Baja's Collaborative List of the Best Heroic Powers 2013

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This is not for the CharOp forums. It is for the General. Please move it back to General when possible, thanks. 

This list highlights 75 of the 4000 Heroic powers. Over 75% of it was generated by the community so far. 
All information is presented with a bias, and none of the information is to be considered definitive as there 
are just to many variables including DMs and Players Etc.

The opinions here will not 100% coinside with your own. It is just one of many views of the  non-linear Heroic Powers.
Whenever creating a character it is always a good idea to check many guides.

New notation is being introduced slowly this year.
Usage/Action Type  denoted as (D,E,A,U)/(S/M/m/F/I/R) for (daily, encounter, at-will, utility)/(standard, move, minor, free, interrupt, reaction)

Contents:
Best List
Great List
Heavily Contested Powers
Information on the List


Tthe list's best powers for heroic tier.
 (25) max
 

 

Ardent - Mindlink Strike - 2 augments - close burst 1 ~2w and one 1w 

Artificer - Punishing Eye - moving 48sq area adds mod damage to all pc attacks, denys concealment

 

 

Battlemind - Lodestone Lure - 2 augments - melee 5, 1w, pull 4, knock prone, can't move away from you

Cleric - Moment of Glory - knock an enemy away and down and sustain resist 5 for all party members
Cleric - Healing Word E/m, burst 5, heals you or an ally surge a few d6 dependent on level
 3 votes Raegoul, Xaspian, Zelink


Druid - Grasping Tide - A/S, burst 1 in 10 vs fort, d6+mod, restrict enemy movement or prone
Druid- Entangle - D/S, area burst 2 in 10, d6+mod, target nads, immobilize, slow zone w/crit help UEoE
3 votes Fitzco, Xaspian, and Flavatar
Druid - Grasping Claws - because this

Fighter - Rain of Steel - spend one minor to deal 1w to any enemy starting near you during the encounter
Fighter - Bedeviling Assault - 2w+mod, 1 free mba against that target per round for the encounter
Fighter - Rain of Blows - 2 potentially 3 attacks, can instant kill most Heroic monsters with modifier damage

Paladin - Astral Thunder - Close burst 3, 2d8 and attack penalties, as an encounter 
Paladin - Wrath of the Gods - Close burst 1 utility minor action, buffs damage by charisma mod for encounter

 

 

Ranger - Spitting Cobra Stance - 1w any enemy that moved toward you

 

 

Rogue - Knockout - knock enemy unconscious 

Sorcerer - Adamantine Echo - AoE w/ongoing damage, +2-7 ac bonus w/support
Uscias, Bohrdumb, Raegoul 3 votes

Swordmage - Sword Burst - close burst at-will vs reflex

 

 

Wizard - Sleep - knock enemies unconscious
Wizard - Summon Succubus - debuff enemies, dominate enemies, fly
Wizard - Visions of Avarice - burst 5 in 10 trap your enemy in a zone sustain minor
Wizard - Prestidigitation - unlimited roleplaying uses
Raegoul, Bohrdumb, Xaspian 3 votes

 

 

Warlock - Decree of Khirad - almost dominate close blast 3, consolation damage

Warlord - Lead the Attack - 3w + mod, party bonus to attack rolls on the target
Warlord - Stand the Fallen - 3w+mod and allies healed  surge+mod  
Warlord - Lamb to the Slaughter - Pull enemy 5, enable three allies a free charge attack 

This thread was made for fun, keep it fun! 

 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

The list's Great Powers of Heroic Tier:
(50) max 1 open slot


Ardent - Forward-Thinking Cut - 2 augments - 1w and 2w via allies
Artificer - Magic Weapon - 1w and buff party attack and damage by con or wis modifier at-will

Avenger - Fury's Advance - minor action 1w, extra damage, push, and shift

Bard - Revitalizing Incantation - double heal an ally for a minor action
Bard - Misdirected Mark - 1w and mark enemy in 10 by ally in 5 of you
Bard - Song of Discord - dominate an enemy

Battlemind - Lightning Rush - 2 augments - triggered vs ac, 2w attack vs 1 target ac and you take the damage

