People with 70+ even 90+ card decks (non jace) getting unrealstically good draws

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Well we know that we should play around a 60 card deck in magic for optimization unless your going for a specific (very specific) strategy that requires you to have more than that, but some people aren't getting mana starved at all and coming up with great draws with huge decks.

Sure they say, they use it as a counter to jace, but when you're fightining a non-jace opponent you should have a bit of a disadvantage because your card is not trimmed and optimized.

Me and a friend just fought a 2hg agaisnt jace chandra, 3 games not one of them got mana starved, both pulling out heavy hitters/heavy burns, while AT THE SAME TIME playing a land each turn, and sometimes even the medallions...

Wtf is the point of trimming your deck in this game if the RNG doesn't account for that?
They RNG should not account for anything it should just be random.
And the Jace in your eaxample probable played his draw accelerator cards.More draws = Higher chance to get the cards you need
Why is it so unrealistic for them to play a land every turn? The more cards you add, the more lands the game auto includes in your build.
Why is it so unrealistic for them to play a land every turn? The more cards you add, the more lands the game auto includes in your build.



The game adds more land cards, but at a different ratio. In a 60-card deck 40% of the cards are land. When you start adding more, land only makes up 33% of the new cards. In a 100-card deck, only 37% of your cards are land.

This means that the more cards you have in your deck, the less likely you are to draw land. In theory.
Did you see the topic I have made long time ago which was called
THIS GAME IS BROKEN?
Ppl who play 90 or even 100 card decks draw extremely good compared to 60 card decks.
This is not the only time it happens. It happens to me like 1 out of 4 games.
I never get godlike draws with 60 card decks or very very rarely.
But 100 card deck players with their godlike draws. Ye not an OK draw, not an good draw, not an
very good draw, A GODLIKE draw.
Then I am sometimes asking me why do I have to cut any cards when I could play 100 cards too without drawing the bad cards / always getting the best cards I need?
Maybe this is just bad luck, but sometimes I am wondering really how?

-.-
It's luck.  Play in 2HG with random partners often enough and you'll see what the 100 card decks draw first-hand.  Sometimes they draw great cards; more frequently they draw pretty bad cards.  And Mana Mastery doesn't count since there are very few (two?) bad cards in the deck.

I remember the godlike draws that 100 card decks have gotten against me.  What I don't remember is stomping all of the bad 100 card decks that more typically got pretty bad draws - they aren't notable enough to remember and they happen all the time.

 
Why is it so unrealistic for them to play a land every turn? The more cards you add, the more lands the game auto includes in your build.



The game adds more land cards, but at a different ratio. In a 60-card deck 40% of the cards are land. When you start adding more, land only makes up 33% of the new cards. In a 100-card deck, only 37% of your cards are land.

This means that the more cards you have in your deck, the less likely you are to draw land. In theory.



OK. So why is it so unrealistic to play a land every turn when a minimum of 37% of your deck consists of lands and you draw a starting hand of 7 + mulligans to take a more land full hand?
If that was the case, you'd have everyone running 70-90 card decks.  Instead it's only noobs doing it, while everyone else is going 60-61.  They got lucky, that's all.
Just played another 90 card beginner who got a godlike draw vs my horrible 60 card MM draw.
He played the mill deck and killed me.
How is this even possible?
Does Wizards gives bad players a chance on purpose?
Srsly 90 cards...
-.-
I dont think its so strange big decks can get decent draws and win quite often. Most of the decks here have several cards that compete for each slot (Although many are of course weaker choices) so more cards doesn't nessessarly make them that much less effective.

If these were hard tuned decks running four of all the important cards I think the difference would be much more obvious as these giant decks would be crushed relentlessly. In this format however where sometimes you only get 1 of a card that you really want 4 you dont get to power your deck up so effectively by trimming it.

I still believe you ramp up your win rate quite effectively. I love running into 100 card decks as I know in my heart I am facing a softer target but I dont always win those matches and I think thats probably better for the game. You dont have to be a MTG anorack to win so more casual players can enjoy it.
Can't you guys just throw together a 90 card deck, then play a bunch of games and see how you do? Write down everything significant - number of lands in opening hand, number of mulligans taken, which turns drew land and which drew spells, etc.
Can't you guys just throw together a 90 card deck, then play a bunch of games and see how you do? Write down everything significant - number of lands in opening hand, number of mulligans taken, which turns drew land and which drew spells, etc.



Hey sounds like fun I'm up for that Wink
[...] I love running into 100 card decks as I know in my heart I am facing a softer target but I dont always win those matches and I think thats probably better for the game. [...]



Same here.  First thing I check when the match starts.   If I see anything but 53/54 in the library, I know I can relax.

