"Splinterfright Fertilizer"

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Last post
Updated 1-31-13

Creatures (29)


Spells (12)
[deck]
4 Mulch
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Duress
[/deck]
Lands (19)
[deck]
2 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Evolving Wilds
[/deck]
Sideboard (15)
[deck]
4 Naturalize
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Elixir of Immortality
3 Tragic Slip
1 Jarad's Orders
[/deck]


Lets start by paring down your creature count, as you have a lot of lackluster guys in here:
-4 Arbor Elf: you have 11 forests. If you were running Overgrown tombs, maybe, but otherwise, nope. You aren't really ramping into anything anyway.

-4 Duty-Bound dead: Exalted and Regenerate are really not doing anything here.

-1 Lumberknot: He takes forver to become anything respectable.

-2 Hunted Ghoul: Entirely unamazing.

Now, for spells.

-2 Ghoulcaller's Chant: You are going to be milling, a lot. This does nothing from your graveyard. We will be replacing it shortly.

-3 Jarad's Orders: a 4 mana sorcery to dig up two guys is too expensive. If you really want, run 1.

-2 Bone splinters: Removal is good and all, but you are better off finding it in creature form, which suites the nature of this deck better.

Lets start by addressing the elephant in the room: Rest in Peace. This card obviously just flat hoses you, but I wouldn't run main-deck hate for it because it is largely a sideboard card in standard. Your best bet is to sideboard in some sort of discard effects, like Duress, and mulligan into it games two and three. Fortunately for you, Dreg Mangler, Ghoultree and Jarad can exist without a yard, but this at least helps solve that problem.

As far as spells go, you obviously want as few as possible. The playsets of Mulch and Salvage are fine, but I would top it off with 2 of Unburial Rites. The benefit of Mulch and Salvage is that you can include a small number of plains and find them with either of those cards pretty easy, and unburial rites doesn't care if you mill it. This will let you mill a bit more aggressively, since you know you will be able to access your creatures faster.

For your creatures, you want to make sure they are all pretty high value. Playing small dudes as bone splinters fodder is a bad idea, when those small dudes could be Typhoid Rats, Deadly Recluse or Vampire Nighthawk, completing the package in one card instead of two. I would even like Slum Reaper here, since it gets rid of hexproof jerks. Ultimately, your creatures are your spells here, so make certain that they all do something valuable when you play them. With a decent package of deathtouch or tramply dudes,Mwonvuil Beast Tracker becomes a valuable tutor, letting you find "removal" or at very least a splinterfright. one or two would be appropriate, I think.


 
Thank you for the detailed input!

I'm hesitant to remove the 4x [C]Arbor Elf[/C] because I think it will slow me down significantly on the first three turns. Also, if I keep [C]Bone Splinters[/C] and add [C]Tragic Slip[/C] (see below), I'll need one as fodder. I probably just need to playtest this before making a decision.

I like the idea of [C]Unburial Rites[/C], but I'm not sure it's worthwhile to replace [C]Ghoulcaller's Chant [/C] with a much more expensive spell that requires me to replace lands with plains, even considering the Flashback opportunity. Why not just make it 4x Chant instead? If the deck is working at all properly, my creatures will already be less expensive to cast, even adding in the black mana from Chant,  than the combined cost of Rites. With 4x, even with self-milling I still have a good chance of pulling one.

The problem I see with [C]Duress[/C] as a counter to RIP is that I won't know ahead of time if my opponent has drawn it, and with Duress being a sorcery, it's not like I can interrupt an already-cast RIP. I think there must be a more reliable counter to RIP, but I need to look around a little more...

I think [C]Typoid Rats[/C] and [C]Vampire Nighthawk[/C] are excellent suggestions as replacements for [C]Bone Splinters[/C], and I'll try adding them in. For one, they rebalance the deck more towards black, which was one of my concerns. Rats are also a good replacement for my Ghoul and Skeleton as they're a good first-turn option, and Nighthawk takes care of flying defense.

However, I'm hesitant to remove Splinters altogether because it guarantees me the -13/-13 of Slip, and with them both being so inexpensive, I can cast them in succession and suddenly wipe out my opponent's creatures. (This is particularly relevant because I'm still worried about indestructibles (e.g. [C]Predator Ooze[/C], Angels, etc.) and thinking I should add 4x [C]Tragic Slip[/C].) On the other hand, perhaps I should add 4x [C]Rancor[/C], remove the Splinters and Slips, and rely on trample to out-smash my opponent rather than really worrying about their creatures at all. This is also fewer total cards, and with 3x cheap 10/10 [C]Ghoultree[/C], it's probably the better option. I've updated the deck to reflect this for now.

I'll update the deck now to reflect your advice. Thank you again!

EDIT: Decided to take your advice and remove [C]Jarad's Orders[/C], as well as [C]Tree of Redemption[/C] and [C]Korozda Guildmage[/C] altogether. Sure, it's a nice combo, but it's expensive, won't be played often, and doesn't mesh all that well with the rest of the deck. And the Intimidate ability on the Guildmage is not very useful, especially considering its high cost, since I've added [C]Rancor[/C] and will be relying more heavily on Trample.
If your deck functions better with acceleration, go ahead and leave the elves in, that's fine. I only hesitate with them because you have 2 things that cost 3 mana, one of which you definately don't want to play on turn 2 (splinterfright). 

