almost everything except a few cards, and if I had drawn some mill instead, they would have died...

Here are the number of cards I missed to mill:
1, 5, ?, 0, ?, 10, 0, 17, 0, 0, 7, 10, ?.

0 means I won, ? means it was to large a number to bother at getting my opponent to count it.

By looking back at the past two tournaments I discovered that the deck in general performed like this:

Game 1 I win or get very close to it 6-10 cards.
Game 2 the results become worse.
Game 3 the results are the worst.

I think that this is because I remove mill from the deck to sideboard against the opponent.

So I will have a fourth go with the deck, this time I will use full mill, no removal, and in the sideboard I will store more task specific mill and perhaps 3-4 bojuka bog.

That way I can change cards like mesmeric orb if an opponent does not have a deck that untaps a lot, or similar changes.
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On the upside I,ve discovered that most opponents "MOVE" a lot more than I expected them to do.

"Moving" is when they tap stuff when the orb is in play, or when they fetch and brainstorm and ponder cards away.

People are quite reckless in helping my cause compared to how I tested against the mill myself.

Only one person was scared by the threat of archive trap and avoided fetch, and this was only lategame, as he fetched in order to play a jace, the mind sculptor.

And speaking of jace, I have found out that if a force of will and a jace is in the grave and I get my hands on a surgical extraction, it is by default best to remove the jace. With 24 lands jace stalls these designs long enough to mill me!

So I actually think that opponents will deal with the last 12-14 cards on an average by themselves, by "moving" too much and miscalculating the risks involved when fetching, pondering and so on.

The last aspect to cover is the mix of pro's and noobs.

Results for the first tournament was in a mix with noobs and pro's.
The second tournament was with a lot more pro's and a lot higher prices and entryfee.
last tournament was a mix of noobs/pros again.

Results from the pro tourney were the best, after all I met decks that I had tested against and designed the sideboard to match a broad array of matchups.

The more roguish tournaments it seems that I'm better off by just milling as fast as possible and have it at that.

I'll update on the next tuesday after the "mixed participants" tournament that day.

WDM
 
maybe the reason you're just falling short of winning is that mill is fundamentally slower than burn


PURPLE_SHRIMP:
Mill is like burn, except burn does not disrupt manacurves
  


on average, neither does mill
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
PURPLE_SHRIMP:

You are right, burn is faster. It can kill on turn 3, mill can only kill at turn 4.

There are exceptions though, since I have once had 4 archive trap in an oppening hand, and opponent started with a fetch, so turn 1 kill is possible with mill, but not very likely.

And turn 4 kill is also pretty unlikely with mill as well, it's more or less a turn 6 kill if anything.

The current deck I use has only basics as lands, which slows it down a bit, milling an opponent down to 14.25 cards in 5 turns. When I test the same deck with "perfect mana" they go down to 13.5 cards in 5 turns. (10.5 against a deck that neither fetches or counters)

Since we are talking averages, there will be some games where I won, and some where I mill almost nothing.

So here are the number of cards left in libraries after 5 turns with normal mana:
10 19 05 22 25 27 17 13 05 16 00 19 09 35 00 04 25 16 18 00

And with perfect mana:
12 20 10 13 04 00 09 00 09 05 00 16 12 01 11 22 16 17 11 22

Both are actual tests against canadian thresh.

Against canadian the cards perform a bit different than usually:
(canadian averages are placed to the right)

Mind funeral    14.1     12.3
Mesmeric orb   05.4     08.4
brain freeze     05.1     06.57
shriek horn      05.52    05.2
thought scour  04.6      04.6
dream twist     05.57     04.2
surgical extra   01.3       02.07

The results from surgical extraction has improved as I've become more used to the decklists, and knowing the opponents deck becomes quite vital with that knowledge.

Testing against threshold I tried the deck, with and without surgical extraction.

Without the extraction I only milled an average of 20.1 cards in 5 turns.

With the extraction it was 13.5

So surgical extraction does A LOT for the decks performance.
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I will be testing against the different decks played mostly in my meta, so some decktypes will have to be excluded from my work unless I find the time to test them as well.

Since the cards work at different averages against certain decks, it is clear that there has to a best overall average when picking the cards for the deck.

For example, mind funeral does not have the best average against canadian, because it is usually played after the canadian has countered 1-2 spells like trap or glimpse, so only 3-6 cards has been milled at that point.

Mesmeric orb on the other hand mills a lot when it slips through.

I constantly list the averages, and counter the spells with the best averages, an let the small stuff slip through.

From tournament play I have experienced that the deck is able to rip bladebased decks apart in almost all the games, except those where they get jace, the mind sculptor in play.

I hope to have tested against enough decks to have the best average mill in mainboard, and the best against specific deck in the sideboard before tuesday so this work may shine a bit
I don't know if you've noticed this, but both Surgical Extraction and Extirpate allow you to target non-basics. Great way to potentially color screw somebody and increase Mind Funeral's effectiveness.

Also, if you use fetches, Hedron Crab doubles as mill and a potential blocker if needed. 
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.
I think extracting nonbasic lands is dirty and you should do more of it. Hitting eldrazi in the SnT matchup also seems important. And there's always Sadistic Sacrament if you want to push the lobotomy angle from the sideboard (would need to upgrade manabase).

Have you tested with Vision Charm at all? A buddy of mine likes it over shriekhorn for speed and the 2nd mode may help in some corner case. Also, it's a one mana instant which is loads better for Storm count when brainfreezing on the opponent's turn.

Hedron crab is great early if unanswered but will usually just eat otherwise dead removal. Maybe a side-in after they take that stuff out if you get some fetches. 
GTSYNTHVOICE:

In one of the games described in here, I mention that I mill at turn 1 (Probably dreamtwist) and see both tundra and underground sea in the grave, and since I had 2 surgical extractions in hand I chose the lands. At turn two I mill him again (Probably flashbacked dream twist) and get to see scrublands enter the grave. At turn 3 opponent concedes

Adding extirpate to the deck is something I will do, when I can get the economy fixed and buy them
(Currently unemployed!)

Specializing on hitting the lands might be very effective, but so far I have focussed all my tests on removing threats as the higher priority.

Hedron crab is good in tests with fetchlands, but the meta is currently too creature hostile for it to work well. I like to see a spell either work immediately or getting countered, since they will eventually run out of counter-cards.

ZAUZICH:
If focus were to hit on lands with extirpate/extraction I think shriekhorn would need to be switched into vision charm instead, to dig deep enough into a deck to get the lands as fast as possible. Also vision charm messes with landtype so it may stall them on a vital turn. And as mentioned before messing with landtypes stop the valakut/scapeshift combo, and the version of nic fit containing that combo IS seeing a little play these days. Before I could find my tome scours I used vision charm in the tests. It does give an extra turn against bladebased decks in some situations, but since it only mills 4 and the shriekhorn statistically mills 5.something on average, and helps the manabase I replaced it when I found my tome scours.

Sadistic sacrament is perhaps best for the sideboard against combo or as a way to get rid of emrakul and other grave shufflers. It does mess a lot with the mana though, and since I'm down to basics because I lost my duals (Theft) it's a bit hard to incorporate for me!