@liang
I think you're right. In the Is it Hacked thread I postulated that the game is coded to give new players Godhands to keep them interested in playing the game.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

Ha! I've noticed that too! And losing to a player with bazillion cards is more  frustrating than to somebody who's running a trimmed deck. Noobs luck?
I've played 70 card decks since duels 09. Granted that I only play 2v2 or 4 ffa which are usualy quite longer in duration than 1v1s. 70 cards adds 3-4 extra lands in while affording me 6-7 additional cards. I dont think id win much in 1v1 but thats more a product of the decks I play and how I trim them. 70 and below jas almost no significant disadvantage against a 60 in my 2000 hours or so of duels playing.
The iPhone is perfect for people who want an easy to use, multifunction device. Android is a little more user intensive, but can do anything that iOS can do. DoTP developers, give us Duels 2014 on Android! My nexus 7/Galaxy Note 2 is easily capable of handling it if my 4 year old gateway laptop can.
The main reason to play 60 is to get the "good" cards consistantly. Which is why you also include 4-of-a-kind in decks.

With DotP, I think it matters just a little less, because in many of the decks you don't have a 4-of option for most of the cards, so you're not guarenteed to get them every game anyway. Plus some of the decks have a ton of great cards to choose from, so as long as the mana balances, you'll get something you can use, even with a few extra cards in the deck. Goblin Ganglands, for instance- you're going to draw usable cards no matter what, as long as you keep the curve tuned properly.

However, there are certain decks that must be cut to 60/61 cards. Mana Mastery is a prime example, since it relies so heavily on ramp, and you don't want to dilute the ramp cards or you won't have enough mana to cast the fatties.
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[...]70 and below has almost no significant disadvantage against a 60 in my 2000 hours or so of duels playing.



You need to define 'significant'.  Because if we assume that certain cards are stronger than onthers, then your odds of drawing them are smaller for 70 deck card.  Not something that you will notice in a game or two, but it would definitely become apparent over time.

I bet if you played 100 games with 60 cards, and then another 100 games with 70 cards in your deck, you'd see a clear difference, especially in 1vs1.
After I lost against several such decks some months ago, I went with big decks as well as a test. Not necessarily to the max though: just until I felt all nice cards were in.

Every since, I win noticably more. Not because of my skill or my opponent's lack of skill, but rather because my draws have been improved dramatically. So far, without a single exception: I didn't even have to mulligan once. And usually it aren't even the "extra cards" helping me: it are often the cards that were in the 60-cards build as well, but now all of a sudden drawn at the right moment.

Well... I lie about the "not a single exception"-part: Mana Mastery is the only exception: that just floods you with high-mana cards, wrong lands, and less fetching.
70 card MM ftw, honestly. I've always felt there was something fishy going on behind the scenes with all these oversized decks... I run both AW and MM with 70 cards, they honestly feel like they perform better, I haven't recorded statistics it just feels this way so I could be entirely wrong.
I think you guys are just remembering the time that 100card deck beat you but dismissing all the times you won.  That one time you lost sticks out more in the human mind that felt he should win.  

Say some dominate college football team just won 6 in a row to all powerhouse schools, but lost to some "minor leagueish" school on the seventh game...maybe it was just a fluke fumble on the goaline at the exact right moment...maybe dudes fake girlfriend just got buried in some fake town and he gave an emtional speech to pump his team up?...

what is espn gonna make a bigger deal about?

The 6 wins or the 1 lose....

O yea dudes fake girlfriend clearly! hahahahah

 
I think you guys are just remembering the time that 100card deck beat you but dismissing all the times you won.  That one time you lost sticks out more in the human mind that felt he should win............

 


Yes, I think this is what it probably boils down to. Whilst I can clearly remember the occasions when my slimline, lean, trimmed deck was overpowered by a massive, bloated blob of a deck, I’m pretty certain that overall my win ratio against such decks is significantly higher than it is against 60 card ones.
Testing the the theory by looking at the starting hand and 5 turns of draws vs Helix Pentacle campaign (I only play 2HG which means I'd have to factor the skill and luck of my partner in). All tested decks have been altered to first have 60 cards, then 75 cards and then 90. I also restrict to 1 mulligan if needed and I'll play only for 5 turns as that's where most things tend to happen anyways in order to get a deck going.

The reason I am testing Talrand first is because I have a real bad streak going up against big deck Talrands in 2HG with my tiny Talrand DESPITE the draw cards. I will do a 2 color deck after testing this one.

Sidenote: I also found manaproblems to result in more critical problems when playing a smaller deck. This is most appearent when playing 2 color decks. Doesn't mean 1 color decks are entirely free of mana problems.:  steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetai...




erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Raw Talrand"


60 Cards. 25 Lands (25).


A library for Crosswinds (Talrand)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~A9tt70~~Raw Talrand~~3=axpYl~~2=kOBAk~~3Bo4Bxd~~2?rQfQL~~2BWnSEu~~3AnIAXI~~1?B1Tfs~~1?d66sE~~2?frNYl~~2B4tSif~~2=Gi0XO~~1AYdIxA~~1?OVR3h~~1ATkvde~~2?k=64=~~1=4Y6DM~~2A2Aipb~~1=Gi4hy~~1BCFj6X~~1=t0uW0~~1BvWm?I~~))))))))

























































































































































































