The reason I prefer Unburial over ghoulcaller's chant is that it is always available. None of your mill cards let you put instants/sorceries into your hand, so the likelyhood that you mill them is pretty high, and once a chant is in the yard you aren't doing anything with it. Unburial rites, while more expensive, is always available and plops your critter right into play. It's not so much about mana cost as about optimizing the cards you are using. Rites is useful in every zone you are interacting with, making it a better choice. Also, because you have so many ways to get land, producing white will not be hard. 2-3 plains (or selesnya guildgates) will ensure that you can produce the single white mana you need to play them. You aren't playing many double-color spells either, so having white mana wont screw up your curve (much).  As a bonus, you will get random turn 4 Ghoultrees just from mulching, which is a pretty good deal.

I don't like Bone Splinters simply because it does nothing by itself. If you need to run removal, run something like murder or ultimate price. I know you like it because it puts guys in your yard, but actively sacrificing a creature for an effect you could have without that sacrifice ruins your board position. Even though you have lots of creatures, its just not worth it, and you don't need super cheap removal since you should have plenty of mana available when you need it. Finally, Splinters on an empty board is a downright miserable topdeck, because you can't cast it.

Here's why I suggest duress: you can't afford to have RiP resolve. If someone sides in RiP to combat a graveyard-based deck, they will try to get it in their opening hand, because it shuts you down until you find an answer. You do have other options: Acidic Slime which is the only creature in green or black that lets you destroy enchantments, or something like Naturalize. Both of these are reactive answers, and they don't stop RiP from nuking your yard when it ETB. I prefer Duress because it stops it cold, its cheap to cast, and it hits plenty of other threats (removal, Spinx's Revelation, etc). Duressing early game 2 should help you stuff the first one, and if they don't have it then you get to nab something else. Honestly, this is why these kinds of decks aren't as popular now, because they get shut down so hard by one enchantment. Fortunately, nobody should be running a full 4 RiPs unless reanimator becomes a big deal, so grabbing even a single one can usually keep you safe. Otherwise, you just hardcast your ghoultrees and Dreg Manglers and go to town on them.
Other good cards to deal with RIP include Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm. The might of Abrupt Decay speaks for itself, and the Charm is versatile enough to sweep away 1/1 tokens and prevent boardsweep from Bonfire of the Damned, Supreme Verdict, etc. 
"Dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave... Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed." - Mao Zedong
Other good cards to deal with RIP include Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm. The might of Abrupt Decay speaks for itself, and the Charm is versatile enough to sweep away 1/1 tokens and prevent boardsweep from Bonfire of the Damned, Supreme Verdict, etc. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Abrupt Decay. It also removes Rest in Peace, even though it doesn't help you recover what's already been exiled from the graveyard.
hi!

im running a list which plays with the graveyard, (its black/green golgari) :D

well.. actually i'll only suggest cards that are worth trying...

Ulvenwald Tracker
Deathrite Shaman
Lotleth Troll
Disciple of Bolas

Tracker's Instinct
Gnaw to the Bone

Knight of Infamy
Wolfir Silverheart

My input to this type is deck that its speed is midrange... you have actually 11 cards that are uncastable (Boneyard Wurm, Splinterfright,Ghoultree) but worth it after having LOTS of creatures in your graveyard. I only suggest to increase your creature count.

Eventhough there are lots of graveyard hate cards ruuning around the standard format, there are many ways to deal or play around them. So keep on trying other cards. :D

-I could remove [C]Arbor Elves[/C], but then the only 1-mana creature in the deck is the [C]Typhoid Rats[/C], which isn't a very reliable first turn. Thoughts?


-I was thinking about what VRdragoon said about [C]Unburial Rites[/C], and after a bit of poking around, I found [C]Ray of Revelation[/C]. It's probably not powerful enough to replace Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm, but another card to consider in that it would be decent if self-milled into the graveyard. Anyone have experience with it? I was also considering replacing 2 Arbor Elves with 2 [C]Avacyn's Pilgrim[/C] to ensure that I'm able to cast Rites from the graveyard, to keep the heavy emphasis on creatures, and to avoid putting a lot of plains in the deck. This would add an interesting twist of white to the deck.


-On everyone's suggestion, I was thinking of adding 2 [C]Golgari Charm[/C] and 2 [C]Abrupt Decay[/C], but then I'm not sure what to remove to keep it at 60. Maybe [C]Rancor[/C]? But that weakens the [C]Ghoultree[/C] so much; 10/10 is great, but 10/10 trample is GG. And I want to keep a high proportion of creatures for obvious reasons, so I'd like to avoid replacing any of those (although in this case, it may be necessary).


-VRdragoon's point about [C]Duress[/C] is well-taken, and it's probably worthwhile to have. But perhaps it belongs in the sideboard to be used against white decks? I'm not convinced it's useful enough in this deck to merit replacing anything fulltime.


-kagayami, Thank you for the suggestions. [C]Ulvenwald Tracker[/C], [C]Lotleth Troll[/C], [C]Gnaw to the Bone[/C], and [C]Tracker's Instincts[/C] are all cards I've considered and am still considering, as well as some of the others you mentioned. I haven't used Tracker because I don't know what I'd replace with it; it's strong, but with the huge, trampling creatures I'm aiming to create, I don't think it would be necessary. While Gnaw is probably powerful lategame, I worry that it would only be useful against decks I'm likely to beat anyway, and not as useful against true threats (e.g. Rest in Peace). Tracker's Instincts and Lotleth are two cards I probably just have to playtest before I can decide for sure, but it's kind of a catch-22 for me because I don't want to shell out the money for Lotleths unless I already know they're necessary. Tracker's Instincts I haven't used because I'd essentially have to replace a creature with it, and I feel that's the wrong direction for this deck because [C]Mulch[/C] and [C]Grisly Salvage[/C] provide enough mill already.


how is the deck milling to you..? I mean how many creature cards are in your graveyard by the 3rd,4th or 5th of your turns..?
Terminus, right now i think we have no answer except for Thragtusk..
I run a deck extremely similar to this and have had great success with it (at my local FNM anyway) hpwever I think this deck has a bit more efficiency to it, but I would still recommend this based off the latest list:

-1 Grim Backwoods : this one is a bit personal but this card never works the way I want it too. I find myself sweating everytime I pull this thing and it just sits there as a colroless mana that i would rather have be any color under the sun than colorless. This card IS however very strong in a control setting as it can grant stability or help you pick up some momentum if you've been getting bad draws. Really just a SB card at best.