Cleric - Iron to Glass - reduces enemy melee attacks by 4-10

Druid - Charm Beast - dominate a creature
Druid - Magic Stones - three attacks vs reflex, low damage

Fighter - Dual Strike - two attack at-will melee
Fighter - Daring Shot - Minor action burst 1 mark enemies gain con mod + targets hp
Fighter - Crushing Surge - Battlerager fighters continually get 2(con mod) temp hp

Invoker - Silent Malediction - stun close blast 3
Invoker - Thunder of Judgment - damage, daze, push 3 enemies
Invoker - Divine Bolts- two attacks vs reflex as at-will

Psion - Dishearten - burst 1 in 10 penalize enemies to hit until end of turn deal d6-2d6
Psion - Lightning Rush - 2 augments - triggered vs ac, 2w attack vs 1 target ac and you take the damage

Ranger - Off-Hand Strike - 1w as a minor
Ranger - Ruffling Sting - 1w minor grants ca
Ranger - Disruptive Strike - immediate interrupt, 1w enemy attack penalty 3+wis
Ranger - Jaws of the Wolf - 2(2w+mod) vs ac, half miss
Ranger - Invigorating Stride - second wind as move action, shift wis mod
Ranger - Attacks on the Run - 2(3W+mod) move as standard if no AoOs


Rogue - Low Slash - minor action attack 1w push slow
Rogue - Snap Shot - minor action 1w attack
Rogue - Riposte Strike - at-will  can beat twin strike, but depends on the dm
Rogue - Gloaming Cut - at-will 1w + sneak attack while hiding continuously

Scorcerer - Flame Spiral - level 3, 3 targets get (d10+char) vs reflex, d6 once per enemy for one turn
Sorcerer - Lightning Cuts - Encounter minor action 2w lightning vs ref
Sorcerer - Slaad's Gambit - trig you're hit, teleport before it, 2d10+mod daily

Shaman - Spirit Infusion - your ally MBAs with your int mod damage bonus and +2 to hit at-will

Swordmage - Ghost Step - a stance to shift an extra square when you shift
Swordmage - Dimensional Vortex - interrupt, teleport enemy to attack it's ally, aegis bonus damage
Swordmage - Transposing Lunge - (with shielding) 2w interrupt, teleport an enemy from out of range to you 


Warlord - Reorient the Axis - allies shift warlord int modifier, move action encounter power
Warlord - Vengeance is Mine - encounter power, you hit and an ally can hit as free action
Warlord - Powerful Warning - ally def boost, they can MBA

Wizard - Wall of Fire - 8 sq wall blocks line of sight and deals damage
Wizard - Color Spray - close blast 5 dazing
Wizard - Mirage Arcana - daze trap your enemy bust 2 in 10
Wizard - Twist of Space - burst 1 in 10 teleport enemies 3sq  slow (put them in a trap)
Wizard - Illusory Wall - block line of sight and movement of enemies 8 squares in 20
Wizard - Hypnotic Pattern - trap your enemies 
Wizard - Arc Lightning - two attacks vs reflex as at-will
Wizard - Instant Friends - make your enemies cooperate

Warlock - Touch of Command - immediate interrupt dominate an enemy 

Skill Power - Prescient Maneuver - they move, you move away as an interrupt
Skill Power - Inspiring Fortitude - Grant your allies THP everyday for a second wind out of combat

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Notable debates:

Bedeviling Assault vs Thicket of Blades:
TOB does more damage overall, BA does more damage to a particular enemy in two rounds 

Bedeviling Assault vs Hellsworn Blessing:
Hellsworn Blessing gives the party more damage in three rounds.  

Flame Spiral vs Thicket of Blades:
TOB does more damage overall, Flame Spiral does damage and deters melee on the caster

Riposte Strike vs Twin Strike:
If the dm chooses to attack the riposter, it can produce higher damage.

Misdirected Mark:
It is defender/party/dm dependent, can be great for drawing enemies into AOE. 

Grasping Claws vs Lightning Rush:
Lightning Rush diverts the damage, Grasping Claws can be set to stop enemy attacks at-will.