 Creatures 
   cost  ■■■ Fog Bank  0/2   
   cost  ■■■ Rite of Replication   
 Talrand, Sky Summoner  2/2   
   cost   Bribery   
 Followed Footsteps   
 Removal 
   cost  ■■ Blatant Thievery   
 Bounce 
   cost  ■■ Disperse   
   cost  ■■ Repulse   
 Control 
   cost  ■■ Mana Leak   
   cost  ■■ Cancel   
   cost  ■■ Time Warp   
 Draw 
   cost  ■■■ Sleight of Hand   
   cost   Keep Watch   
   cost  ■■ Future Sight   
 Tidings   
   cost   Recurring Insight   
 Recycle 
   cost   Twincast   
   cost   Call to Mind   
   cost  ■■ Archaeomancer  1/2   
   cost   Panoptic Mirror   
   cost   Cast Through Time   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>




1 note about the deck is that I removed Time Reversal as I usually play it with 61 cards. For the sake of the experiment I removed it to be truly slimmed down.


Game 1
Starting hand:
2 Island
Cast Through Time
Mana Leak
Repulse
Sleight of Hand
Bribery

T1 Draw: Panoptic Mirror
Sleight resulted in a choice between Island and Footsteps. Chose Island.
T2 Draw: Cancel
T3 Draw: Sleight of Hand
Repulse got me an Island
T4 Draw: Island
Sleight resulted in a choice between Island and Disperse. Chose Island.
T5 Draw: Island

Game 2
Starting hand:
Island
Archaeomancer
Footsteps
Keep Watch
Bribery
Tidings
Blatant Thievery

Mulligan:
2 Islands
Archaeomancer
Future Sight
Sleight
Rite
Warp

T1 Draw: Island
Sleight for Footsteps and Dispere.
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw: Cancel
Play Archaeomancer for Sleight
T5 Draw:  Blatant Thievery
Sleight for Island and Recurring Insight

Game 3
Starting hand:
3 Island
Archaeomancer
Future Sight
Disperse
Mana Leak

T1 Draw: Sleight
Sleight for Cast Through Time and Cancel. Chose Cancel.
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Rite
T4 Draw: Island
Play Archaeomancer for Sleight
T5 Draw: Blatant
Sleight for Repulse and Archaeomancer

Game 4
Starting hand:
3 Island
Future Sight
Cast Through Time
Rite
Bribery

Mulligan:
4 Island
Fog Bank
Mana Leak
Cancel

T1 Draw: Blatant Thievery
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw:Repulse
Repulse got me an Island
T5 Draw: Island

Game 5
Starting hand:
6 Islands
Disperse
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetai...

Mulligan:
4 Islands
Future Sight
Sleight of Hand
Time Warp

T1 Draw: Rite
Sleight for Rite and Recurring Insight. Chose Rite.
T2 Draw: Rite O_o
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw: Bribery
T5 Draw: Island



erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Suddenly - More creatures!"


75 Cards. 30 Lands (30).


A library for Crosswinds (Talrand)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~A9tt70~~Suddenly - More creatures!~~3=axpYl~~2=kOBAk~~3Bo4Bxd~~2?rQfQL~~2BWnSEu~~3AnIAXI~~4?TdV5=~~1?B1Tfs~~1?d66sE~~2?frNYl~~3=vN?cG~~2B4tSif~~2=Gi0XO~~1AYdIxA~~1?OVR3h~~1?io1W4~~1ATkvde~~2?k=64=~~1=4Y6DM~~1BuEYZY~~2A2Aipb~~1=Gi4hy~~1BCFj6X~~1=t0uW0~~1B3k6TY~~1BvWm?I~~))))))))





































































































































































































































































 Creatures 
   cost  ■■■ Fog Bank  0/2   
   cost  ■■■ Rite of Replication   
■■■■ Talrand's Invocation   
 Talrand, Sky Summoner  2/2   
   cost   Bribery   
 Followed Footsteps   
 Removal 
   cost  ■■ Blatant Thievery   
 Bounce 
   cost  ■■ Disperse   
   cost  ■■ Repulse   
 Control 
   cost  ■■ Mana Leak   
   cost  ■■ Cancel   
   cost  ■■ Time Warp   
 Draw 
   cost  ■■■ Sleight of Hand   
   cost  ■■■ Azure Mage  2/1   
   cost   Keep Watch   
   cost  ■■ Future Sight   
 Tidings   
   cost   Flow of Ideas   
 Recurring Insight   
 Recycle 
   cost   Twincast   
   cost   Call to Mind   
   cost  ■■ Archaeomancer  1/2   
   cost   Panoptic Mirror   
   cost   Cast Through Time   
 Utility 
   cost   Gravitational Shift   
 Time Reversal   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>







Game 1
Starting hand:
2 Islands
Azure Mage
Archaeomancer
Disperse
Keep Watch
Repulse

T1 Draw: Island
T2 Draw: Cast Through Time
T3 Draw: Future Sight
Keep Watch for Rite
T4 Draw: Fog Bank - I'm stuck @ 3 mana.
Repulse for Flow of Ideas
T5 Draw: Azure Mage

Game 2
Starting hand:
3 islands
Footsteps
2 Sleight of Hands
Talrand's Invokation

