Jace the Mind Sculptor

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So I'm fairly new to Magic, and one of my friends was telling me about this card, so I figured I'd check it out.

I just have to ask, why is it so expensive? It can't be used in standard anymore, its banned from Modern and Extended, so unless you play casual or legacy, it doesn't really seem worth the price.  Sure the card is great, but its got almost no use besides a friendly game or a legacy game.
Because a standard has been set for the price. Everyone wants the most money they can get for it, and because it once sold for so much money, they're reluctant to settle for less now. Some might call it greed, but I'd just say it's cold feet and fear of not getting the maximum profit.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Because a standard has been set for the price. Everyone wants the most money they can get for it, and because it once sold for so much money, they're reluctant to settle for less now. Some might call it greed, but I'd just say it's cold feet and fear of not getting the maximum profit.

The thing is though, nobody is going to pay that price now, so people have unrealistic expectations.

I'd rather sell a great card for $20 and use that money to buy cards to tweak other decks than have it just sit on my shelf and never be able to be used. 
obviously people are paying that price, otherwise it wouldn't be at that price

just like people will pay 4 digits for a Black Lotus
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It's expensive because it's one of the best Magic cards ever printed. 
obviously people are paying that price, otherwise it wouldn't be at that price

just like people will pay 4 digits for a Black Lotus

holy cow, I just looked this up.  Why do people pay this much for a card?  Who has that much money to burn?
obviously people are paying that price, otherwise it wouldn't be at that price

just like people will pay 4 digits for a Black Lotus

holy cow, I just looked this up.  Why do people pay this much for a card?  Who has that much money to burn?


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
The thing is though, nobody is going to pay that price now, so people have unrealistic expectations.

I'd rather sell a great card for $20 and use that money to buy cards to tweak other decks than have it just sit on my shelf and never be able to be used. 


If you thought his post seemed off, you're correct. He's a bit nuts.
But yes, the answer to 'Why are good cards expensive?' is "Because people are willing ot pay that much.'


Side note: GM_Champion should have to have a signature officially denoting him as totally off his rocker so that he doesn't scare away anybody who's new to the forum. 
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Who has that much money to burn?


Mostly single guys in good paying tech jobs. With no kids or need for a large house, they have a lot of disposable income.

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Because a standard has been set for the price. Everyone wants the most money they can get for it, and because it once sold for so much money, they're reluctant to settle for less now. Some might call it greed, but I'd just say it's cold feet and fear of not getting the maximum profit.

The thing is though, nobody is going to pay that price now, so people have unrealistic expectations.

I'd rather sell a great card for $20 and use that money to buy cards to tweak other decks than have it just sit on my shelf and never be able to be used. 




They don't care if it's not selling right away. The fear of taking a loss outweighs everything else, including any current demand or buyer trends. They'll hold onto them forever rather than take a loss. Just look at Pernicious Deed. Still top-dollar after all these years, and even after a crush of content (like Engineered Explosives) that gives Pernicious Deed more than a run for its money in any format it's open to.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Because a standard has been set for the price. Everyone wants the most money they can get for it, and because it once sold for so much money, they're reluctant to settle for less now. Some might call it greed, but I'd just say it's cold feet and fear of not getting the maximum profit.

The thing is though, nobody is going to pay that price now, so people have unrealistic expectations.

I'd rather sell a great card for $20 and use that money to buy cards to tweak other decks than have it just sit on my shelf and never be able to be used. 




They don't care if it's not selling right away. The fear of taking a loss outweighs everything else, including any current demand or buyer trends. They'll hold onto them forever rather than take a loss. Just look at Pernicious Deed. Still top-dollar after all these years, and even after a crush of content (like Engineered Explosives) that gives Pernicious Deed more than a run for its money in any format it's open to.


Supply and demand...
Buying a copy of MindSculptor isn't burning your money...
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Supply and demand is method used to control a specific market through monopoly and inflation. The entire concept was founded as a corrupt business scheme; and "Supply and Demand" is used to this day in a corrupt manner, to control the prices of things (gas, milk, tobacco, internet services etc.) so they can charge more money than it might actually be worth. And beyond this, the "Supply and Demand" scheme is used to constantly raise the price of those things over time. People have no choice but to accept the inflation price due to a monopoly on those commodities. Meaning they roll over and pay up everytime the price goes up. They have no choice because they need those things and the companies use this dependency to their advantage so they can soak up more and more profits.

Gas could easily cost 2 dollars a gallon. Milk could easily cost 1.25. Internet could cost 9.99 a month. But we have no choice but to pay those inflated costs because of a corrupt monopoly.