-1 Ghoultree : yes he's awesome but In my build I run a lower amount of creatures and only two of him, and still have never had a problem pulling him when I need him and playing him for cheap.

-2 Arbor Elf : In this type of deck he's just not great. Run Deathrite he will save your bacon in more ways than you can possibly imagine and is just a great tool, and as long as you follow him up with a turn two Grisly salvage and get at least 1 land you still get your ramp

-1 Slpinterfright -1 Boneyard Wurm : This probably seems crazy but all my testing has proved otherwise, by running just 1 less of each of these guys they become harder to accidently mill with your Grisly Salvage or Mulch , you spend less time with cards in your hand going damn, need something in the yard still (on the rare occasion you whiff with a Grisly Salvage or a Mulch ) but more importantly it gives you some room to either increase the count of other creatures or add a few new one Slum Reaper extra Vampire Nighthawk or what have you. The biggest advantages of this are extra fodder for your yard that arent him really.

-2 ghoulcaller's chant : get to that in a sec.

+2 unburial rites : if your really interested in being able to pull something from the yard this is the way to go. VRdragon made every point possible about how it functions better than ghoulcaller's chant and every point of his stick's. 

+2 Deathrite Shaman : Really just run this guy. I can think of very few reasons not to run him and all of them can be solved (typically) by the next turn. If you are truely and greatly concerned about the immidate availability of a mana (especially the white concerning Unburial Rites ) run Avacyn's Pilgrim  instead. But even if he dosent perform as the mana generator you want him to be, for just a measly B he turns all of your Grisly Salvage 's and and Mulch 's into an instant 2 in their face which they almost never expect.

+1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord , Vampire Nighthawk , and Deathrite Shaman or Avacyn's Pilgrim whchever you choose: This suggestion only matters if you take my advice on subtracting Ghoultree along with Splinterfright and Boneyard Wurm otherwise ignore it. However all of these cards do spectacular things when you play them and it's nicer to pull them a little more often and it also makes it less detrimental if one of them dies instead of having to worry about using something to pull them back.

As for your sideboard...I don't see a list here so i'm not exactly sure what your run in it if you do at all....but I would suggest something to this effect:



for those last three slots you can put pretty much whatever you think is good for your local meta but this SB works great against sweepers, control, and has a good amount of hate against Rest in Peace . I personally like to run Pithing Needle but that's because a lot of people run super friends or the like in my area.

Sorry for the block of text, really like the list though! Hope any of this helps you out
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I should have made it clearer that Duress was definately a sideboard card. My apologies, as that distinction would have made my argument much less confusing.

I tend to see Golgari Charm as a sideboard card as well. 
"Dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave... Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed." - Mao Zedong
(1) So, to summarize Anthos' main-deck suggestions:

-1 grim backwoods, ghoultree, splinterfright, boneyard wurm
+1 jarad golgari lich lord, nighthawk vampire, avacyn's pilgrim/deathrite shaman


-2 ghoulcaller's chant, arbor elf
+2 burial rites, deathrite shaman


[C]Grim Backwoods[/C]: I agree this is a sideboard card at best, and I think even saying that much is giving it undue credit; its ability is just too expensive to be worthwhile and seems to serve little purpose other than tripping you up when you're trying to [C]Mulch[/C] a land for colored mana. I'll remove it. Thanks for pointing that out.


-1 [C]Ghoultree[/C], [C]Splinterfright[/C], [C]Boneyard Wurm[/C] vs. +1 [C]Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord[/C], [C]Vampire Nighthawk[/C], [C]Deathrite Shaman[/C] or [C]Avacyn's Pilgrim[/C]: I feel that this deck is built around these 11 cards, so I'm very hesitant to cut it down to 8. In particular, since I'm running 4 [C]Rancor[/C], I think it will be worthwhile to keep the Ghoultrees because without trample, and without the intimidate from the [C]Korozda Guildmage[/C]s I decided to remove, they're significantly weaker. Plain 10/10 just ain't what it used to be! As for the Splinterfright and Boneyard Wurm, I'd have to playtest before making a decision. Will update this afterwards. It would at least be nice to have the extra flying defense from Nighthawk, so I've replaced 1 Wurm with that. I'll respond to Shaman/Pilgrim below.


[C]Ghoulcaller's Chant[/C] vs. [C]Burial Rites[/C]: I'm going to try replacing Chant wtih Rites, adding a couple of Plains, and using Pilgrim to ensure I can actually cast it. I'm not convinced this is the best approach; I think it spreads the deck too thin and distracts from its core tactic, and that the Pilgrim will be useless about 90% of the time. But willing to give it a shot.