I tested the deck against cascade-bug in the weekend and with perfect mana got the opponent milled down to 8.95 cards on an average:

Here's the actual numbers left in library after 5 turns: (00 means I won)
11 14 16 04 00 05 06 11 09 17 00 13 30 07 00 00 32 04 00 00

But to tell the truth, I'm not totally sure that I played it right. I focussed on getting creatures like tarmogoyf in play before playing hymn to tourach, rather than the other way around, because I thought that getting the creature in play was the higher priority. If someone with more experience would claim that hymn to tourach is more important to play first, I'd listen if the argument is good enough, but the main reason of not playing the discard first was that I thought that if I drawed a surgical extraction at my turn (Or have it and responds with it), the goyf would be lost even though my mill would be reduced.

I have to skip this tuesdays tournament, but will catch thwe next one instead.

PS: SLAVE/PURPLE_SHRIMP:
There's a new dredgedeck in mtgtop8, would it be fit enough as a testdeck against milling? Link= mtgtop8.com/event?e=4241&d=224783

 
PS: SLAVE/PURPLE_SHRIMP:
There's a new dredgedeck in mtgtop8, would it be fit enough as a testdeck against milling? Link= mtgtop8.com/event?e=4241&d=224783
 



Good Ole Manaless dredge.
Yes, it would be a VERY good choice to test against, but I won't be alone saying - this will be a nightmare matchup for you.

I run a very similar deck, changes are;
-Bloodghast, -Dakmor Salvage, - Gitaxian Probe
+4 Dryad Arbor, +1 Griselbrand, +3 Contagion, +2 Sickening Shoal, +2 Shambling Shell.
 My list is a little slower, but has answers for Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Lackey etc., in the main.
Dryad Arbor in the main is an awesome card, even without hate in game 1. 
Remember with this deck, you essentially can't mulligan. 

Manaless is capable of comboing off (cos it really is a combo deck at heart) as early as Turn 2.
This happens due to Phantasmagorian & Wraith both able to be used in your turn 1 end step, and being able to discard 3 cards (as many times as you like) off the one Phantasmagorian. 

Even postboard, I'm not sure how you could possibly beat a deck like this reliably, when they can pack in Artifact & Enchantment hate g2 and 3.
I personally run a full 8 hate cards for ench & artifacts in my side, together with some lands.
 
Manaless has a way of swarming the board quickly, and Dread Return targetting a Grisebrand is usually an automatic win.  That said, this deck can deck itself quite early, especially if they DR a Grisel and don't manage to kill you, so that could be an opportunity maybe?

Dread Return would be my first choice for extraction effects, as it slows the deck down, although the deck has such a large number of threats that hitting the combo part of it still won't get you a win.
Grafdigger's Cage can be quite effective thereafter.
Just sayin.
SLAVE:
As far as I can understand, the phantasmagorian HAS to be in the grave to effectively starting to discard cards.

Am I right in asuming that the "GOAL" of the deck is to start with the horror in hand, and discard it when possible?

If so I have a few questions:

1: How will the deck perform if it does not get phantasmagorian in the opening hand?
2: Which phase does the deck try to "go off"? Is it immediatelly after the discard of the horror, or during an opponents upkeep, or something else?
3: Is it the goal of the deck to reanimate the flayer? If so, how much is needed in the grave to kill with?
4: How often does it kill a goldfish on an average played out turn 2?
(I will try to discover this myself, but if anyone knows the % already I could use more time on testing the interaction with mill instead)
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As far as I can guess, the best cards that the milling-deck has against any version of dredge I know, will be surgical extraction and mind funeral. (Mind funeral should be a safe win when played!)

Since the plans are to somehow include extirpate as well, that gives 12 cards that can potentially rip the deck appart.

The 8 artifacts I play with are on the low end of how much they would mill, and if the dredger boards them in, he/she will lose some of the decks original speed, so I actually asume that the dredge-player will not go for artifactremoval, but I may be wrong.

Compared with the matchup against cascade-bug with 4 abrupt decay in main, the mesmeric orb mills 6.81 on an average (8.4 against canadian) and shriekhorn is milling 5.5 cards (5.2 against canadian, so all in all, if they have antiartifact, I will still manage to mill cards with them, this will especially be better with mesmeric orb since dredge is low on mana, and will untap a lot of creatures if they have to kill over several turns. All in all I don't expect my artisfacts to be that relevant in who will win in this matchup.

If anyone knows of a version more resistant to these cards, which is also currently played at tournaments I would like to know it.

The weakness of this dredge-version, is that it cannot tolerate a mulligan against normal decks, and that there is only about 41% chance of getting a phantasmogorian in the openinghand!

However the deck will somehow be speeded up by being milled, and in this matchup it might be considered a good thing to mulligan. If anyone has any input on how and when they would mulligan with such a deck, I'd also like to know.

SLAVE:
Nightmarish matchups is what I usually work with, the problem I have is linking the overall experience with all matchups and produce the best hybrid from those tests.

But perhaps someone might beat me in such a task, which is why I publish

If anyone has suggestions on how the worst matchups will sideboard against mill, I will listen a lot, since games after boarding will be the most challenging ones.
Oh man... this is gonna be an essay!

SLAVE:
As far as I can understand, the phantasmagorian HAS to be in the grave to effectively starting to discard cards.
Am I right in asuming that the "GOAL" of the deck is to start with the horror in hand, and discard it when possible?
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The 8 artifacts I play with are on the low end of how much they would mill, and if the dredger boards them in, he/she will lose some of the decks original speed, so I actually asume that the dredge-player will not go for artifactremoval, but I may be wrong.

Compared with the matchup against cascade-bug with 4 abrupt decay in main, the mesmeric orb mills 6.81 on an average (8.4 against canadian) and shriekhorn is milling 5.5 cards (5.2 against canadian, so all in all, if they have antiartifact, I will still manage to mill cards with them, this will especially be better with mesmeric orb since dredge is low on mana, and will untap a lot of creatures if they have to kill over several turns. All in all I don't expect my artisfacts to be that relevant in who will win in this matchup.

The weakness of this dredge-version, is that it cannot tolerate a mulligan against normal decks, and that there is only about 41% chance of getting a phantasmogorian in the openinghand!



Okay, let's say you have an opening hand of Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian, a Dredger and other stuff.
On turn one, we're not aiming to put cards into play, we want stuff to go to the graveyard, so we want to be on the draw.
Draw a card, end of turn, discard a card (ie. Phantasmagorian or a dredger). 
Then whilst still in your own T1 end step, you can either cycle Street Wraith to dredge, or use Phantasmagorian. 
Other more All-In plays you could do, would be to discard Phants, use it's ability to discard 3 cards, then whilst that is on the stack, use it again to discard another 3 cards, then you cycle Street Wraith to grab a dredger to get more into the graveyard.
If your opening hand doesn't have either of Wrait or Phants in your opener, you just discard your dredger and wait for turn 2. 
Not very often, but now and then I can get 20 or so cards into my yard on turn 1.......   

There are theories on which variant of Dredge is stronger.  I like Manaless as it's harder to interfere with than LED-Dredge, and many of the Manaless lines of play can be hard to interrupt, as many of the effects are replacement effects that can't be countered.  
LED-Dredge is faster, no doubt, but it's a lot more open to counter magic ripping it to pieces also. 
Manaless is also very threat dense, so losing the ability to mulligan strongly (cos every mulligan is a wasted turn) isn't really that bad. Play the deck, you'll see.