T1 Draw: Island
Sleight for Keep Watch and Island. Chose Island
T2 Draw: Call to Mind
Sleight for Azure Mage and Rite. Chose Rite
T3 Draw: Time Warp
Play Azure Mage
T4 Draw: Island
Play Call to Mind for Sleight
Sleight for Island and Future Sight. Chose Island
T5 Draw: Island
Azure Mages Ability for another island


Game 3
Starting hand:
2 Islands
Azure Mage
Fog Bank
Rite
Invokation
Bribery

Mulligan:
2 Islands
Archaeomancer
Future Sight
2 Repulse
Invokation

T1 Draw: Azure Mage
T2 Draw: Island
Play Azure Mage
T3 Draw: Azure Mage
Repulse for Island
T4 Draw: Island
Repulse for Future Sight
T5 Draw: Footsteps
Azure Mage's Ability for Invokation

Game 4
Starting hand:
5 Islands
Mirror
Sleight

T1 Draw: Island
Sieght for Island and Island. Chose Island. (I just love writing the word Island)
T2 Draw: Cast Through Time
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw: Flow of Ideas
T5 Draw: Blatant Thievery

Game 5
Starting hand:
3 Islands
Archaeomancer
Repulse
Rite
Recurring Insight

T1 Draw: Fog Bank
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Time Reversal
Repulse for Tidings
T4 Draw: Island
Archaeo for Repulse
T5 Draw: Island
Tidings for 2 Islands, Call to Mind and Blatant Thievery


erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Motherlode"


90 Cards. 35 Lands (35).


A library for Crosswinds (Talrand)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~A9tt70~~Motherlode~~1?tOp5Q~~3=axpYl~~2=kOBAk~~2BfyoSc~~3Bo4Bxd~~2AHFOt0~~2?rQfQL~~2BWnSEu~~3AnIAXI~~4?TdV5=~~1?B1Tfs~~1B?b7Y6~~1?d66sE~~2?frNYl~~3=vN?cG~~2B4tSif~~2=Gi0XO~~1AYdIxA~~1BRCg=9~~1?OVR3h~~1?io1W4~~1ATkvde~~2?k=64=~~1BHnK7A~~1??47jy~~1=4Y6DM~~1BuEYZY~~2A2Aipb~~1=Gi4hy~~1BCFj6X~~1=t0uW0~~1BdVx5x~~1B3k6TY~~1BvWm?I~~))))))))








































































































































































































































































































































 Creatures 
   cost  ■■■ Fog Bank  0/2   
   cost  ■■■ Rite of Replication   
■■■■ Talrand's Invocation   
 Talrand, Sky Summoner  2/2   
   cost   Bribery   
 Followed Footsteps   
 Sphinx of Lost Truths  3/5   
 Direct damage 
   cost   Sphinx-Bone Wand   
 Removal 
   cost  ■■ Blatant Thievery   
 Bounce 
   cost  ■■ Disperse   
   cost  ■■ Repulse   
 Control 
   cost  ■■ Mana Leak   
 Spiketail Hatchling  1/1   
   cost  ■■ Cancel   
   cost   Spiketail Drake  3/3   
■■ Time Warp   
   cost   Time Stretch   
 Draw 
   cost   Curiosity   
■■■ Sleight of Hand   
   cost  ■■■ Azure Mage  2/1   
   cost   Keep Watch   
   cost  ■■ Future Sight   
 Tidings   
   cost   Flow of Ideas   
 Recurring Insight   
 Recycle 
   cost   Twincast   
   cost   Call to Mind   
   cost  ■■ Archaeomancer  1/2   
   cost   Panoptic Mirror   
   cost   Cast Through Time   
 Utility 
   cost  ■■ Favorable Winds   
■■ Ring of Evos Isle   
   cost   Gravitational Shift   
 Time Reversal   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>







Game 1
Starting hand:
3 Islands
Favorable Wind
Cast Through Time
Time Warp
Recurring Insight

Mulligan:
3 Islands
Spiketail Drake
Mana Leak
Invokation
Time Stretch

T1 Draw: Disperse
T2 Draw: Repulse
T3 Draw: Island
Repulse for Blatant Thievery
T4 Draw: Fog Bank
T5 Draw: Island

Game 2
Starting hand:
Island
Azure Mage
Future Sight
2 Repulse
Invokation
Time Warp

Mulligan:
2 Islands
Azure Mage
Archaeomancer
Ring of Evos Isle
Invokation
Blatant Thievery

T1 Draw: Island
T2 Draw: Island
Play Azure Mage
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw: Sleight of Hand
Azure Mage's Ability for Cancel
T5 Draw: Rite
Slight of hand for Cancel and Archaeomancer
Azure Mage's Ability for Flow of Ideas

Game 3
Starting hand:
Island
Fog Bank
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Cast Through Time
Mana Leak
Slieght of Hand
Time Warp

Mulligan:
3 Island
Spiketail Hatchling
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Rite
Recurring Insight

T1 Draw: Island
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Island
T4 Draw: Island
T5 Draw: Sleight of Hand
Sleight for Invokation and Blatant Thievery