[C]Arbor Elf[/C] vs. [C]Deathrite Shaman[/C] or [C]Avacyn's Pilgrim[/C]: Updated to replace Elf with Pilgrim (see above).


(2) VRdragoon, no worries, I should have realized you intended [C]Duress[/C] for the sideboard--and I agree, it does belong there. I just updated with a sideboard.


(3) I was considering 4 [C]Tracker's Instinct[/C], because even though it reduces my creature:spell ratio, I believe the math works out such that it will result in more creatures in my hand, graveyard, and battlefield overall. If I have 30 creatures in a 60-card deck, that's 50%, which means that if I draw 4 cards, chances are that there are 2 creatures in there. So, I pick one to go to my hand, and one goes to the graveyard, giving me some control over my creature progression as well as +1/+1 to all my fertilizer-feeders. Does anyone have experience playing a similar deck and running 4 Mulch, 4 Grisly Salvage, and 4 Instincts? Is it too much self-mill?

Still torn on [C]Deathrite Shaman[/C]. It's a versatile card, but is it better enough than Elf or Pilgrim in this deck to be worth $60 for a playset? I dunno.

I can't overstate how bonkers Deathrite shaman is, and I don't even use him for his mana ability. You have enough self-mill that you should be able to use him in place of the pilgrim for generating white mana, and it tightens up your mana requirements.

Given 8 spells that can find you lands, I don't think you need more than 3 white sources in your deck to cast 2 unburial rites. I don't even think pilgrim is neccessary, to be honest. 
I can't overstate how bonkers Deathrite shaman is, and I don't even use him for his mana ability. You have enough self-mill that you should be able to use him in place of the pilgrim for generating white mana, and it tightens up your mana requirements.

Given 8 spells that can find you lands, I don't think you need more than 3 white sources in your deck to cast 2 unburial rites. I don't even think pilgrim is neccessary, to be honest. 



I guess with 2 Deathrite and 2 Plains, it's probably enough to have a good chance at casting Rites. Updated to reflect this. Thanks for your input! And off to the card sellers for me to pick up the Deathrites... Maybe I should just suck it up and buy a Ravnica booster box.
I run a deck similar to this.. I only use 4 salvages, 3 mulch and a singleton of gnaw to the bone. Technically, I use the gnaw to the bone because I take a couple of hits before boneyard wurm, splinterfright or jarad becomes too big.

Im not into Unburial Rites, if you're going to splash white for the rites, you must have jucier targets like Griselbrand, Craterhoof Behemoth or Angel of Serenity... This deck will become frites...

I think Rancor is not suited here, I'm a fan of rancor giving your creature's pump and trample, its one of the best green cards ever printed, but if im to use rancor, i'll combine him with other 1 drop creatures like Gravecrawler, Dryad Militant, or Rakdos Cackler... With jarad around the field, he can toss any of your graveyard creatures boneyard wurm, splinterfright and ghoultree for the win. Just my opinion...
I run a deck similar to this.. I only use 4 salvages, 3 mulch and a singleton of gnaw to the bone. Technically, I use the gnaw to the bone because I take a couple of hits before boneyard wurm, splinterfright or jarad becomes too big.

Im not into Unburial Rites, if you're going to splash white for the rites, you must have jucier targets like Griselbrand, Craterhoof Behemoth or Angel of Serenity... This deck will become frites...

I think Rancor is not suited here, I'm a fan of rancor giving your creature's pump and trample, its one of the best green cards ever printed, but if im to use rancor, i'll combine him with other 1 drop creatures like Gravecrawler, Dryad Militant, or Rakdos Cackler... With jarad around the field, he can toss any of your graveyard creatures boneyard wurm, splinterfright and ghoultree for the win. Just my opinion...



Thanks for the input. I was resistant about [C]Unburial Rites[/C] and am still unsure of keeping it in. I'll probably end up removing it and replacinng with [C]Ghoulcaller's Chant[/C] again, but I wanted to try it out first.

As for [C]Rancor[/C], I was viewing someone else's Deadeye deck on here last night (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...) and thinking of how it would probably annihilate me. Maybe replacing my [C]Typhoid Rats[/C] with [C]Dryad Militant[/C] and keeping Rancor would better round out my deck against this type of threat?

I am also not convinced that removing [C]Arbor Elf[/C] was the right approach. I think it may be better to get 4 [C]Woodland Cemetery[/C] and 4 [C]Overgrown Tomb[/C] and return some Elves. Should have the cards I'm waiting for soon so that I can begin to playtest some of this.
have you playtested your build again...? what is your current list now..?

im  not into ghoulcaller's chant.. technically it sounds good returning your 1-to-cast ghoultree into your hand or other creatures but aside from that it lowers your wurm,fright and jarad because they need bodies in the graveyard... also the chant doesn't do anything in the grave aside from being a fodder for deathrite shaman...

The deadeye navigator will surely annihilate anyone if the combo goes off... typically you will play around that combo, you still doesn't have your sideboard...

I like the idea of typhoid rats, they will hold the ground for you to set your creatures up for you not to take that much damage... Arbor elf is good but we can't ramp a ghoultree even splinterfright... >_<
have you playtested your build again...? what is your current list now..?

im  not into ghoulcaller's chant.. technically it sounds good returning your 1-to-cast ghoultree into your hand or other creatures but aside from that it lowers your wurm,fright and jarad because they need bodies in the graveyard... also the chant doesn't do anything in the grave aside from being a fodder for deathrite shaman...

The deadeye navigator will surely annihilate anyone if the combo goes off... typically you will play around that combo, you still doesn't have your sideboard...