1: How will the deck perform if it does not get phantasmagorian in the opening hand?
Draw a card, discard a dredger.  Turn 2, dredge.
Phants and Wraith are the two best accelerater's for the deck, both of which can be used in the T1 end step.  Gitaxian Probe is another option, although it's not useable until turn 2 main phase.  


2: Which phase does the deck try to "go off"? Is it immediatelly after the discard of the horror, or during an opponents upkeep, or something else?
Depends how much business you have going, and what answers you opponent may have.  If they have Force in their deck you have to play a bit more cautious, typically, the main way Manaless wins is by dredging out Cabal Therapies and stripping the opponents' hand, and increasing your zombie count.  If they don't have a way to nuke your graveyard, your swarm builds quite quickly. 
Every now and then, you'll combo out on turn 2 or 3 main phase via Dread Return into Grisel. This is why I run Dryad Arbor.   Arbor isn't a spell, can't be countered, so you can put it into play to play your Therapy or Dread Return etc etc. 

3: Is it the goal of the deck to reanimate the flayer? If so, how much is needed in the grave to kill with?
Dread Return in to Grisel, or just simply throwing your zombie hoard at the opponent is the normal line if play. 
This an alternate win-con.  Lets say we have an effect like Blazing Archon.  We're boned!!!
Bring in Flayer, then Dread Return a Golgari Grave Troll (hint, sac Flayer, it returns, dealing damage twice, then DR takes effect) 
Hooray - they get dealt a dickload of damage! 
The other option is to DR in Flayer and let the Ichorids and Shadows etc. spit burn-style damage.
I've tried pretty much every viable creature target out there for this deck (it's my pet deck...can you tell?) and 2 Flayer with 3 Grisel has flexibity and delivers serious damage given the opportunity.  A DR into Grisel usually uncovers a couple more Dread Returns.... have fun with that.

4: How often does it kill a goldfish on an average played out turn 2?
Not that often, less than 20% I would think, but with a little experience with the deck you'll get better at knowing when to go all-in and when to hold back. If you ever get a hand as crazy as Phants, Wraith x2, a couple of Grave-Trolls and Dryad Arbor - you'd better win or I'll punch you in the ear!Wink 

I run 14 to 15 dredging creatures usually, which means I should have a 90+% chance of having a dregder in my opener.  This crucial, having Phants or Wraith is only a bonus.  To compare to Kathleens' list (which is a good build), I prefer Dryad Arbor in the main due to Therapy & DR, and extra dredge creatures (Shambling) for Shadow and Ichorid to play with.

Looking at your Mil deck - my Labmaniac deck (on this forum actually) also runs Mesmeric Orb.
Orb hurts you against dredge, as every creature they attack you with gives them more fuel in the yard. Considering your strategy, I'd make sure you have plenty of ways to nullify anything put in the yard.  Grafdigger isn't the strongest hate out there, but against dredge it's quite effective.  Tormod's Crypt is tricky but not unbeatable, whereas a first turn Relic can force a manaless player to scoop if they don't have Phants or Wraith in hand.
What really hurts Manaless dredge more than anything else are taxing effects (think Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Daze etc).  This is why I include about 3 lands in my side additional to Dryad Arbor in the main.

I wonder..... the turn a dredge player goes off and casts Griselbrand, I've usually plonked almost 40 cards in to the yard on that single turn.
If you've managed to brainstrom/hide a Brainfreeze, it could be a very effective way to deck your opponent on that turn provided you can draw it from the top of your library, and cast it before they pass the turn.  (assuming they don't finish you first).
Someone played legacy mill vs me online a couple nights ago. It was pretty impressive; he was milling me so fast I didn't realize what was happening until I had <20 cards left in my library in the first four or five turns. Never see people playing mill in legacy.

It was pretty funny when he found out I was running Emrakul. 
SLAVE:
I started out testing the deck yesterday and played throughout the day, and into the early morning.

During the inital games I discovered that I really cannot afford to mill the dredgedeck at all except with the mind funeral or if I have counted enough cards to see a sure win by massive milling in one turn, but that is a rare event at best.

The only tactic I could think of was to identify the deck as dredge, and then stop milling it immediately, waiting for the mind funeral to pop up in my hand.

I always play like I don't know the deck I'm testing against, and I always asume that my opponent knows my own deck to the core, so a lot of games mind funeral simply met cabal therapy at turn 2.

I "Identify" the mill at my turn 1, through milling with either tome scour, shriekhorn or dream twist, depending on what I have in hand, but the chief order I prefer to play them is the horn first as it will mill 6 if played at the beginning, then the tome scour, and finaly dreams.

The first 2-5 cards I see in a grave is usually enough to hint at the decktype, and if I don't identify the dredge from there, it reveals itself on it's own first turn, so I usually only mill those 2-5 cards!

But that seems to make the deck pretty broken.

The first matches were like 50/50, but after I learned to play the deck I had a snowballs chance in hell to win against it.

When milling those 2-5 cards the deck goes from winning at turn 3-5 to winning consistently at turn 2-3.

It was such a horrible experience that I tinkered enough with my mana to find out that my deck can run 2 bojuka bog without ruining anything, but the tests after that have also just been the dredgedeck winning.

I have to admit that winning against dredge will have to involve the future sideboard, so I will skip to that and forget all about the horrors I faced yesterday. (No wins at all)

Since dredge is only played by 3% of the players chances are that I would need to make the sideboard against something else than dredge, which will work against dredge too.

Since I play 4 mind funeral, 4 surgical extraction and 2 bojukabog in main, I have to consider other cards.

I'll still have to buy extirpate, and though tormods crypt is good with brain freeze I also have to buy those (They are cheap though)

I found two cards that everybody else would go "WTF" on, so I'm very likely to try them out

Broken ambitions can counter, and depending on the matchup it will also mill. Against dredge it sort of automatically does not mill them. (I play stuff costing 1-3 and 25 lands, so they win the cascade)
It also fits my "Plan" of not moving a muscle until I get mind funeral, so I will have a full array of mana available against something with 4 lands. I have had thoughts of adding it to the sideboard against decks without counterspells as I might slow them down with it. 

The second card is also a card I have been toying with mentally over the months.
Quiet speculation removes 3 flashback cards from a library, and costing 1U it's cheap enough for me to hit the dredgedeck early enough to rip out most of their cabal therapy's.

I must admit that since I play the dredge knowing my own decks flaws, it can be played around some times, but how often would a dredgeplayer actually know anything about this deck (Except for you!) so I count on winning game 1 by surprise advantage, then locking them down totally.

Quiet speculation is not for the dredge alone. 9 decktypes play with flashbacks.

18% Bladedecks.
04% Storm.
03% Dredge.
02% Pox.
01% MBC.
01% Nic Fit.
01% Zombardment.
00% Aluren.
00% Pikula.

A total of 30% of the meta plays flashback cards, mainly cabal therapy, lingering souls and faithless looting, so my reasons for having quiet speculation in the sideboard are plenty enough.

I will be testing further against dredge, so if you have the time I have questions

1: How would you play around quiet speculation?
2: How would you play around broken ambitions?
3: What does your opponent's target most often with surgical extraction?
4: How do you play around missing various keycards picked with surgical extraction?
5: How would you rate flashback as a trend? (On the rise or on a decline?)
6: How do you rate my efforts in taking on the meta? (On the rise or on a decline?)