Game 4
Starting hand:
5 Islands
Mana Leak
Fog Bank

Mulligan:
4 Lands
Repulse
Flow of Ideas
Recurring Insight

T1 Draw: Island
T2 Draw: Rite
T3 Draw: Fogbank
Repulse for Keep Watch - I'm curious..What are the odds of so many big draw cards hitting me in such a fat deck?
T4 Draw: Future Sight
T5 Draw: Island

Game 5
Starting hand:
2 Islands
Azure Mage
Fog Bank
Disperse
Invokation Thievery

Mulligan:
2 Islands
Archaeomancer
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Fav Winds
Repulse
Tidings

T1 Draw: Cancel
T2 Draw: Island
T3 Draw: Island
Repulse for Island
T4 Draw: Island
Archeo for Repulse
T5 Draw: Cast Through Time
Tidings for Fog Bank, Rite, Time Warp and Recurring Insights

Personal Conclusion:
The draws are not that bad. But the more cards, the more luck you require in order to get the cards you want. Also you are more likely to encounter more hands you need to mulligan. But I cannot escape the feeling that the game seems to spoonfeed me when I played the 90 card deck. Case being Game 3 and Game 5 where I was somehow made sure I would not lack lands while also having decent other cards to keep me in the game a little.  And yes, I didn't count game 4 with all the draw cards since it was just plain silly luck... I hope. But it is also clear that the 60 card deck went WAY more smooth in terms of filtering the deck and getting cards.

Will do the same test with 2 colors later today or tomorow.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

I think the emotional feeling that a larger deck should play worse is overshadowing the statistics here.  It's not supposed to be night-and-day, great-and-terrible.. a larger deck will play *somewhat* worse.  The odds of drawing a much worse card are not significantly higher in most of the decks, where there are at least 80 cards worth of reasonably good stuff anyway.

I think this feeling is excerbated by the fact that someone playing a larger deck probably is not a pro at strategy or the game rules,  and their poor play IMO will make their win percentage fall far more than the disadvantage of what they draw.
Finished testing 1 color deck.

Personal Conclusion:
The draws are not that bad. But the more cards, the more luck you require in order to get the cards you want. Also you are more likely to encounter more hands you need to mulligan. But I cannot escape the feeling that the game seems to spoonfeed me when I played the 90 card deck. Case being Game 3 and Game 5 where I was somehow made sure I would not lack lands while also having decent other cards to keep me in the game a little.  And yes, I didn't count game 4 with all the draw cards since it was just plain silly luck... I hope. But it is also clear that the 60 card deck went WAY more smooth in terms of filtering the deck and getting cards.

Will do the same test with 2 colors later today or tomorow.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

Only experience I have with a 90ish card deck is playing SS once. Apparently I was in the middle of building it and then had to shut the game off or something because I added a ton of cards but didn't cut any out.

Completely did not notice that anything was amiss until I wondered why I wasn't getting Rancor then noticed the size of my Library graphic.

But yeah, won the game with little difficulty. Never did see Rancor...

Only experience I have with a 90ish card deck is playing SS once. Apparently I was in the middle of building it and then had to shut the game off or something because I added a ton of cards but didn't cut any out.

Completely did not notice that anything was amiss until I wondered why I wasn't getting Rancor then noticed the size of my Library graphic.

But yeah, won the game with little difficulty. Never did see Rancor...




Well, since you came up with it, I'll do the test with SS now. Let's see how many times I'll get it...or get Swamped.....yeah lame pun.


erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Starter"


60 Cards. 24 Lands (10 10; 4 other).


A library for Sepulchral Strength (Golgari)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~B72yFn~~Starter~~2=JyfVM~~2AxniPy~~2AYbc44~~2?0bKoO~~1AiWbvi~~1=amrRR~~2BEoJ0C~~2?HTqGq~~2=efQW=~~2=9R92S~~2AF9Z=s~~2?37?kF~~2AsJCuI~~4?JDdWS~~2?LeSi2~~2=OP1bK~~4AriHbV~~2=RvKxl~~1?m5O8J~~1Az8nYT~~))))))))

























































































































































































 Land 
 Spell ■■■■ Evolving Wilds  [/m]Land[m
   cost  
 Spell ■■ Rancor   
   cost  
 Creature  Abyssal Gatekeeper  1/1   
■■ Blood Artist  0/1   
■■ Ravenous Rats  1/1   
■■ Viridian Emissary  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Diabolic Edict   
■■■■ Go for the Throat   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Bloodflow Connoisseur  1/1   
■■ Yavimaya Elder  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Consume Strength   
■■ Maelstrom Pulse   
■■ Pernicious Deed   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Creakwood Liege  2/2  ()()(
■■ Master of the Wild Hunt  3/3   
■■ Mortivore  */*   
■■ Sewer Nemesis  */*   
 Spell  Consuming Vapors   
 Defense of the Heart   
 Grave Pact   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>







Game 1
Starting hand:
Swamp
Rats
Elder
Liege
Master of the Wild Hunt
Deed
Defense of the Heart