What you're saying does play in here Shadow, because Magic retailers are just as corrupt when it comes to the prices of singles and big products, and twice as desperate because they're not rich, they're just small time business owners; but the exception here is that JtMS isn't really in demand anymore, they're just keeping the price up to cast the illusion that it is, because they don't want to get less money for it than its once standard price (about $100).

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supply and demand is not corrupt, what are you talking about

it simply says that everything is worth as much as someone is willing to pay
if people don't pay your inflated prices you will not sell and have to lower the price
if they are paying your inflated prices they are not inflated

it's only a problem if there are too few sellers on the market, when they can control it like a cartel, as with oil for example
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Cartel doesn't have to take over anything, a legit business is just as hungry for profits. A majority of the corrupt hold on commodities these days is done by legit business'. They're using this "Supply and Demand" as an excuse because they've got a hold on the majority of that commodity and they want to get as much money for it as they can squeeze out of the people. Just think about it, you might be the king of your card game (and its market), but look at the bigger, darker picture—and you're just another brick in the wall.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

It costs that much because its busted. Players are willing to pay top dollar to achieve the most busted actions possible in a game of Magic, regardless of which format said busted actions take place. 

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Damn it, just when he was talking sense (fear of a loss does indeed hose the free workings of a market) he goes back to rubbish.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
Wait, so, like, is this going to happen to every thread now?  GM comes in and spouts of nonsense and conspiracy theories until it gets locked???

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He's actually not all that great. His biggest weakness is red. Skullscorch, Flames of the Blood Hand, Browbeat, Fireblast, Lava Blister, Reckless Abandon, Goblin Grenade, Flame Javelin, and Flame Rift are all quick and easy burns. He fails against anything Shroud/Hexproof (as does the entire control suit). And against card discard control, he's totally powerless. It's an overrated card.

Chandra Ablaze is a good example of a good, yet underrated planeswalker, and so is Sarkhan the Mad. I'd JtMS is so popular is because the media overrates him. Most people are reluctant to build their decks and know for themselves. They just go along with what the media tells them. It's too much for people to devise their own unique strategies. Once a "top-deck" is out there, it's easier for people to try and bridge off of something that already works. Lazy players.




Woah, woah, woah....what madness is this?!?!
Your idea of good cheap burn is.....Goblin Bomb?  Really? Really!!
Is this the new "dies to removal"
"Well, goblin bomb beats it..."
Really!?!?


Also, punisher cards?!?!?! Really!?!?!
JtMS is legal in legacy...so that's the perspective we should use right?

So...rather than pay zero mana for a 100% of the time wasteland, you can pay 2 mana for a Lava Blister and give the opponent the choice?
Rather than pay to get a 100% Hymn...you can play Skullscorch and give the opponent a choice??!!


Are you actually trying to make arguments here?  I find that hard to believe, you must just be jerking our chain....

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Wait, so, like, is this going to happen to every thread now?  GM comes in and spouts of nonsense and conspiracy theories until it gets locked???

that's his MO
until he is banned again, hopefully on all his accounts for once
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Wait, how does he fail against Hexproof? He gives you two brainstorms to find a sweeper...
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
The thing is though, nobody is going to pay that price now, so people have unrealistic expectations.

I'd rather sell a great card for $20 and use that money to buy cards to tweak other decks than have it just sit on my shelf and never be able to be used.

True. Some people are collectors, though.

Even if the card hasn't lost its price, it has lost its liquidity, so it has definitely lost value.

Myself, I think it's unfortunate that it was banned from Modern, as I was hoping for it to be more of a cheaper Legacy and less of a better Extended.

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in a few years when the memories of Cawblade have faded I'm sure he will be unbanned in Modern
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He's actually not all that great. His biggest weakness is red. Skullscorch, Flames of the Blood Hand, Browbeat, Fireblast, Lava Blister, Reckless Abandon, Goblin Grenade, Flame Javelin, and Flame Rift are all quick and easy burns. He fails against anything Shroud/Hexproof (as does the entire control suit). And against card discard control, he's totally powerless. It's an overrated card.

Chandra Ablaze is a good example of a good, yet underrated planeswalker, and so is Sarkhan the Mad. I'd JtMS is so popular is because the media overrates him. Most people are reluctant to build their decks and know for themselves. They just go along with what the media tells them. It's too much for people to devise their own unique strategies. Once a "top-deck" is out there, it's easier for people to try and bridge off of something that already works. Lazy players.



Not sure if serious...