I like the idea of typhoid rats, they will hold the ground for you to set your creatures up for you not to take that much damage... Arbor elf is good but we can't ramp a ghoultree even splinterfright... >_<



I've updated the list for you and added quite a bit of explanation to the original post. Let me know how it works out!
Dawntrader can't fetch cavern: its not a basic land. And unburial rites can't reanimate planeswalkers like Bolas: they aren't creatures. Looks like a fun idea though.
"Dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave... Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed." - Mao Zedong
Dawntrader can't fetch cavern: its not a basic land. And unburial rites can't reanimate planeswalkers like Bolas: they aren't creatures. Looks like a fun idea though.



Thank you for noticing those. I updated with corrections.
i think were going to a B/G Golgari reanimator... Maybe add some discard outlet like Lotleth Troll? It will be much faster if we go with Unburial Rites rather than with ramp or hard cast...

have you playtested your list with other players or other decks? i mean playing with them not just solitare, what are the results?
i think were going to a B/G Golgari reanimator... Maybe add some discard outlet like Lotleth Troll? It will be much faster if we go with Unburial Rites rather than with ramp or hard cast...

have you playtested your list with other players or other decks? i mean playing with them not just solitare, what are the results?



I strongly considered Lotleth Troll, but decided against it here for several reasons.

1. It's less reliable to count on a 4-of (Rites) to reanimate whatever you would be discarding than it is to add a little ramp.
2. Mulch and Grisly are already enough to fill your graveyard.
3. There are very few creatures in this deck that are actually meant to be discarded at any point (really only 3, since the Ghoultrees you almost always want to cast from your hand). And for those, it's enough to rely on Mulch, Grisly, and Orders to get them into your graveyard.

As for the ramp as opposed to other 1-mana creatures, the difference between Typhoid Rats and Arbor Elf early on is not that great, and after two or three turns, you should have other, larger creatures that can fulfill Rats' purpose. In other words, this is a creature deck, so if you're relying on Deathtouch to kill things past the first or second turn, you're probably doing something wrong. So, I think the ramp is a better angle.

I haven't been able to make FNM yet for more competitive playtesting, but am planning to go on 2/1.
what do you do when you draw your bombs? Just durdle until you have the mana to hardcast them?

Reanimator wants a discard outlet so it can get fatties into the yard from anywhere, not just the deck.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
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but where DID the other fork come from?
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Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
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97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
Right. Lotleth Troll or Liliana of the Veil.
"Dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave... Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed." - Mao Zedong
what do you do when you draw your bombs? Just durdle until you have the mana to hardcast them?

Reanimator wants a discard outlet so it can get fatties into the yard from anywhere, not just the deck.



Well, first of all, this isn't strict reanimator. It's reanimator-ramp-fertilizer. Reanimation is only one of the mechanisms in this deck, and not the one I consider central.

How I handle it is situational.

-If I'm in a position where I'm forced to discard, e.g. it's the second turn and I've just mulched 3-4 lands, I'll discard it.

-If it's in my initial hand and I have enough to play that I don't need to discard, but I'm not in a tight spot, then sometimes it's worthwhile to keep that otherwise-2/2 Boneyard Wurm in my hand and force the discard so I can have a Griselbrand out next turn instead.

-If I draw a bomb and there's absolutely no way I can force a discard, then I rely on the ramp to get it out relatively quickly. With 4 Elves, 2 Shamans (and lots of land discard from 4 Grisly Salvage for their first ability), and 2 Elks, I have enough ramp that it's rarely more than 5 turns before I can drop them, which is pretty good for a last resort for a mechanism that's already secondary in this deck.

Also worth noting that there are only 3 real bombs (excluding the Ghoultrees which aren't meant to be Rited), or 1/20 cards, so reconstructing the deck to account for something that happens so infrequently, and for which there's already a backup mechanism, would probably do more harm than good. Even if I included Liliana, what are the chances I draw her as well as a bomb within the first three turns or so (before I ramp up)? I also feel that Liliana is directed primarily against creature decks, which are not the primary threat.
Only reason I'm posting is to say this deck should have been called "Splinterfrightilizer"

You may continue.

(at)MrEnglish22

what do you do when you draw your bombs? Just durdle until you have the mana to hardcast them?

Reanimator wants a discard outlet so it can get fatties into the yard from anywhere, not just the deck.



Well, first of all, this isn't strict reanimator. It's reanimator-ramp-fertilizer. Reanimation is only one of the mechanisms in this deck, and not the one I consider central.

How I handle it is situational.

-If I'm in a position where I'm forced to discard, e.g. it's the second turn and I've just mulched 3-4 lands, I'll discard it.

-If it's in my initial hand and I have enough to play that I don't need to discard, but I'm not in a tight spot, then sometimes it's worthwhile to keep that otherwise-2/2 Boneyard Wurm in my hand and force the discard so I can have a Griselbrand out next turn instead.

-If I draw a bomb and there's absolutely no way I can force a discard, then I rely on the ramp to get it out relatively quickly. With 4 Elves, 2 Shamans (and lots of land discard from 4 Grisly Salvage for their first ability), and 2 Elks, I have enough ramp that it's rarely more than 5 turns before I can drop them, which is pretty good for a last resort for a mechanism that's already secondary in this deck.

Also worth noting that there are only 3 real bombs (excluding the Ghoultrees which aren't meant to be Rited), or 1/20 cards, so reconstructing the deck to account for something that happens so infrequently, and for which there's already a backup mechanism, would probably do more harm than good. Even if I included Liliana, what are the chances I draw her as well as a bomb within the first three turns or so (before I ramp up)? I also feel that Liliana is directed primarily against creature decks, which are not the primary threat.