Wrath of the Gods:
Originally it was overlooked. Every character has to pick utility powers. This is one of the best.

Rain of Blows:
Does less damage than flame spiral, ToB, and Bedeviling Assault. It can kill most heroic monsters in one turn. It was open for debate for a couple days, despite barbarian powers that seem superior, it was not contested. So it remains on the best list. 

Lead the Attack:
Most enemies will die so quickly that the attack bonuses won't last more than a round or two. Several people posted they wanted to keep it because it is very good against Elites and Solo enemies.  

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

This list highlights 75 powers out of over 3000 heroic powers.

There are less than 10 contested powers.

I expect that players will use build guides to develop their characters. 

I will review powers for the list as long as the requests are in the specified format. 

Not everyone will agree with my opinions.


Powers in my list do not exist in a vacuum. 

There is a log of contested powers.

Three votes are needed to swap a specific power with another specific power along with ample reasoning.


 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Completed Votes:
Swapping Come and Get It from best with Prestidigitation from unlisted. 3 votes Raegoul, Bohrdumb, Xaspian 
Swapping Thicket of Blades from best with Entangle from unlisted. 3 votes Fitzco, Xaspian, and Flavatar.
Swapping Twin Strike from best with Healing Word from unlisted. 3 votes Raegoul, Xaspian, Zelink

Keeping  Adamantine Echo on best. 3 votes Uscias, Bohrdumb, Raegoul 

First example vote:
I suggest swapping Misdirected Mark with Staggering Note. 1 vote Baja,

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 


Apr 25, 2012 -- 4:07AM, bajatmerc wrote:


This list highlights 75 of the 4000 Heroic powers. YES
Over 75% of it was generated by the community so far. NO
All information is presented with a bias, and none of the information is to be considered definitive as there 
are just to many variables including battle maps, DMs, Players, Rule Interpretations, Errata Etc. YES

The opinions here will not 100% coinside with your own. YES 
It is just one of many views of the  non-linear Heroic Powers. NO
Whenever creating an OP character, it is always a good idea to check many guides. YES and NO

Contents:
Best List NO it is just a list of powers
Great List NO it is just a list of powers
Heavily Contested Powers YES but only within this thread
Information on the List YES it is information


This is Baja's list of the best powers for heroic tier.
 (25) max




Ardent - Mindlink Strike - 2 augments - close burst 1 ~2w and one 1w Please explain why this is optimal

Artificer - Punishing Eye - moving 48sq area adds mod damage to all pc attacks, denys concealment YES but Magic Weapon is more important




Battlemind - Lodestone Lure - 2 augments - melee 5, 1w, pull 4, knock prone, can't move away from youNO there are other equally good options

Cleric - Moment of Glory - knock an enemy away and down and sustain resist 5 for all party members NO it is situationally awesum

Druid - Grasping Tide - at-will, burst 1 in 10 vs fort, d6+mod, restrict enemy movement or prone NO there are other equally good options
Druid - Grasping Claws - because this NO there other equally good options

Fighter - Come and Get It - close burst 3, brings enemies to you for 1w damage YES
Fighter - Thicket of Blades - 3w damage close burst 1 following Come and Get It NO there are other good options
Fighter - Rain of Steel - spend one minor to deal 1w to any enemy starting near you during the encounter YES
Fighter - Bedeviling Assault - 2w+mod, 1 free mba against that target per round for the encounter NO there are better
Fighter - Rain of Blows - 2 potentially 3 attacks, can instant kill most Heroic monsters with modifier damageNO it is too conditional i.e. build specific

Paladin - Astral Thunder - Close burst 3, 2d8 and attack penalties, as an encounter NO there are other equally good ooptions
Paladin - Wrath of the Gods - Close burst 1 utility minor action, buffs damage by charisma mod for encounter YES for a Chaladin no for a Straladin




Ranger - Twin Strike - two attack at-will, ranged or melee YES
Ranger - Spitting Cobra Stance - 1w any enemy that moved toward you NO there are other good options






Rogue - Knockout - knock enemy unconscious YES

Sorcerer - Adamantine Echo - AoE w/ongoing damage, +2-7 ac bonus w/support NO there are other good options