Mulligan:
Forest
2 Swamp
Liege
Mortivore
Deed
Pulse

T1 Draw: Bloodflow Connoisseur
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Pulse
T4 Draw: Rats
T5 Draw: Forest

Game 2
Starting hand:
Fetchland
Forest
Swamp
Artist
Elder
Gravepact
Go for the Throat

T1 Draw: Elder
Played Fetchland and used it to get Forest
T2 Draw: Defense of the Heart
T3 Draw: Liege
Played Elder
T4 Draw: Go for the Throat
Used Elder's ability for 2 lands and Consuming Vapors
T5 Draw: Forest

Game 3
Starting hand:
3 Forest
Swamp
Deed
Go for the Throat
Pulse

T1 Draw: Forest
T2 Draw: Go for the Throat
T3 Draw: Nemisis
T4 Draw: Fetch land
T5 Draw: Vapors

Game 4
Starting hand:
2 Swamp
Artist
Rancor
Go for the Throat
Consume Strength
Pulse

Mulligan:
2 Forest
Swamp
2 Master of the Wild Hunt
Mortivore
Diabolic Edict

T1 Draw: Forest
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Vapors
T4 Draw: Go for the Throat
T5 Draw: Fetch Land

Game 5
Starting hand:
2 Forest
Swamp
Gatekeeper
Connoisseur
Rancor
Consume Strength

T1 Draw: Fetch land
Used Fetch Land for Swamp
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Elder
T4 Draw: Go For the Throat
Played Elder
T5 Draw: Defense of the Heart
Elder's Ability for 2 lands and Go for the Throat



erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Growing bigger"


75 Cards. 29 Lands (13 12; 4 other).


A library for Sepulchral Strength (Golgari)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~B72yFn~~Growing bigger~~2=JyfVM~~2AxniPy~~2AYbc44~~2?0bKoO~~2Al3zwi~~1AiWbvi~~1=amrRR~~2BEoJ0C~~2?HTqGq~~2=efQW=~~4=9R92S~~2AF9Z=s~~1=sxfzn~~2?37?kF~~2AsJCuI~~4?JDdWS~~2?LeSi2~~2=OP1bK~~4AriHbV~~2BT4pvY~~2?qwIl9~~2=RvKxl~~1?m5O8J~~1Az8nYT~~1A2XD3A~~))))))))



































































































































































































































 Land 
 Spell ■■■■ Evolving Wilds  [/m]Land[m
   cost  
 Spell ■■ Rancor   
   cost  
 Creature  Abyssal Gatekeeper  1/1   
■■ Blood Artist  0/1   
■■ Ravenous Rats  1/1   
■■ Viridian Emissary  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Diabolic Edict   
■■■■ Go for the Throat   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Bloodflow Connoisseur  1/1   
■■■■ Yavimaya Elder  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Consume Strength   
 Golgari Germination   
■■ Maelstrom Pulse   
■■ Mind Rot   
■■ Pernicious Deed   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Creakwood Liege  2/2  ()()(
■■ Master of the Wild Hunt  3/3   
■■ Mortivore  */*   
■■ Oracle of Mul Daya  2/2   
■■ Sewer Nemesis  */*   
 Spell  Consuming Vapors   
 Damnation   
 Defense of the Heart   
 Grave Pact   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Mitotic Slime  4/4   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>







Game 1
Starting hand:
2 Artist
Master of the Wild Hunt
Germination
2 Go for the Throat
Consume Strength

Mulligan:
2 Swamp
Rats
Emissary
Connoisseur
Germination
Vapors

T1 Draw: Swamp
T2 Draw: Swamp - Gee I think I should stop making lame puns involving these types of land.
T3 Draw: Grave Pact
T4 Draw: Elder
T5 Draw: Liege

Game 2
Starting hand:
Forest
2 Swamp
Fetch land
Deed
Defense of the Heart
Go for the Throat

T1 Draw: Fetch land
Played fetch land for Forest
T2 Draw: Consume Strength
Played Fetch land for Forest
T3 Draw: Artist
T4 Draw: Rancor
T5 Draw: Rats

Game 3
Starting hand:
Forest
Fetch land
Emissary
Connoisseur
Nemisis
Consume Strength
Vapors

T1 Draw: Mortivore
T2 Draw: Elder
Played Emisary
T3 Draw: Mortivore - Took the gamble and got stuck with 2 lands
T4 Draw: Emissary
T5 Draw: Liege

Game 4
Starting hand:
2 Forest
2 Swamp
Rats
Grave Pact
Go for the Throat

T1 Draw: Forest
T2 Draw: Go for the Throat
T3 Draw: Fetch land
Played Fetch land for Swamp
T4 Draw: Fetch land
Played Fetch land for Forest
T5 Draw: Vapors

Game 5
Starting hand:
2 Swamp
Connoisseur
Elder
Mortivore
SlimeDiabolic Edict

Mulligan:
Forest
Fetch Land
Slime
Deed
Go for the Throat
Consume Strength
Mind Rot