If you're not building Reanimator, then you should just take put the package all together to fit more things that work for the decks primary focus.

I'd go:
-4 Rites
-1 Elderscale
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Griselbrand
-2 Orders
-2 Plains
-4 Arbor Elf
-1 Mulch

+1 Shaman
+2 Elk(rally useful in a Splinterfright deck)
+4 Land(preferably Overgrown Tomb, but anything that makes green or black[/c]
+3 Removal of your choice(try and keep it 3 cmc or lower)
+2 Nighthawk
+1 Jarad

I've goldfished your deck ALOT, and it always felt like it was trying to do 2 different things. Almost always a bad idea.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
If you're not building Reanimator, then you should just take put the package all together to fit more things that work for the decks primary focus.

I'd go:
-4 Rites
-1 Elderscale
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Griselbrand
-2 Orders
-2 Plains
-4 Arbor Elf
-1 Mulch

+1 Shaman
+2 Elk(rally useful in a Splinterfright deck)
+4 Land(preferably Overgrown Tomb, but anything that makes green or black[/c]
+3 Removal of your choice(try and keep it 3 cmc or lower)
+2 Nighthawk
+1 Jarad

I've goldfished your deck ALOT, and it always felt like it was trying to do 2 different things. Almost always a bad idea.



Have you goldfished your edits? Really toothless. It took me about 10 tries to get a creature doing more than 3 damage by turn 5. With my deck, I often have Griselbrand, Craterhoof, or Elderscale by then. Maybe you weren't playing it quite right? As I mentioned in the original post, it takes some practice.
If you're not building Reanimator, then you should just take put the package all together to fit more things that work for the decks primary focus.

I'd go:
-4 Rites
-1 Elderscale
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Griselbrand
-2 Orders
-2 Plains
-4 Arbor Elf
-1 Mulch

+1 Shaman
+2 Elk(rally useful in a Splinterfright deck)
+4 Land(preferably Overgrown Tomb, but anything that makes green or black[/c]
+3 Removal of your choice(try and keep it 3 cmc or lower)
+2 Nighthawk
+1 Jarad

I've goldfished your deck ALOT, and it always felt like it was trying to do 2 different things. Almost always a bad idea.



Have you goldfished your edits? Really toothless. It took me about 10 tries to get a creature doing more than 3 damage by turn 5. With my deck, I often have Griselbrand, Craterhoof, or Elderscale by then. Maybe you weren't playing it quite right? As I mentioned in the original post, it takes some practice.


I have goldfished it. Maybe I'm getting lucky on Mulches? I usually have aout 5-7 creatures in yard by 5. I wasn't trying to make a super awesome deck first go, anyways. Just off the top of my head. I just think that you have the capability to have either a really good "Frightilizer"(there ya go, Jman) or a really good Junk Reanimator list. I just found, through fishin', that it was doing less as both.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.

if im to play with the list, i would play as much mulch and grisly salvage to make a huge creature. if the 1st plan doesn't make it, the unburial rites together with the  big guns should dominate the mid to late game. the ramp is just support, correct me if im wrong..


i haven't played around the unburial rites so i cant say how it can work with the current list... maybe we need results for the consisitency of the plan...

I just played 7 goldfish games through turn 6 to see what I could get into play. Sure, it's not the perfect statistical sample or representation of how a game would actually go, but it's a good general idea of where you should be at this point in the game. Here's what I had in play after each one:

G1: 5 Lands, Nighthawk, 5/5 Splinterfright, Ghoultree, Deathrite, several lands in hand (and on turn 8, I would've drawn Jarad)
G2:  4 Lands, 5/5 Wurm, 5/5 Wurm, Ghoultree, Elf, Nighthawk, Shaman, Elk (T7 5/5 Splinterfright, T8 another 5/5 Splinterfright)
G3: Should have used a mulligan, but wanted to play it out. Total loss.
G4: 5 Lands, Ghoultree, Elk, Elf, Elf
G5: 5 Lands, 3/3 Wurm, Elf, Elf, Elk, Nighthawk (T8 Elderscale)
G6: 5 Lands, Deathrite, Deathrite, 2/2 Splinterfright, 2/2 Splinterfright, Nighthawk, Elf, 2/2 Wurm
G7: 5 Lands, 9/9 Wurm, 9/9 Splinterfright, Ghoultree, Elf, Mangler

Kagayami has it right, the ramp is just support, as well as more fodder for the graveyard. I think I only drew Rites in one of the goldfish games listed above.
I can see that maybe the rites can be removed or maybe replaced... 5/5 and above creatures can already win you games. it was only used once... which is kind of situational... maybe we need more games..?
I can see that maybe the rites can be removed or maybe replaced... 5/5 and above creatures can already win you games. it was only used once... which is kind of situational... maybe we need more games..?

Seems I probably was't paying attention to when I used Rites in the first set of games. Here's what happened when I goldfished 5 more and watched my Rites use:

G8: Ghoultree, Elf, Mangler, Mangler, and on T8 a Craterhoof (via Rites)
G9: Griselbrand (via Rites), 9/9 Jarad, and Nighthawk
G10: Elf, 2/2 Splinterfright, Elderscale Wurm, and on T7 two more Splinterfrights 
G11: Griselbrand (via Rites), 4/4 Wurm, 4/4 Wurm, Mangler, and on T7 6/6 Splinterfright and Wurms both go to 6/6
G12: Elf, Elf, Mangler, Mangler, Elk, 3/3 Splinterfright, 3/3 Wurm

EDIT: Updated to include 3 more goldfish games.