Swordmage - Sword Burst - close burst at-will vs reflex YES






Wizard - Sleep - knock enemies unconscious NO it is too build specific
Wizard - Summon Succubus - debuff enemies, dominate enemies, fly YES
Wizard - Visions of Avarice - burst 5 in 10 trap your enemy in a zone sustain minor NO it is situationally awesum







Warlock - Decree of Khirad - almost dominate close blast 3, consolation damage NO there are other equally good options

Warlord - Lead the Attack - 3w + mod, party bonus to attack rolls on the target NO it is build specific and there are other good options
Warlord - Stand the Fallen - 3w+mod and allies healed  surge+mod  NO there are other equally good options
Warlord - Lamb to the Slaughter - Pull enemy 5, enable three allies a free charge attack NO too party specific

This thread was made for fun, keep it fun! NO it should be for optimisation






Are you trying to highlight powers for Half-Elves?

Are you trying to highlight powers that other classes should poach?

Are you trying to highlight powers that will optimize the make up of classes in parties? 

Why are At-Wills, Encounter and Daily powers all mixed in together?

Why are powers at differering levels all mixed in together? 

Are you trying to help people pick powers for their classes? 

What happened to all the other classes and their powers?

Bajat i cannot find any use for this list of powers. I have read nearly all that has been written in these threads (yes the other ones as well) and have been greatly amused. I would like to think that players come to the optimisation forum to be assisted and informed. The only thing i have learned so far is that there are a lot of ORCs. 

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Dear lord make it stop!

Baja, I have tried to help you every time you've done something like this, most notably in this thread over 8 months ago.

While, as noted in that thread repeatedly, this is a better place for a random list of things you like than char op is, there's still no need, desire, or use for this thread outside of your own use. Approximately zero people that responded to the old versions of this thread with serious/contributing-sounding posts were being serious, so your list is almost entirely made up of junk, and, as noted, not useable to accomplish anything at all, even if real consensus or even proper analysis of all 3837 heroic tier powers were possible (and it's not).

If you absolutely must continue to post this nonsense, I strongly encourage you to remove all mention of your name from the thread title and the contents of your post, and to remove all uses of the word collaborative.  It's very much not worth trying to actually achieve consensus regarding something wholly irrelevant, and almost everyone who contributes to your threads is intentionally trolling you and skewing your results. 

We cannot stop you from using this forum however you please (though the ORCs can), but I once again strongly encourage you to write your list on construction paper in crayon instead of on the internet. Far less people will make far less disparaging comments that way. 
THICKET OF BLADES!!!
I'm confused. Is Punishing Eye a Great power, or is it the Best? It's on both lists. Help! My Artificer needs clarification!

I would also include Healing Word somewhere on the lists. It's an amazing power - it heals people pretty well, and scales as you level, so it stays relevant. It's so good, I've never seen a cleric without it!

One last suggestion - You might want to have seperate sections for At-will, Encounter, Daily and Utility powers. It's pretty confusing jumbling them all together, and hard to compare the different types as they are designed to not compete for resources, and to have different power levels and uses.
tHIs fred help me maek the beS! character evar in my life thanks Babamerc!
I'm confused. Is Punishing Eye a Great power, or is it the Best? It's on both lists. Help! My Artificer needs clarification!

I would also include Healing Word somewhere on the lists. It's an amazing power - it heals people pretty well, and scales as you level, so it stays relevant. It's so good, I've never seen a cleric without it!

One last suggestion - You might want to have seperate sections for At-will, Encounter, Daily and Utility powers. It's pretty confusing jumbling them all together, and hard to compare the different types as they are designed to not compete for resources, and to have different power levels and uses.


Removed punishing eye from the great to eliminate redundant listing. 

Add Healing Word 1 vote, Xaspian
swapping Misdirected Mark with Staggering Note. 1 vote Baja, 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

I received the following PM from Baj this morning:
Please don't post negativity into the collaborative list of highlighted powers. Vote out powers you think don't belong.




There is no collaborative list of highlighted powers. That would be pointless and nonsensical. This is your own personal product that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything at all. 