And thank you very much for being honest around dredge, it shines through that you know it at it's best and at it's worst
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ROOV:
There are a few weirdo's like me that try to take on legacy with mill. I know of one other person who actively tries to do the same, (Using jace's phantasm and countering) and someone I was close to defeat (1 card left in library) told how he had tried it himself once, and it looked like he was impressed enough with the deck to try it out again.

After all there are 5 new milling cards waiting for us in gatecrash that I find very interesting.

dimir charm, paraniod delusions, psychic strike, whispering madness and mind grind.

Do you remember parts of your opponent's design?

My own design mills them down to 14 cards on an average in exactly 5 turns.




Draw a card, end of turn, discard a card (ie. Phantasmagorian or a dredger). Then whilst still in your own T1 end step, you can either cycle Street Wraith to dredge, or use Phantasmagorian.

14. Cleanup Step

514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:


514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.





I don't know if waiting till the opponent's upkeep to cycle Streetwraith or activate Phantasmagorian's ability makes a difference, but (barring dark ritual into megrim or something similar by the opponent) I don't see how the dredge deck would get priority in the cleanup step when drawing up to 8 cards and discarding on it's turn 1.    

  
ZAUSICH:
Maybe there's another obscure rule out there? Would'nt be the first time.
Anyways it's the essence of the dredgedeck I need to test against, and if I bend the rules in it's favor, it will all be better for my during real life play.

On the same note, if I mill some cards, and then play surgical extraction on one of the cards with dredge, can the dredgeplayer then draw the card by playin gitaxian probe?

If they can, what happens if they dredge a card with the same name as the one I originally named? will they all go to the grave or does the surgical extraction manage to fizzle before?

As far as I understand it, they can rescue the card, but if the same card is dredged into their grave they lose them all, but I need to know that this is the correct answer

SIDEBOARDING Broken Ambitions and Quiet Speculation into the deck does not seem like it works any wonders for the dredge-matchup, so I'll have to look at other possibilities.

I am now considering to put spoils of the vault into the maindeck.
Spoils is instant so if the dredgeplayer targets mind funeral, I wont really care, and if they target the spoils I just get the mind funeral. win/win.

Why put it into the maindeck?

Well most of the decks in legacy runs fetch, and I can then chase down archive trap during the early game.

I am also considering shred memory, which can get me mind funeral or clear the grave of some important stuff. Being an instant too, it will have some uses and it does remove flashback in the grave, which quiet speculation can't.

On the really weird side Im also considering brainstorm in maindeck, for two reasons, it may rescue a mind funeral in my hand from cabal therapy, and it may get me an archive trap if an opponent fetches. It fits the mana better than spoils of the vault but isn't as stable at it's task, so I may have to turn the deck into something more black to compensate.

If anyone has input on which of all the five considered cards would be the best picks, speak out!
ZAUSICH:
On the same note, if I mill some cards, and then play surgical extraction on one of the cards with dredge, can the dredgeplayer then draw the card by playin gitaxian probe?

If they can, what happens if they dredge a card with the same name as the one I originally named? will they all go to the grave or does the surgical extraction manage to fizzle before?

As far as I understand it, they can rescue the card, but if the same card is dredged into their grave they lose them all, but I need to know that this is the correct answer




Gitaxian Probe is a sorcery so they can't cast it in responce to you extraction. If they probe first and only have one dreger you can extract it before they can dredge it.

If you go to extract a dredger and they do have card draw in responce they can dredge the target into their hand and your extraction will be countered. It won't matter if they dredge another coppy into the yard or even if they somehow discard the same card back into the yard before extraction resolves.        

Shelldock Isle

I still think you need Visions of Beyond.

Snapcaster is a thing here. 
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares:
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Malpheas: THANK YOU FOR THE FOIL TIBALT, YOU BEAUTIFUL GUY, YOU! Suudsu2200: Armageddon! Sèance, Dominating Licid, Words of War, Gaea's Anthem, Momentous Fall, Nyxathid PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best. Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
I still think you need Visions of Beyond.


i can attest to this
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
ZAUSICH:
What about the street wraith then?

ISLANDS/PURPLE_SHRIMP:

I have a huge hatred of playing with cards that has a drawback in order to let me draw some cards.

There are two reasons for why I would avoid that card in my designs.

1: I could essentially mill between 2-5 cards instead for the spent card and mana
(And would rather use the mana on playing/flashbacking dream twist)

2: With 24 lands in my deck, odds are that I just draw 2 lands and a mill card. I don't really need the extra lands, and I've spent the mana to play the mill, essentially losing a turn, which would lose me a game against some of the fastest decks out there.

I actually went to play legacy this saturday, discovering that saturdays have been changed into moderntournaments, so I skimmed my deck to see how much was legal, and it turned out the entire deck was legal, so I played a modern tournament and won half of my games, and was matched against the winner of the tournament (Lost 1-2 against him)

But thats describe in ISLAND's modern mill post.
Since dredge is only played by 3% of the players ....A total of 30% of the meta plays flashback cards, mainly cabal therapy, lingering souls and faithless looting....
1: How would you play around quiet speculation?
2: How would you play around broken ambitions?
3: What does your opponent's target most often with surgical extraction?
4: How do you play around missing various keycards picked with surgical extraction?
5: How would you rate flashback as a trend? (On the rise or on a decline?)
6: How do you rate my efforts in taking on the meta? (On the rise or on a decline?)


You've called it - Dredge isn't as popular as it once was. 
With Deathrite Shaman being so damn popular, some graveyard based builds are getting slammed.  But this has got to make some of us get greedy, and then tailor their side, running light on graveyard hate.
Let me just say that dredge isn't dead, mainly due to people not expecting to play it right now, and not packing sufficient hate to stomp it dead.
That said; If you can win against other graveyard-based decks, I wouldn't try too hard to get your Mill deck competitve against 3% Dredge.  Just scoop. Manaless Dredge scoops to every build of storm most of the time, and there's nothing I can do to improve those odds.

Quiet Speculation  & Broken Ambitions.
I'd expect most dredge players will use up their mana on their turn if they can, so they're likely gonna be a passenger to these two.  Manaless is different though (and a less common deck too).  Manaless usually can't pay the mana, but has a very threat heavy decklist, so you'd likely lose the CLash part. For flashback decks though, it could be a good way to find a target for Surgical Extraction etc etc.
3 & 4. For me, I don't play LED-Dredge, so I can't comment on that one, but in Manaless - Mostly Golgari Grave-Troll, Dread Return or Cabal Therapy. None of those leaving the yard hurts manaless much against fair decks, unless you're starting to get low on cards in the library, or you've just had your only dredger get stripped from the yard. 
5. Flashback cards are here to stay.  Yay!  I have no idea how to answer further though!
As far as Mill goes in Legacy?  Go for it - why not!  If this deck can mill a player by turn 5, that's good enough for legacy, provided you have ways to protect you from them too.  Many decks out there love using the graveyard, so build your side carefully.
Personally, I don't see Quiet or Broken being ver strong against a lot of decks...I dunno how viable they might be.
Draw a card, end of turn, discard a card (ie. Phantasmagorian or a dredger). Then whilst still in your own T1 end step, you can either cycle Street Wraith to dredge, or use Phantasmagorian.