T1 Draw: Forest
Played Fetch Land for Swamp
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Defense of the Heart
T4 Draw: Diabolic Edict
T5 Draw: Mind Rot



erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"Fatty fatty fat fat"


90 Cards. 34 Lands (14 16; 4 other).


A library for Sepulchral Strength (Golgari)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~B72yFn~~Fatty fatty fat fat~~3=IS40U~~2=JyfVM~~2AxniPy~~2AYbc44~~2?0bKoO~~2Al3zwi~~1AiWbvi~~1=amrRR~~2BEoJ0C~~2AX76cu~~2?HTqGq~~2=efQW=~~4=9R92S~~2AF9Z=s~~1=sxfzn~~2?37?kF~~2AsJCuI~~4?JDdWS~~2?LeSi2~~2=OP1bK~~4AriHbV~~2BT4pvY~~2?qwIl9~~2=RvKxl~~2BJjDHQ~~2=qtApp~~1=9OWga~~1?m5O8J~~1Az8nYT~~1A2XD3A~~))))))))













































































































































































































































































 Land 
 Spell ■■■■ Evolving Wilds  [/m]Land[m
   cost  
 Spell ■■ Rancor   
   cost  
 Creature  Abyssal Gatekeeper  1/1   
■■ Blood Artist  0/1   
■■ Ravenous Rats  1/1   
■■ Viridian Emissary  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Diabolic Edict   
■■■■ Go for the Throat   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Bloodflow Connoisseur  1/1   
■■ Troll Ascetic  3/2   
 Yavimaya Dryad  2/1   
■■■■ Yavimaya Elder  2/1   
 Spell ■■ Consume Strength   
 Golgari Germination   
■■ Maelstrom Pulse   
■■ Mind Rot   
■■ Pernicious Deed   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Creakwood Liege  2/2  ()()(
■■ Master of the Wild Hunt  3/3   
■■ Mortivore  */*   
■■ Oracle of Mul Daya  2/2   
■■ Sewer Nemesis  */*   
 Spell  Consuming Vapors   
 Damnation   
 Defense of the Heart   
 Grave Pact   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Lord of Extinction  */*   
■■ Mitotic Slime  4/4   
■■■ Vulturous Zombie  3/3   
   cost  
 Creature ■■ Pelakka Wurm  7/7   




erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>







Game 1
Starting hand:
Fetchland
2 Swamp
Mortivore
Lord
Go for the Throat
Vapors

T1 Draw: Oracle
Played fetch land for Forest
T2 Draw: Forest
T3 Draw: Go for the Throat
T4 Draw: Forest
T5 Draw: Elder

Game 2
Starting hand:
2 Forest
Rats
Elder
Liege
Mortivore
Go for the Throat

T1 Draw: Forest
T2 Draw: Dryad
T3 Draw: Vulturous
Played Elder
T4 Draw: Vulturous - TWO?
Elder's Ability for 2 lands and SWAMP
T5 Draw: Swamp

Game 3
Starting hand:
Fetch land
Forest
Artist
Troll
Master
Deed
Mind Rot

Mulligan:
Forest
2 Swamp
Elder
Oracle
Deed
Defense of the Heart

T1 Draw: Damnation
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Pulse
T4 Draw: Swamp
T5 Draw: Artist

Game 4
Starting hand:
Forest
Elder
Master
Mortivore
Vulturous
Germination
Damnation

Mulligan:
4 Forest
2 Swamp
Defense of the Heart

-.-'

T1 Draw: Swamp
T2 Draw: Swamp
T3 Draw: Swamp
T4 Draw: Rats
Played Defense of the Heart
T5 Draw: FOREST

steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetai...

Game 5
Starting hand:
Forest
3 Swamp
Artist
Deed
Diabolic Edict

T1 Draw: Consume Strength
T2 Draw: Gatekeeper
T3 Draw: Connoisseur
T4 Draw: Liege
T5 Draw: Swamp

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

Conclusion:
I still have no idea why big decks do so well. I dont know anything of statistics but the cards draw with bigger decks, seem to be quite okay. But for the rest of the game after T5 I expect there still is a risk/reward thing going on. Also it might not have been too reflective as the decks I tested with had draw cards and cards that shuffled the deck...

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

To give some color to what I said earlier about the draws not being that much worse in a 60 vs. 80 card deck, consider this.. after you take your first seven cards, the odds of a specific one-of showing up in your next draw in a 60 card deck is 1.8%.  In an 80 card deck, it's 1.4%.  If you're looking for one of a four-of that you didn't have in your opening hand in that draw, you're looking at 7.5% versus 5.5%.  Other statistics (such as the probability of getting a certain card in your opening hand) are not *drastically* different either.

It's certainly best to have the least cards, but a larger deck shouldn't be expected to only spit out bad cards by any means.  However, it does hint that the pilot is probably inexperienced. 
"29 minutes ago by gardenweasel
To give some color to what I said earlier about the draws not being that much worse in a 60 vs. 80 card deck, consider this.. after you take your first seven cards, the odds of a specific one-of showing up in your next draw in a 60 card deck is 1.8%. In an 80 card deck, it's 1.4%. If you're looking for one of a four-of that you didn't have in your opening hand in that draw, you're looking at 7.5% versus 5.5%. Other statistics (such as the probability of getting a certain card in your opening hand) are not *drastically* different either.