At least half of the powers on your list do not belong on your list. The total number of powers on the list is entirely arbitrary. the multiple lists defeats the stated purpose of your list, even if we pretend for a moment that your list actually achieves that purpose, which it does not.

I know this thread is your baby, since you've posted it no less than four times in the last yearish, but it's just not a good or useful idea, certainly not worth sharing. And if it were, it would still bother people that you continue to use your name in your thread title. Stop that.

Furthermore, this isn't negativity; this is the only possibly constructive, helpful response to your continued maluse of these forums. Feel free to continue reporting every post someone makes telling you these things, but bear in mind how that's worked out for you in the past.

What do you think of:
Hand of Radiance
Overwhelming Strike
Spirit Infusion
Commander's Strike
Lead the Attack
Stand the Fallen

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 


What do you think of:
Hand of Radiance
Overwhelming Strike
Spirit Infusion
Commander's Strike
Lead the Attack
Stand the Fallen


They are powers from various classes.
Add Healing Word 1 vote, Xaspian
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Add Healing Word 1 vote, Xaspian
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja


Excellent collaboration.
I agree, the collaboration is awesome. I borrowed that 3 vote rule from the list of the best builds.
It frees me from arbitration in the first attempt. Now if people disagree with me, they can outvote me rather than wait till concensus is obtained.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

If you seriously viewed yourself as merely a curator of knowledge, you would start with a blank list and not vote on anything yourself.
I agree, the collaboration is awesome. I borrowed that 3 vote rule from the list of the best builds.
It frees me from arbitration in the first attempt. Now if people disagree with me, they can outvote me rather than wait till concensus is obtained.


Arbitration, disagreeing, voting and consensus are four completely different decision making processes. You need to rethink your methodology and practice.
Add Healing Word 1 vote, Xaspian
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja



Do you not agree with my suggestion for Healing Word? Why don't you vote for it yourself, help keep things going? If you disagree, then why?
It is certainly better than an empty slot isn't it. 

Add Healing Word to fill the empty slot from great. 2 votes 
Xaspian, Baja
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

It is certainly better than an empty slot isn't it. 

Add Healing Word to fill the empty slot from great. 2 votes 
Xaspian, Baja
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja



I don't think it should settle for the empty 'great' slot, it deserves to be on the 'best' list. SO:
Add Healing Word to the Best list: 1 vote (Xaspian)
Add Healing Word to the Great list: 1 vote (bajatmerc)
What power did you want to swap the unlisted healing word with from the best list?
The maximum of powers in the best list is 25.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

I don't know. It's impossible for me to balance the powers, as they are all for different classes, and have different usage type (A/E/D/U). There's no way to say which one is 'worst' and so doesn't belong on the 'Best' list.

That said, if any power belongs on such a list, Healing Word definitely does.
Yet another thread that does not further anything but your own ego.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I agree they are all for different classes. I also agree they all have different usages like daily, at-will, or encounter. 

Stand the Fallen is a standard action that deals damage and heals for mod+surge value. 

I like Stand the Fallen better than Healing Word. So if I were to compare those two I would choose Stand the Fallen. 

Healing Word is a minor action encounter that heals for surge and mod. I didn't want to vote on it because I think that is kind of weak for healing and utility myself. So that is a judgement call.  

Inspiring Fortitude seems like a better utility power to me than Healing Word in heroic tier.
Close burst 5
Effect: You use your second wind, and each target gains temporary hit points equal to 10 + your Constitution modifier.
You can use this power out of combat as well from what I have read. I could be wrong though. This thread talks about using powers out of combat. 
community.wizards.com/savemygame/go/thre...

Most dms would let you use Inspiring Fortitude early on in the day from my experience.

It isn't the same class, so it is a judgement call. The list is opinion based. And there are may variables. That is why it is important to pick a powers to compare your addition against wisely. So that you can find other people who can see the difference in the two powers. Then they can agree with you. 

The list will streamline itself with time. As powers are picked to swap, there will be less and less swapping. And we will be left with a list of powers that reduces the entire list of powers to some strong powers that stick around.