G13: Ghoultree, Ghoultree, 6/6 Splinterfright, 6/6 Wurm, Shaman
G14: Elf, Elf, Shaman (no Mulch, Salvage, Swamps, or Cemeteries until T12!... I think this was a result of a poor randomizer program)
G15: 6/6 Splinter, 6/6 Splinter, Elf, Elf, Ghoultree, Jarad, and on T9 I finally get a plains, so I get a T9 Griselbrand, T10 Elderscale, and T11 Pathbreaker (I had 2 Rites in GY, 1 in hand)

I think the Rites version of the deck are convoluted, because Splinterfright, Mulch and Grisly Salvage enable all flashback spells and cards that count parts of the graveyard. Boneyard Wurm should be a sideboard card for matchups where extra Splinterfrights are a leg up. MD Wurms just make you even more dead to GY hate. It might also sound weird, but Creeping Renaissance is very potent with the Mulch/Splinterfright engine- even when it kills your snowballing creature to give you a new hand.

Because the deck does ramp, I also like to use Soul of the Harvest as an interchangable engine.
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I think the Rites version of the deck are convoluted, because Splinterfright, Mulch and Grisly Salvage enable all flashback spells and cards that count parts of the graveyard. Boneyard Wurm should be a sideboard card for matchups where extra Splinterfrights are a leg up. MD Wurms just make you even more dead to GY hate. It might also sound weird, but Creeping Renaissance is very potent with the Mulch/Splinterfright engine- even when it kills your snowballing creature to give you a new hand.

Because the deck does ramp, I also like to use Soul of the Harvest as an interchangable engine.



I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about Rites. Can you rephrase that a little more clearly, please?

As for Boneyard Wurm, I'm not sure what you mean by "MD Wurms" (Medical Doctor Wurms?), but it's intended to be essentially an expendable and cheaper version of Splinterfright to supplement the fertilizer mechanic. In some situations, I'll even cast them with an empty graveyard to help fill it up for Splinterfright, Jarad, or Ghoultree. I'm not sure what I could possibly replace it with for 2 mana that would be as useful in this deck, but you're welcome to offer suggestions.

The only time I'd really want Creeping Renaissance is to interrupt Terminus, but it's a sorcery, so no luck there. It would likely also tend to interfere with my Rites mechanic. My sideboard cards are already designed to deal with other similar threats. I'm really not looking to replace creatures with spells in this deck; the strength of this deck is directly proportional to its creature ratio.

Soul of the Harvest is one I've had in mind (and I love the artwork!), but ultimately I decided it wasn't the best fit. It's too weak to be worth Rites, and it's too expensive for early game, plus I already have plenty of draw with Mulch, Grisly, Orders, and Griselbrand (who is usually the first target of my Orders/Rites combo). I've also been considering Pathbreaker Wurm as a replacement for Elderscale Wurm because of (1) its potential synergy with Ghoultree and (2) its cheaper casting cost, which would be nice if I'm having bad luck with Rites and Orders. But I don't think I'd have it in play alongside Ghoultree often enough to be worth the loss of Elderscale's game-saving ability.
I think the Rites version of the deck are convoluted, because Splinterfright, Mulch and Grisly Salvage enable all flashback spells and cards that count parts of the graveyard. Boneyard Wurm should be a sideboard card for matchups where extra Splinterfrights are a leg up. MD Wurms just make you even more dead to GY hate. It might also sound weird, but Creeping Renaissance is very potent with the Mulch/Splinterfright engine- even when it kills your snowballing creature to give you a new hand.

Because the deck does ramp, I also like to use Soul of the Harvest as an interchangable engine.



I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about Rites. Can you rephrase that a little more clearly, please?



There are too many steps to the process. Mulch decks work better when they're either trying to just flip the deck upside down and have all of the lands they need to cast stuff, or when they are just trying to put a few specific cards in the bin to cheat them into play. Your list attmepts both, and they get in one another's way, since any card you add to feed the Splinterfright strategy takes away from mana dorks or utilities you need for Rites.

As for Boneyard Wurm, I'm not sure what you mean by "MD Wurms" (Medical Doctor Wurms?), but it's intended to be essentially an expendable and cheaper version of Splinterfright to supplement the fertilizer mechanic. In some situations, I'll even cast them with an empty graveyard to help fill it up for Splinterfright, Jarad, or Ghoultree. I'm not sure what I could possibly replace it with for 2 mana that would be as useful in this deck, but you're welcome to offer suggestions.



MD is jargon for "Main Deck". When you have wurms in your deck, and Splinterfright is a suboptimal draw, (against Rest in Peace for example), then your Wurms- which are redundant with your Splinterfright- Increase the number of bad draws you can have.

The only time I'd really want Creeping Renaissance is to interrupt Terminus, but it's a sorcery, so no luck there. It would likely also tend to interfere with my Rites mechanic. My sideboard cards are already designed to deal with other similar threats. I'm really not looking to replace creatures with spells in this deck; the strength of this deck is directly proportional to its creature ratio.



Creeping Renaissance isn't about stopping a wrath-effect, it's about taking cards you cannot retrieve via Flashback and filling your hand. Since Mulch turns your deck upside down, CR gives you options, and longevity, and having Flashback means that even if you put it into your graveyard, it isn't costing you a card to cast, pushing your handsize back to 7 with cards you actively want to have at the ready.