I don't know if waiting till the opponent's upkeep to cycle Streetwraith or activate Phantasmagorian's ability makes a difference, but (barring dark ritual into megrim or something similar by the opponent) I don't see how the dredge deck would get priority in the cleanup step when drawing up to 8 cards and discarding on it's turn 1.   


This move I suggested above would be in your own end-step. Both Phants and Wraith can do their jiggy-jig in your end step. It can be done in your opponents'end step too. I've checked this with the ruling class quite a few times.  Funnily enough though, this line of pay will get opponents calling for a judge occasionally, as it can seem like you're cheating, although it's perfectly within the rules.  
ZAUSICH: On the same note, if I mill some cards, and then play surgical extraction on one of the cards with dredge, can the dredgeplayer then draw the card by playin gitaxian probe? If they can, what happens if they dredge a card with the same name as the one I originally named? will they all go to the grave or does the surgical extraction manage to fizzle before? As far as I understand it, they can rescue the card, but if the same card is dredged into their grave they lose them all, but I need to know that this is the correct answer

Gitaxian Probe is a sorcery so they can't cast it in responce to you extraction. If they probe first and only have one dreger you can extract it before they can dredge it.  If you go to extract a dredger and they do have card draw in responce they can dredge the target into their hand and your extraction will be countered. It won't matter if they dredge another coppy into the yard or even if they somehow discard the same card back into the yard before extraction resolves.


I'd like to add to this. 
Even LED-dredge, which plays all the flashback cards (Faithless Looting. Breakthrough etc.) has not a single instant in the whole deck.
No fear here. The basic rule with extraction for any opponent is, you choose the target, they can respnd with an instant or activated ability. This could be a counter, Tormod's Crypt, Misdirection, whatever. Let say they remove the target you chose, but there's another identical card in the raveyard. Too bad. Fizzle town. The exact target is the only one extraction cares about. 
To add - Dredge has no way of removing a target "dredger" in the yard to protect from extraction, apart from Griselbrand being in play. (But then, if Grisel was in play you should be dead anyways)


Of the cards suggested, Visions of Beyond is a good one - so is Brainstorm. If you're not sure how good/bad brainstorm might be for you, try testing against some discard heavy decks.

I have a question for you.
It sounds like Extraction is something you're chasing to murder combo, but what about exiling effects like Leyline of the Void?
Void gets around tricky cards for you like Emrakul/Eldrazi etc., prevents graveyard decks doing anything super, and it's a great T1 play.
So whats your thoughts on this card as a sideboard option?

This move I suggested above would be in your own end-step. Both Phants and Wraith can do their jiggy-jig in your end step. It can be done in your opponents'end step too. I've checked this with the ruling class quite a few times.  Funnily enough though, this line of pay will get opponents calling for a judge occasionally, as it can seem like you're cheating, although it's perfectly within the rules.



You can cycle or activate wrath from the graveyard in the end step, sure. But you don't discard down to max hand size until the cleanup step - after the end step is over. I'm sure you're doing it right.  Ah I see. When you said "your turn one end step" I thought you meant the dredge player's turn one. You meant the opponent's.
 (countering extraction) .....Dredge has no way of removing a target "dredger" in the yard to protect from extraction, apart from Griselbrand being in play.


I guess I should add to this - apart from Street Wraith.
But then with Deathrite Shaman, Ooze, Relic etc. being so popular, a fast start is necessary.  So no player will still have a Wraith in hand after turn 2.  Could be why I didn't even consider it! LOL.  


This move I suggested above would be in your own end-step. Both Phants and Wraith can do their jiggy-jig in your end step. It can be done in your opponents'end step too. I've checked this with the ruling class quite a few times.  Funnily enough though, this line of pay will get opponents calling for a judge occasionally, as it can seem like you're cheating, although it's perfectly within the rules.



You can cycle or activate wrath from the graveyard in the end step, sure. But you don't discard down to max hand size until the cleanup step - after the end step is over. I'm sure you're doing it right.  Ah I see. When you said "your turn one end step" I thought you meant the dredge player's turn one. You meant the opponent's.


I'm gonna have to check the exact terminology here - maybe I'm not quite getting the names of the steps right?  I do know it's a legal play though. 

You can cycle or activate wrath from the graveyard in the end step, sure. But you don't discard down to max hand size until the cleanup step - after the end step is over. I'm sure you're doing it right.  Ah I see. When you said "your turn one end step" I thought you meant the dredge player's turn one. You meant the opponent's.



Hmmm... Seems I've been doing it wrong.  Thanks Zauzich!
So yes, they can be activated any time you can cast an instant/activate a triggered ability etc.
Can't be done during your T1 cleanup step, can be done on opponents' turn, including their end step immediately before your T2.
Most of the time, I use their ability on the opponents' end step anyway, to make sure their extraction / Deathrite Shaman etc. just fizzles -  good to know.
Cheers.   

Relative to Mill - both Phants & Wraith use the stack, so neither can get around Extirpate.  
I have taken a look at the current meta, by noticing which decks are on the rise and what is on it's way out, and finally by how often it is played.

LEGACY TOP 9:

22 decks = different versions of esperblade, miracle blade and stoneblade.
20 decks = bug-versions. Pernicious jace, cascade-bug and american bug.
13 decks = jund. So far not really speciating into any specific versions.
08 decks = sneakshow in two versions, sneakshow and omnishow.
08 decks = canadian thresh. good old and pretty settled in it's design.
06 decks = elfcombo.
05 decks = storm.
04 decks = dredge. (So a little on the rise)
04 decks = reanimate.
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In almost every variant of my mill, the easiest deck to defat has been all variants of blade, and for some reason blade-based decks are astunnishingly weak against my mill. Biggest wonder for me is how those playing with lingering souls cannot stop using them, despite the fact that playing the stoneforge will always be the fastest option for them, and they do it even when I have mesmeric orb in play, which generally kills them as a result. Worst card in these matchups are jace, the mind sculptor, which generally slows my deck down enough for them to win.

At the moment I'm trying to fokus on dredge and reanimate. Because of the massive mention of leyline of the void I finally went and bought it in the store. And considering that it hurts all the decktypes above, except for show-decks I've started testing it in my maindeck design.

It interacts badly with surgical extraction and dream twist so they will probaly be removed from the deck after I find out what to replace them with.

The leylines work well with quiet contemplation though, and since 4 out of the 9 decks uses flashback spells this might be something to focus on as well.
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Brain freeze is something I have considered to move to the sideboard (If there is room)
and replacing it with mind sculpt, which has a better average after all and does not need the timing.
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If surgical extraction get's a role in the deck it will have to be a role supported by extirpate. I'm thinking of testing a radical design where leyline of the void is not included in main. This variant will probably also feature chancellor of the spires, and perhaps serum powder to make it all work so much better, but this will neccessitate a whole new design of the main deck.
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Seal of undoing, æther spellbomb & curfew are something I'm considering against show and tell decks. Especially the seal and the bomb will be fun, since I can just wait for the show and tell to be played, thus sneaking my solution into play with no danger of it being countered

This may work well with the surgical extraction aspect.