Rather than sayinig that a particular power should be on a list, it is more important which power you compare that power too.

I am personally surprised to see healing powers and utility powers on the list. I thought that was interesting that people suggested those powers. And I find it intriguing that you think so highly of Healing Word. I haven't before considered it. Maybe because it heals you could point out a power in the list that is inferior to another power in the list. If two powers do the same function then you could make healing a unique premise for removing the inferior. Many of the powers are dps daily powers.

I leave the list totally open though. People could vote in a way that the list is a series of the best combination of use frequency and action type.

We should include the reasoning. Maybe you want to say that Healing Word is the best utility/encounter/minor/healing power.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

I agree they are all for different classes. I also agree they all have different usages like daily, at-will, or encounter.


And yet you still refuse to accept that those differences make it useless to compare them to each other?

Context matters.  In this case, the context is the structure of D&D characters, where you aren't able to freely pick whatever powers you like, you're limited to a specific small set of options for each choice.  You're removing all of the context, and in doing so remove all of the meaning and usefulness of the comparisons.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You can vote and include the premise you voted  on was based on a specific context. 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

That doesn't make sense to me, though. I can't think there would be any situation when character building that I would have to choose between Healing Word and Stand The Fallen, so how can I say one is better? Even if one heals more or lets you attack, they use different actions (Standard vs. Minor), can be used with different frequency (Daily vs. 2/enc), are from different characters (Warlord vs. Cleric/Sentinel), and one of them has lots more feats to modify it and make it better. Heck, one of them even takes up a Daily Power slot, meaning you can't choose anything else, while the other is given to you for free!

You can't make ANY kind of valid comparison when there's no like for you to compare to like. As such, it feels that there's no possibility of arguing the case for (or against) any power on (or off)  this list, making the whole thing a bit arbitrary. 

EDIT: And by "a bit arbitrary" I mean "entirely arbitrary". 
That doesn't make the list itself any less irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what powers are on your list, when I'm rolling up my level 1 fighter and want to pick a daily power, it doesn't matter that Healing Word is awesome because I can't pick it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
What about Staggering Note vs Misdirected Mark? Do you agree with me?

I think Mindlink Strike is the weakest power on the Best list, I would agree to swap Healing Word with that one.  

We could get another person and try to organize some voting such that at least the best utility/minor/encounter/healing power was a reason for a power to be up there.

At that, we could also vote to change the reason Twin Strike is up there is because it is the best at-will dps.

 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

What about Staggering Note vs Misdirected Mark? Do you agree with me?

I think Mindlink Strike is the weakest power on the Best list, I would agree to swap Healing Word with that one.  


Surely if you just want a comparison between bard powers, you would go looking for a bard handbook on CharOp. I don't have enough experience building bards to judge, but if you want powers from all sources on your list, then you need a way to compare powers that can't be compared.



Maybe I'm interpreting this whole thread wrongly. It seems like you are trying to make a list of mechanically strong powers from different classes and levels, which is looking futile. Maybe when you wrote 'best heroic powers', you meant 'most fun', which is a whole different thing, and could possibly be a much more enjoyable thread.

Instead of arguments over how to weigh Healing Word with Stand the Fallen, or whatever, it would be full of people with stories about this one time they used misdirected mark to trick the goblin chieftain into hitting your warlock buddy, who had built up his Darkspiral Aura to massive levels and blew up in his face. My character used to love zipping through the battlelines with Dual Lightning Strike. I don't think anyone's going to argue it's a strong power, but picture the look on the Hill Giant Mage's face when I teleported past all his muscle-bound guards.

If that indeed is what you meant, then you should have been a bit clearer and started from scratch, with an empty list. Allow people to suggest things, and add their cool stories about how a particular power allowed them to do something awesome, or became a signature move for their character. That would be a more useful thread because it would be for fun, rather than making a list for seemingly no real reason at all.
making a list for seemingly no real reason at all.


Yep, you've pretty much nailed it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
What about Staggering Note vs Misdirected Mark? Do you agree with me?

I think Mindlink Strike is the weakest power on the Best list, I would agree to swap Healing Word with that one.  