Soul of the Harvest is one I've had in mind (and I love the artwork!), but ultimately I decided it wasn't the best fit. It's too weak to be worth Rites, and it's too expensive for early game, plus I already have plenty of draw with Mulch, Grisly, Orders, and Griselbrand (who is usually the first target of my Orders/Rites combo). I've also been considering Pathbreaker Wurm as a replacement for Elderscale Wurm because of (1) its potential synergy with Ghoultree and (2) its cheaper casting cost, which would be nice if I'm having bad luck with Rites and Orders. But I don't think I'd have it in play alongside Ghoultree often enough to be worth the loss of Elderscale's game-saving ability.



o__O I think you should read Mulch again. Mulch allows you to retain ALL land cards you Mulch away- It's an Impulse for lands that can hit multiple times. Mulch decks don't really have a hard time finding the lands to play large mid and late game spells.
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Wynzerman,


Thanks for the feedback.

The idea is to use the mana dorks etc. for Rites early on, then use them as fertilizer later on, when they're no longer necessary. These aren't separate processes with discrete steps. Rather, if used properly here, they're interlaced gears in a greater machine.


Agreed that Wurm can potentially be redundant with Splinterfright, but still haven't heard a suggestion from you on a replacement which better suits this deck. I don't really think there is one. Basically, against RIP/Terminus/etc., I would just sideboard out 1-2 Wurms and replace with Duress or Naturalize. The sideboard is already listed and I see no reason to change the MD composition to deal with such a specific threat.


Creeping Renaissance just doesn't fit this deck except MAYBE in one or two very specific instances. The deck already has enough return-from-GY via Rites, and it has enough draw via Mulch and Grisly. If the board's been wiped, I want to get new creatures via draw so that they're strong when I drop them, not via emptying out my GY so that my Splinterfright is a 0/0 and my Ghoultree is at full casting cost.


I think you misunderstood my point about Mulch. I was saying that I already have enough draw power, so I don't need Soul of the Harvest's ability.

Here's how I see creeping rennaisance working; you use it, naming creatures. You get all those wonderful creatures in your hand, do whatever else you want to do for your turn, then discard all the creatures you want to discard minus the creatures you want to keep. Like, ghoultree and Fright. I could be werong on how wynzerman intended it, but that's how I see it.

as for the rest of it, your deck looks and feel really unfocused. The only way you can prove differently is to show us actual results, not goldfishing, that only goes so far. Do some actual testing and let us know what happens.
I would have killed, literally ended someones life, to NOT have Arrogant Bloodlord riding a giant ant... Good times:
Show
but where DID the other fork come from?
Show
Lord_Zed: I was at my friends house when this happened. He's married and his wife was an excellent baker. She had baked a homemade apple pie the night before. I was hungry, and my friend convinced me to try those low carb monster drinks. Before this day, I had never triend energy drinks before. Boy was I in for a treat. When I tried that first monster, I really enjoyed the flavor, but the taste that it left in my mouth wasn't so good. What was my solution? Drink another! before I could finish drinking that 2nd monster, I felt it already kicking in(these drinks were not very far apart, we're talking minutes here) my friend decided that it was a good idea to whip out that fresh pie his wife made the night before. I didn't know what to do, since I felt incredibly invigorated, and at the same time, freaked out by the rush I was feeling, but I was also hungry, and my friend have me an entire plate with a fork and said "help yourself." He extended his saucer to me, and I cut him a piece of the pie and handed it to him, then I looked at the pie, noticed that the pie was in an aluminum holder, and dumped the entire pie onto my plate and started eating it with 2 forks. I don't know where I found that other fork, it probably came from my friend. Anyhow, his wife wasn't happy, and I was already in magical christmas land. 2 days later, I was in my friends bed and I slept for 14 hours. His wife outlawed my from having any of her baked goods for a while(which sucked because I could just show up at there house, steal some sweets, and leave) and said I couldn't have any energy drinks at her house, unless under close watch. My friend, on the other hand, had to take me out to a steak dinner, because apparently I won a bet where I climbed a tree and didn't die.
The great land debate:
Show
97563441 wrote:
Zendikar had fetchlands, and Worldwake had manlands. What are the new Scars duals called?
61325265 wrote:
Explosive Peanut Lightning lands. Well, that's just what I call them.
61325265 wrote:
58232598 wrote:
i'm just trying to figure out what the point of saying this is. it's just really random.
And so the pot met the kettle.
Here's how I see creeping rennaisance working; you use it, naming creatures. You get all those wonderful creatures in your hand, do whatever else you want to do for your turn, then discard all the creatures you want to discard minus the creatures you want to keep. Like, ghoultree and Fright. I could be werong on how wynzerman intended it, but that's how I see it.

as for the rest of it, your deck looks and feel really unfocused. The only way you can prove differently is to show us actual results, not goldfishing, that only goes so far. Do some actual testing and let us know what happens.



Mostly, but more along the lines of this...
-Mulch or draw Creeping Renaissance and other stuff early.
-If you flip over lots of enchantment based removal or some sort of artifact package, then you get to choose between refreshing your hand with creature threats, or enchantments to oppress the board.
-If most of your non permanent cards have Flashback, then CR lets you reuse almost everything once you've flipped it over.
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Has anyone mentioned how this list may be better off RG or Jund than GB. Think about it, Bloodrush casts off a creature and in return Splinterfright gets exceptionally huge really fast. Of course I think as much ramp you can muster the better. red also opens up Faithless Looting which can give you turn one creature dumps.