Another card I'm beginning to consider again is echoing decay, because of the recent interrest in the selfmill-deck "No lands" using balustrade spy and deck-parts of dredge and charbelcher.
The sideboard for that deck is mainly empty the warrens and other belcher parts.

I think belcher may rise a bit in being played as a result, so I'm preparing beforehand.
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If anyone have any ideas on how to rebuild the deck and sideboard against these 9 decks I think my work would be almost over
Leyline VS Extaction is a metagame choice i guess. 
Extraction just wrecks combo so well, and being able to strip dual-lands from over-greedy manabases is potentially an option too.  
I like Chancellor of Spires, completely forgot about that card! 

For all the flashback type decks, dredge etc., can be a right bitch to deal with and cuts off lots of flashback mechanics too, screws quite a few decks out there, but leaves extraction active.  I'm considering that card too.
Leyline does dodge Abrupt Decay-types though, which isn't a huge thing, as a lot of decks that play Decay are running Deathrite Shaman, so not relying on their graveyard as much as a G/B deck might.
Haven't seen a reanimator deck for a while.... 

What answers are you considering for Storm or Combo?  
 
Do you have a recent decklist?
SLAVE:

I was at a tournament yesterday, and played the following:

DESIGN 5:
14 island
8 swamp
2 bojuka bog

4 mind funeral
4 archive trap
4 glimpse the unthinkable
1 mind sculpt
4 codex shredder
4 mesmeric orb
4 tome scour
4 broken ambitions
4 leyline of the void
4 ensnaring bridge

The reasons for having leyline of the void in the mainboard is to surprise, and prevent.

I also opted to try out ensnaring bridge in the maindeck because I knew that 1 player was playing sneakshow, and my only answer to that seems to go for a 0-0 draw victory, getting 1 point. And also as part of a research on how much mill is actually needed in the deck.

I removed surgical extraction in order to test the leyline, since extraction is useless if the leyline enters play.

THE GAMES:

ROUND 1: mill vs royal painter.

First game he doesn't really notice that he dies, he has 3 cards in library and has 5 permanents to untap. We shuffle and he asks me who will start, I say that that's up to him, since he lost! I remind him of the untapped permanents and he agrees on the loss, since he was caught up in the action so much that he forgot that he had to untap. I win the first round and boards out 3 ensnaring bridge to get 3 seal of removal.

Second game takes longer and he is much more carefull. He wins that one by beating me with a recruiter and a painter a little, then getting grindstone.

Third game is very close, but I get an early start on him. He gives up on beating with empyrial recruiter because he needs to draw a painter, and mesmeric orb is in play. He plays painter, I play seal of removal, he plays grindstone, then another grindstone later and I bounce the painter as a respond. He dies to mesmeric orb just in time.

ROUND 2: Mill vs storm.

First game I start out by codex shredding a fetchland, while holding archive trap in my hand. A bitter situation since he would have fetched if he had drawn it, but it has to happen sometimes with mill. He then discards my broken ambition and soon wins with tendrils. I take out 2 mind funeral, 4 mesmeric orb and 3 ensnaring bridge to put in 3 brain freeze, 3 disrupt and 3 relic of progenitus.

Second game I die fast again, this time to a swarm of 12 goblins. I wonder if I should have kept the mesmeric orbs .

ROUND 3: Mill vs goblins.

We've played before at an earlier tournament, and after this game we both agree that this design is 1 turn slower than last time we met, and that darkblast really helps me against goblins.
He does win both games, and I could have won after 1 turn more in first game, second game I would have won if I had 1 more life.
After game 1 I took out 4 leyline and 4 broken ambition, and put in 3 noble benefactor, 3 brain freeze and 3 seal of removal. I win 1 game for fun.

ROUND 4: Mill vs cascade-bug.

Game 1 was really fun, I get turn 1 leyline and he has many tarmogoyf's. At this point I'm told that leyline of the void does not hit my own graveyard, and the first 3 games I treated it like that. Which means that I will be putting dream twist back in the deck, since I removed it because I thought leyline would disrupt that strategy. I actually don't sideboard this time.

Game 2 I lose again.

Game 3 (We play for fun) I win.

Game 4 (We play for fun again) I win.

So it's sorta like 50% against this matchup, or I got more devious after a while.
(Or he lost his focus and just had fun)

ROUND 5: Mill vs something pox-like.

I win game one, racing against a big 5/5 cast on turn 2, with jitte on it at turn 3. Pretty close game though, so I sideboard 4 broken ambition and 4 leyline out, to get 3 noble benefactor, 3 seal of removal, and 2 brain freeze. He plays bitterblossom and a cabal therapy at turn 1 dark ritual. I have noble benefactor, ensnaring bridge, seal of removal, bojuka bog and codex shredder in hand, and he surprisingly choses to let me discard the seal. I guess he wanted to cabal the bridge during his next turn by flashbacking it, but I stop that plan by playing the bojuka. At my turn 3 the bridge is in play, I slowly mill his krosan grips away and win by mind funeral.

ROUND 6: Mill against pox.

He plays a very fast pox-deck and win first game just as fast as he usually does.
I sideboard away 2 broken ambitions and 4 leylines to trade in 3 noble benefactors and 3 relic of progenitus.

Game 2 I mill him to death.

Game 3 he manages to get 3 bloodghast in his grave at first turn, then he gets rishadan port, and manages to lock down my swamp. I do get ensnaring bridge down, but never get to play any of the two glimpse the unthinkable from my hand. Close, but he wins...  
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I really missed having the extraction against storm, since I've beaten storm with worse designs of mill in the past.

Since leyline of the void does annoy ensaring bridge (and me), grafdiggers cage might be the better card if it isn't countered. If I have had that during the pox-matches instead of relic of progenitus I would have won the last poxmatch. (I had 1 in the opening hand) So it will become part of my sideboard and may move into main instead of the leyline.

There was a tournament before this, that I haven't detailed, and I met reanimate there, but hadn't put the leyline in the deck at that time. His jin-gitaxias would have milled him to death if he had not gotten a second beater just in time.

Plans against storm are not that careful yet, because I have had a tendency of beating it with mill, whenever my design is fast enough. (Shriekhorn was exchanged with codex shredder to test it in a ensnaring bridge setup) But surgical extraction has always been part of the winning designs against storm/combo.

The fun card this tournament was noble benefactor, which I use against decks with no counterspells, because I can block, then I search for archive trap, and if the opponent also searches, WHAM!!!

I have had some thought's of playing the noble with path to exile as well, since white does offer some interesting solutions through the sideboard (oblivion ring, tariff, silence and others) but I dont have the patience of changing the mana right now, and the mana has not failed me since it's last change, except for the rishadan port locking my swamp down.

Using leyline of the void has made bojukabog sort of obsolete within the deck, and it stands to reason that since I could play with 2 lands that tapped and was vulnerable against wasteland without hurting my mana, then the bojoka bogs may be exchanged with 2 underground sea, but they will be expensive

But the deck is getting closer at each design, so I apprechiate your insights a lot.

I will be testing a lot with the 9 topdecks from the meta, and first part of it will be to asume that I have the fastest mill I can put together and 4 leylines.

I will play goldfish games against turn 0 leylines, pretending that I always have land, arti, sorcery and instants in my grave (Making goyf 4/5 automatically) in order to see how fast each topdeck is, and then I will consider how many mill-cards will have to be removed to design a mainboard able to relyably stop them!