Surely if you just want a comparison between bard powers, you would go looking for a bard handbook on CharOp. I don't have enough experience building bards to judge, but if you want powers from all sources on your list, then you need a way to compare powers that can't be compared.



Maybe I'm interpreting this whole thread wrongly. It seems like you are trying to make a list of mechanically strong powers from different classes and levels, which is looking futile. Maybe when you wrote 'best heroic powers', you meant 'most fun', which is a whole different thing, and could possibly be a much more enjoyable thread.

Instead of arguments over how to weigh Healing Word with Stand the Fallen, or whatever, it would be full of people with stories about this one time they used misdirected mark to trick the goblin chieftain into hitting your warlock buddy, who had built up his Darkspiral Aura to massive levels and blew up in his face. My character used to love zipping through the battlelines with Dual Lightning Strike. I don't think anyone's going to argue it's a strong power, but picture the look on the Hill Giant Mage's face when I teleported past all his muscle-bound guards.

If that indeed is what you meant, then you should have been a bit clearer and started from scratch, with an empty list. Allow people to suggest things, and add their cool stories about how a particular power allowed them to do something awesome, or became a signature move for their character. That would be a more useful thread because it would be for fun, rather than making a list for seemingly no real reason at all.



If best to you means most fun, then vote based on that. 
The list is just a fast way to view some powers that people on these forums like.  

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

I get it, it's a delightfully meta forum game!  The Purple Power Challenge!  Totally explains why it's in General and not Char Op.

We pick the worst possible powers, tart up the reasons why they should be on the list with ample, possibly-specious-yet-well-written reasoning, get 3 people to vote the terrible power in, and then wait and see if it "collaboratively" makes it to the list.

The only thing to decide is do we go with a point system for getting terrible powers in, or just declare the winner as the first person to get Thicket of Blades replaced?


I'll try first (although I feel bad because it feels like I'm dissing Entangle which isn't anywhere close to terrible):

lose Thicket of Blades, swap with Entangle (Druid 9)

Before we get into any reasoning, let's agree that the ToB entry only makes it onto the list because it is 2 powers, not 1.  If it relies on CAGI as a set up, then every other power on the list needs to be considered in light of a 2-power combo to play on an even field.  Comparing an outcome that is allowed 2 Standard Actions (or 2 rounds) to accomplish something its competition has to accomplish in 1 action is just plain cheating.

1.  Entangle is a Burst 2 (affects 25 squares), whereas ToB is barely a Burst 1 (affects only 9, and usually only 8 because only rarely is anything in your origin square).  This considers only a 2D effect, as obviously Entangle would crush the puny ToB area in a 3D battle.

2.  Entangle is usable at up to range 10, whereas ToB has no range at all.  You can safely Entangle a small army of monsters from a safe distance, whereas ToB requires you to put yourself into harm's way and possibly even die before you even get to roll damage.

3.  Entangle can hit enemies that are Hidden, Invisible, or behind Superior Cover.  It can hit enemies if the caster is Blinded, enemies the caster can't see due to Total Concealment, enemies the caster doesn't have Line of Effect to, or even enemies the caster isn't aware of yet.  Not only does Entangle not take a penalty for any of this, ToB wouldn't even be allowed to make an attack roll in the same situations.

4.  Entangle inflicts Immobilize, ToB merely inflicts Slow.  Furthermore, Druids, particularly Druids that use a lot of (save ends) effects, have wider and easier access to saving throw penalizers than Fighters, meaning Entangle's Immoblize will stick on the enemies much longer than ToB's paltry Slow.

5.  Given that ToB and Entangle are both L9 powers, they have roughly equal effectiveness against L9 monsters since neither power will kill a standard level 9 monster (not even a ToB crit + a CAGI crit will.)  However, since the Entangled monsters are as much as 12 squares away from you, you are far better protected from them.  

    If they don't die, at best all the targets can do are paltry ranged attacks, which are notoriously underpowered on non-Artillery standard monsters if they even have the range to get to you.  If they do die or get bloodied, you're well out of range from any kind of death bursts or other reactions.  