It's certainly best to have the least cards, but a larger deck shouldn't be expected to only spit out bad cards by any means. However, it does hint that the pilot is probably inexperienced"

I was trying to figure out the draw percents last night and I came to pretty much the same conclusion for 70 card decks. The odds of draw are just a smidgen less with the benefit of having more options in your deck.
The iPhone is perfect for people who want an easy to use, multifunction device. Android is a little more user intensive, but can do anything that iOS can do. DoTP developers, give us Duels 2014 on Android! My nexus 7/Galaxy Note 2 is easily capable of handling it if my 4 year old gateway laptop can.
A very interesting experiment would be building real decks exactly the same as the virtual decks, then comparing a 60-cards virtual deck to the same 60-cards real deck, and a X-cards virtual deck to the same X-cards real deck (with X being well over 60), and see the difference. Unfortunately, I don't have the cards for this.
A very interesting experiment would be building real decks exactly the same as the virtual decks, then comparing a 60-cards virtual deck to the same 60-cards real deck, and a X-cards virtual deck to the same X-cards real deck (with X being well over 60), and see the difference. Unfortunately, I don't have the cards for this.



That's an actual good idea. Anyone else able to do this? Because I don't have the cards as well.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

There's are plenty of deck building sites, which offer you a test draw and even playing with it (just drawing and putting stuff on the board). Tappedout is one example, im sure there are others.
There's are plenty of deck building sites, which offer you a test draw and even playing with it (just drawing and putting stuff on the board). Tappedout is one example, im sure there are others.



The test is about checking if there is a difference in draw caused by the human factor. That's why another sim would not be an objective way to test it.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg)

Well of course the human factor is a big thing. 90% of players never really shuffle their libraries to the full random, that's why you can't really test with physical cards unless you do some proper shuffling for 15 minutes. And I doubt testing on another site would be just another sim, you can't just dismiss the possibility that the game may sometimes help you with your draw. At least I would make it that way for new players to have fun and reduce the number of dead hands
If you ask me (and I'm quite sure I'll be in the severe minority on this), the reason you guys feel as though these bigger decks are getting 'lucky' is because of the ridiculously one-sided, game changing, or overpowered cards that have been the focus of this iteration of DOTP.

I didn't play DOTP 09, but came in for the 2012 version, which I was a big fan of.  I felt like the way in which I built my deck gave me a real upperhand against my opponents, based on my choices.  I felt like there was some good balance, where strategy played a more integral role (from deck building strategy, to how you play your hand/utilize those cards during the game).  In this latest iteration, 2013, they've swung the pendulum so far towards power cards that it comes down to who draws 1 or 2 of the "oh **** I win" cards (of which there's probably 6-10 per deck) first, and unless the opponent has one of their few options to deal with this new game changing event, it's game over. 

So the people are 'getting lucky' but it's because there's so many powerhouse cards in these ridiculous decks where they only need to find 1 or 2 of the half dozen in order to sway the game in their favor.   
There are a ton of powerful cards.  But the decks as a whole are very well balanced.  There are some with terrible matchups but any given deck can perform well against the majority of the field even if certain decks will consistently own them.  Even the weakest decks can regularly win against most of the field if built well and played correctly.  The deck with the most powerful cards - Mana Mastery - sucks against at least a third of the field even if it dominates another third of it.

Part of the strategy for playing the game effectively is conserving your defensive options and playing them only when you really NEED to - like when they play a bomb.   
Plus how much difference does it make if say I have 4 2cost cards and 9 3cost cards in my 60 card deck... when the other guy has 8 2cost and 18 3 cost in his 120 card deck?

Some people see odd card choices at just the worst time and assume he just drew it.  How do you know his plague wind wasn't sitting in his hand all game long? Unless he was out of cards you don't, but its human nature to think he just drew it at the worst/best time possible... 

I have even had teamates that are convinced when we are playing 100card decks that the game somehow magically wants to mana screw us just to give them a chance!!! hahah smh 
I didn't play DOTP 09, but came in for the 2012 version, which I was a big fan of.



All I remember from 2012, was that you couldn't possibly lose while playing Jayce's deck.
I didn't play DOTP 09, but came in for the 2012 version, which I was a big fan of.



All I remember from 2012, was that you couldn't possibly lose while playing Jayce's deck.




Meh.
Pyroclasm and Punishing Fire made Jace sad.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

I didn't play DOTP 09, but came in for the 2012 version, which I was a big fan of.



All I remember from 2012, was that you couldn't possibly lose while playing Jayce's deck.




Meh.
Pyroclasm and Punishing Fire made Jace sad.



People were actually using lifegain in RoI?  On the other hand you had 5 counter spells, a bunch of 'return creature to hand' and card draw spells, plus Mind Control and Bribery.  You really could play a dozen of games before even coming close to losing (usually Vamps).  I'd much rather face GG than RoI.