But that's my problem and not yours

After the last tournament I have done some testing.

First topic tested is ensnaring bridge!

It saw some play during the tournament and actually won me a victory in one game, but having studied it further I have come to the conclusion that when I play it, I have too many cards in hand for it to make any difference. That single victory has been a fluke, nothing else.

The card is so unstable in either maindeck or board, that it simply cannot perform unless the deck is cut further down in the castingcosts already in the deck, which are actually pretty good.

Since I used the fastest mill only and then 4 bridges in testing it it simply falls apart.

I won't touch it again, and if I ever mention that I will be trying it again, TWACK me hard with a post and remind me that I said this.
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The evaluation of leyline of the void gave far better results.

It turns out that it slows most enemy decks by at least 1 turn if it's attacks are somehow linked to their graveyard.

Since there are plenty of decks around that has a graveyardbased way to boost attacking, this is rather usefull.

As a consequence I took a goldfish test just to see how much that extra turn would net me in general.

It cut the averages down to 10 cards left in an opponents deck.
(Milling 2 cards in 1 turn is rather low !? but it's a step).

Knowing from experience that during live play, opponents actually mill themselves a little with stuff like fetch, brainstorm and others it actually put the deck almost above the needed edge.

Here was the total cards milled during 10 testgames:
58 45 64 54 49 40 50 45 52 49

One thing I also need to mention is that I have not included how much mesmeric orb mills at an average turn 6, since I only have the data for up to turn 5 for that card, so at minimum it could mill 0-1 cards against someone being carefull at the 6th turn.

I have also measured how much codex shredder mills during 6 turns on an average, and the answer for that is 4.75 cards.

Since shriekhorn still averages 5.5 I shouldn't have made that change without testing the codex shredder first! (It's pretty common for me to do something rash like that. Big sigh!)
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At 6:30 this mourning I was lolling so much that any neighbour asleep must have woken up as a result.

The reason make need an explanation.

At my area of play there is a guy with a few mental problems, he's cool enough but sometimes has some ideas of how magic works that are more radical than my own (If you can believe it!)

One of his "things" is to generally play with stuff costing 4 or more, which makes him pretty vulnerable the first 3 turns, so he compensates by playing the zendikar "life-lands" that comes tapped into play, but gives you 1 life.

I have talked in the last post about how I was thinking of replacing 2 bojuka bogs with some sort of dual (Plan was to buy underground sea) because I got a little locked down by a rishadan port!

I also talked about how I would have won at least 1 game against goblins if I had just had 1 more life.

And as I was flipping through my "fat-pack"-leaflets to find some BU land, I found jwar island refuge, Immediately thought, "That's what I need" and then I remembered how I was always telling this guy to get some fetchlands instead and play lower cost spells.

Now I use his tech :D 
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Speaking of tech, I have had two suggestions by other people.

First suggestion is helm of obedience, which comboes with leyline of the void to mill all of an opponents deck. It could replace archive trap?

Second to add submerge to the sideboard, since I play with some milling permanents. If I play something like glimpse the unthinkable and the opponent forces it, I can respond by putting a critter on top of the library, and if I got shriekhorn in play on turn 1 I can get rid of that creature.

I might try both.
I'm back with some more info on the milling deck:

Currently I'm testing submerge as a mainboard card.

43% of the meta plays with green creatures and lots of forests (Or stuff that fetches them)
7% of the decktypes in legacy actually contains a few dual-forests to fetch for.

Bottomline is that submerge is able to work against 50% of the meta, which makes it attractive to me as it's a spell for free that removes 1 pesky creature, which is then milled away afterwards.

It can be cast at times where an opponent has countered one of the larger millingspells to ensure that it's not targeted by force of will or daze, or it may combine with brain freeze for added mill, and occasional it gets a critter on the top, which is milled and then surgical extraction deals with it and it's relatives.

Should the 50% of the meta be too little, submerge may be boosted through vision charm which will make 1 or more lands into forests, enabling submerge to work it's magic.

I am currently testing it against canadian thresh, which continues to be a large pain to this project.
The deck is slowed even more than ordinary, but still defeats milling almost every time.

Other decktypes should be better matches now, and most of these mill will defeat at about 50%, but after submerge this might be improved a lot.

I will return with an update tomorrow after the tuesday tournament.
It was a pretty weird tournament yesterday:

ROUND 1: Mill vs "RUW sort of rogue-deck"

Game 1:
He plays with isumaru, hound of konda, steppe lynx, some counterspells and goblin guide. I die pretty fast. 

Game 2:
I sideboard into 3 surgical extraction, 3 submerge and 3 darkblast. I stop his uzumaru at the beginning of the game with the vision charm/submerge combo, and wins this round in a frantic to remove creatures and to mill at the same type. He also plays grim lavamancer and delver of secrets, which makes his deck pretty fast.

Game 3:
I don't draw any removal and is finnished after a few rounds. The dude procedes to win the tournament with 16 points, (Drawing against his last opponent) so you might want to contemplate what the rest of his deck could have been like (41 participants) (I forgot to look at his graveyard, which is something I do quite often.)

ROUND 2: Mill vs painter. (Two persons in my area are now playing painter)

Game 1:
My opponent starts by throwing grindstone, chrome mox (red) and a goblin welder in play at his turn 1, so I know that I will end up giving him a painter through milling it into his grave. No leyline so I feel doomed. However I start with a vision charm in hand, and through some insane plays we are both trying to win this game as fast as possible. I manage to visioncharm his painter twice during the game as a reaction to his activation of grindstone. I actually win this game.

Game 2:
I sideboard 3 surgical extractions into mainboard. We battle, but he wins fast, without me seing any leylines or exctractions.

Game 3:
He wins again. Red elemental blast hits my vision charm = game over.

ROUND 3: mill vs no opponent!
Someone who forgets to drop, so I wait for 15 minutes, then gain 3 points for my "victory".

ROUND 4: mill vs miracle blade.

Game 1:
I slaughter this guy, and he actually concedes with about 20 cards left in the grave. He seems to be in pretty much despair, so I assume that I have met him and beaten him before.

Game 2:
No mercy, he is milled away pretty quickly, and he states that our matchup is really not in his favor, so I really think I've beaten him before. I have problems in the facial recognition-department, so I really don't know. I have always used notebooks to write down my matches in, and he doesn't register there, so he might have read about my project in some Danish forum.

ROUND 5: mill vs reanimate.

Game 1:
We start playing, I mill some stuff into the grave, recognize it as a reanimator and start to take precautions. Emrakul is milled and I concede.

Game 2:
I mulligan down to 0 in an attempt to get leylines of the void, which he has no solutions against (He told me so)

ROUND 6: Mill vs no opponent!
Another person forgets to tell that he drops.
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All in all a pretty weird tournament!

The good thing is to know that I can still go 1-2 against someone winning the tournament

We actually had a spectactor that told the pro not to laugh at the deck since I've been close to beating the spectactor plenty of times.

I win game 2 and the pro is maybe a little in awe about how it all happened. It was early in this game that he played izumaru hound of konda where I use vision charm to turn his tundra into a forest before submerging it and then milling it with a shriekhorn. He actually laughed when he saw the hound being milled away.
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I'm also moving this project to mtgvault.com's deckarchives, so Any last questions in here will be answered during the next 4-5 days.