    ToB leaves you adjacent to all the angry-from-just-being-hit targets' reprisal attacks as well as probably flanked, in overlapping auras, and subject to cooperative monster abilities.  Since they are just Slowed, they can even Shift and use ranged attacks if they are Artillery.  Even worse, should you succeed in Bloodying or killing enough of the wrong monster you and others in your party might just take more damage than you dished out.

6.  Entangle attacks vs Reflex, making it vastly more likely to hit than the inferior ToB attack vs AC.  'nuff said.

7.  Entangle has multiple additional effects that last for the entire encounter!  Not only does the Druid pick up an 18-20 critical range because of it, but it effectively denies an entire 5x5 square area to enemies.  Even better, Entangle's effect occurs even if the Druid happens to miss.  ToB has no further effects, and is completely wasted on a miss.

9.  Entangle can be used by a disarmed Druid, with almost no reduction in efficacy.  If the ToB (note the "Weapon" keyword) fighter is disarmed, he hasn't a hope of using the power effectively.  Also, I know it's reason #8.  I wanted to get to 10 and was just checking to see if you're still paying attention.  =)

10.  You can pair up Entangle with a complementary Encounter power to make a more even comparison to the totally biased TOB/CAGI combo.  Following up Entangle (1d6+WIS) with a power like Call the Crows (2d8+WIS+CON/DEX) or Swarm of Scarabs (2d6+WIS+CON/DEX), will generate roughly equivalent damage to the ToB (3w+STR)/ CAGI (1w) combo, barring really high rolls with the most powerful of 2-Handed weapons.  Even then, once you get into superior implements, feat support, and magic item choices, it might just equal out completely.


 


There ya go, plenty of evidence.  Vote now!

INSIDE SCOOP, GAMERS: In the new version of D&D, it will no longer be "Edition Wars." It will be "Edition Lair Assault." - dungeonbastard

It is certainly a way you can vote. Cool

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

If best to you means most fun, then vote based on that. 
The list is just a fast way to view some powers that people on these forums like.  


That's not how collaboration works. You can't work together to build a list without using some sort of shared criteria. People 'like' powers for different reasons, in a way that's almost impossible to categorise or quantify. Am I meant to argue that my enjoyment from dashing around the battlefield with Dual Lightning Strike is more important than the fact that Dimensional Vortex is a much better choice? 

And WHY do you want to view some powers that people on these forums like, and WHY do you think other people might like to read such a list? Is it so that you can use them? Is it to give you some insight into the campaigns of other players? Do you just really like lists?

EDIT: Add another vote for replacing Thicket of Blades with Entangle. I'll read the reasoning on it later. 
I third replacing Thicket of Blades with Entangle.  Cause reasons.
And WHY do you want to view some powers that people on these forums like, and WHY do you think other people might like to read such a list? Is it so that you can use them? Is it to give you some insight into the campaigns of other players? Do you just really like lists?


Bajatmerc, I'm just quoting this to emphasize the following point:

You get this reaction from every single person who tries to participate, every time you try.  Does it just not occur to you that you might be taking the wrong approach?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Add Healing Word to fill the empty slot from great. 2 votes Xaspian, Baja
swapping Misdirected Mark from great with Staggering Note unlisted. 1 vote Baja
swapping Mindlink Strike from best with Flame Spiral from great. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Forward-Thinking Cut from great with Hellsworn Blessing unlisted. 1 vote Baja
Swapping Thicket of Blades from best with Entangle from unlisted. 3 votes Fitzco, Xaspian, and Flavatar.

Go ahead Flavatar and state a short discription to use in the list and I will process the swap for you three.

Xaspian, I like to see what powers people think are best. I also really like lists.

Mand12, vote or don't vote.

Edit: I tried to swap it out for you guys, not sure about the wording
I would not have agreed though. 3w+mod is like 25 average damage per target. The action point combo of C&GI with Rain of Steel minor with it is also nice. Boosts the average dps for the turn to 35 per target before you account for accuracy. And the combo is on a defender class.
Strikers out do it easily. A ranger using biting volley, twinstrike, and a quick weapon can easily out dps it though.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

/popcorn.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
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