Visit my decks there and like them!

I will be updating them for every future tournament I participate in! 
(Both modern and legacy)


Sounds like you're still having fun with this deck.

RE: Ensnaring Bridge - how about Meekstone as an alternative?
It won't stop you getting hit the first time of course, and Emrakul does hurt a fair bit!!  But against a non-emrakul you might stand a chance of actually slowing down the beats to your dome.

RE: Life Lands like Jwar-Isle.
Don't do it!  They crap they're crap they're crap! I used to plauy those suckers, and they live in my multiplayer decks now, never to be seen in legacy ever again......     

Grafdigger's Cage is the the most feared card for me - I play dredge a lot - and it just hoses so much.  You'd do good to get that sucker in your deck.  

On another note, the matchup against that Goblin Welder deck highlighted something for me;
You're not running any counter or removal.
Could Innocent Blood be worth an inclusion?
It could really help you against decks that run Goblin Lackey, Delver, Reanimator etc. that usually rely on their first creature to actually do something important for the deck.
I'm gonna give it a spin, although I'm not sure it's worth it....      
SLAVE:

I am having fun with it!

In legacy I have been stranded for a while because the deck just gets soo close, and I just need to mill 2-4 cards, or need 1 more turn to win, or needed 1 more life to live that needed turn.

Which is why jwar island was included. I based the manabase on how many bojukabogs I could cram into it, without hurting the speed of the deck. The answer was 2. Later I started using leyline in main, so bojuka was obsolete. I also had some games against goblins where I just needed 1 life, and I wanted to find something close to underground sea. Jwar isle refuge simply fills the niche!

In modern there is a lot of "emratron" decks, and I've adapted the deck there into something that removes emrakul fairly easy, so I might combine the two designs at a point to take out sneakshow.

During the modern-tournaments I discovered that engineered explosives was legal, and started to play it against cheap beatdown. It works so well that I've actually transfered it to my legacy sideboard. Which almost answers the bridge/meekstone question. I have tried meekstone, but there are too many creatures in legacy with 2 in pow to make it worth it, and it's easy to play around. The explosives cover so much more of the meta. (Even the painter matchups!)

Innocent blood was one of the oldest picks, and I simply moved on to other choices.

My legacy sideboard these days:
3 darkblast
3 engineered explosives
3 grafdigger's cage
3 submerge (Hits 44% of the meta. I have 4 vision charm in main for further 36% of the meta)
3 surgical extraction

The modern sideboard is:
3 damnation
3 darkblast
3 echoing truth
3 engineered explosives
3 extirpate


I am having fun with it!

In legacy I have been stranded for a while because the deck just gets soo close, and I just need to mill 2-4 cards, or need 1 more turn to win, or needed 1 more life to live that needed turn.
Which is why jwar island was included. I based the manabase on how many bojukabogs I could cram into it, without hurting the speed of the deck. The answer was 2. Later I started using leyline in main, so bojuka was obsolete. I also had some games against goblins where I just needed 1 life, and I wanted to find something close to underground sea. Jwar isle refuge simply fills the niche!

My legacy sideboard these days:
3 darkblast
3 engineered explosives
3 grafdigger's cage
3 submerge (Hits 44% of the meta. I have 4 vision charm in main for further 36% of the meta)
3 surgical extraction

The modern sideboard is:
3 damnation
3 darkblast
3 echoing truth
3 engineered explosives
3 extirpate





Nice. 
RE: the refuge's. I can understand what you're saying, but I'd much rather chuck in a few Expedition Map and a single Glacial Chasm than them.  Map would also give you access to running singleton bomb-lands like Karakas or Maze of Ith potentially.


Engineered Explosives sounds great.  Darkblast is a bit cute, but I get it.  
I would actually consider some discard/counter spells for the side, as fast combo/storm is still going to be hard to beat. 
Expedition map + special land is a very nice combo and may actually be the only way to get a good grip on sneakshow. I dislike spending the 3 mana, but I don't think crop rotation would be much better. (Adding green could introduce abrupt decay, which would be nice)

Karakas alone opts for a venture into a WU version (Or BWU) with path to exile which fits archive trap as the second reason for doing such a thing.

I dislike counterspells in the millingdeck, but discard is something that would fit very well with surgical/extirpate. (Discard is better because it is active rather than reactive, and active decks seem to be the better pick. Control fits perhaps 33% of the meta :D )

For a long time I thought grafdigger's cage was unable to work on stuff like reanimate or natural order, so until now it's just been sideboard. I might try to see how it works in mainboard too.
 
I'm also at a stage where I'm trying to fit some of the previous sideboard stuff into mainboard, like 1-2    
darkblast or engineered explosives in main and the rest in the board. After all the meta IS pretty creature heavy in both legacy and modern.

Your expedition map would fit well into a variant of my modern focussing a lot on artisfacts, but I have thought of how many people in modern would have stuff like stony silence?
Anyways, the core idea is to add seat of the synod, vault of whispers and  darksteel citadel to the lands alongside with some mox opals, which would enable the deck to cast some stuff much earlier than usual, also I would get rid of mind sculpt and insert 4 grinding station which has been faster than mesmeric orb in tests with many artisfacts in the deck. This would enhance my chances of milling dreamtwist into my grave with the orb, since I can untap grinding station whenever an opponent plays an artifact. 

If anyone within modern thinks this is a cool/bad idea, let me know! 
Wasteland says hi to Artifact lands.... and it's more common than I would like.
Sure they're killing one of their lands too, so that might actually be in your favour if you've managed to land a perpetual miller.

That said, I'd be curious to see how you go with Chrome Mox. 
Abrupt Decay etc., is pretty common, and not only kills your Moxen, but your a-Land's too.
I used to play Affinity, that relied on lands like these, and Abrupt Decay has well and truly killed that deck from ever being competitive due to it being almost impossible to keep mana-sources in play.

RE: Darkblast & Engineered in the main - why?
Why not focus on your fastest list for game 1?
Wasteland says hi to Artifact lands.... and it's more common than I would like.
Sure they're killing one of their lands too, so that might actually be in your favour if you've managed to land a perpetual miller.

That said, I'd be curious to see how you go with Chrome Mox. 
Abrupt Decay etc., is pretty common, and not only kills your Moxen, but your a-Land's too.
I used to play Affinity, that relied on lands like these, and Abrupt Decay has well and truly killed that deck from ever being competitive due to it being almost impossible to keep mana-sources in play.

RE: Darkblast & Engineered in the main - why?
Why not focus on your fastest list for game 1?



I'm on board with artifact lands but that's only if you aren't using any fetches at all. I still like a version with thought scour, dream twist, and brain freeze if you include a lot more fetches.

I don't agree with using Chrome Mox however because this deck doesn't seem too amazing with cards removed from hand. Also as a side note - Abrupt Decay destroys nonland so artifact lands are safe.

I agree with darkblast and engineered out of the main. You should probably keep the main deck as streamlined as possible game one because including any of this sideboard material is restrictive game one against opponents that those sideboard card doesn't interract with. Neither Darkblast nor Explosives interacts with storm for starters and there are other decks that these two are just dead against.

On that note my heart is really with seeing a successful mill deck xD