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Assume he isn't. It's less terrifying if you think that way.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
He peaked at $130. He has always seen heavy Legacy play, and Vintage too, I'm sure. Plus, he's awesome and adds even more control to Blue. $60 is not surprising at all.
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Backint out of the side discussion on relative sanity, there IS play use for Jace, the Mind Sculptor The card sees use in Vintage, even if 5 people are in the format (I used an odd number on purpose). There is also the curiosity demand from those of us who are also collectors. Its a curiosity piece, and a card you can show off and talk about. I don't own one, but fortunately for the after market $50 these days does not even fill your tank at the gas station.

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cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.
cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.


groups started buying large amounts of the card to drive up the price. Look at Aluren and then it'll become really obvious. 
Also, he got a lot better in Legacy when Nimble Mongoose got pushed out of the format by Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace and Abrupt Decay (killing everything else in the deck).  Before RTR was released, he was like $80-90 tops.

On top of that, I've been hearing a lot of speculation that he'll be unbanned in Modern, possibly as early as the release of Gatecrash.
Unbanned? That'd make for an exciting three weeks.


Let's disreguard who said it and talk about retention of sell prices caused by fear of a loss. The same principle is why other things get dump. Either way a loss of value occurs. The market doesn't actually behave rationally, it just behaves reasonably rationally with friction being caused by the humans making it up.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
He's actually not all that great. His biggest weakness is red. Skullscorch, Flames of the Blood Hand, Browbeat, Fireblast, Lava Blister, Reckless Abandon, Goblin Grenade, Flame Javelin, and Flame Rift are all quick and easy burns. He fails against anything Shroud/Hexproof (as does the entire control suit). And against card discard control, he's totally powerless. It's an overrated card.



You forgot Vampire Hexmage.

Also, um, you clearly haven't played control. You can counter it or sweep it or force discard or fog it or edict it.

Chandra Ablaze is a good example of a good, yet underrated planeswalker, and so is Sarkhan the Mad. I'd JtMS is so popular is because the media overrates him. Most people are reluctant to build their decks and know for themselves. They just go along with what the media tells them. It's too much for people to devise their own unique strategies. Once a "top-deck" is out there, it's easier for people to try and bridge off of something that already works. Lazy players.



Chandra is kinda...Basically, Chandra wants you to play monored, but works best in Jund. Sarkhan...

0: This might be playable, but Sapling of Colfenor and Dark Confidant do it better.
-2: This is like Pongify or Beast Within, except that 90% of the time, a dragon is worse than what you had before.
-4: Okay, how often are you going to have multiple dragons out, other than EDH? Maybe something for Skithiryx, if you can swing -4, proliferate, -4, proliferate.
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cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.


groups started buying large amounts of the card to drive up the price. Look at Aluren and then it'll become really obvious. 


Jesus Christ I ****ing hate people.
cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.


groups started buying large amounts of the card to drive up the price. Look at Aluren and then it'll become really obvious. 



I don't get how this , how is this really going to drive up the price? They aren't destorying the cards creating a shortage of them, and if people aren't willing to pay the prices they ask, they just screw themselves out of money.
cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.


groups started buying large amounts of the card to drive up the price. Look at Aluren and then it'll become really obvious. 



I don't get how this , how is this really going to drive up the price? They aren't destorying the cards creating a shortage of them, and if people aren't willing to pay the prices they ask, they just screw themselves out of money.

But now the same amount of Jaces are on the hands of fewer people. Those few who now have the cards to sell will ask for a higher price, and players will not find it anywhere else to buy cheaper.


And you don't buy cards such as Jace just because it would look nice over your fireplace. You buy it to play with need, because the deck needs it; so you either pay their price or play a weaker deck at the tournament (and if you're paying just to be on the tourney, you should be running the best deck you can afford too).

[<o>]
I bought my Jace for $60 to use in my EDH decks, because he is a good card and I couldn't get anyone to trade them to me for anything other than revised duals, which I have had for many years and kind of want to keep.  

If anyone is trying to manipulate prices by cornering the Jace market, I wish them luck--tons of people have tried cornering different commodity markets throughout time, and it often (but not always) backfires in spectacular, bankruptcy inducing ways.  Wikipedia has a nifty article with some examples from history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornering_the_market

Personally, I suspect this is normal supply and demand taking hold, where large stores like starcitygames need to raise buy prices to keep inventory, so they raise sell prices to match until they have a steady influx/outflow of the card in question.  Its so much safer to do that rather than to attempt a corner and risk and risk massive loss when trying to sell off their goods, and takes so much less capital.
Actually, check out the price on Scroll Rack in the last year. magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card...
Back in May one person (I know this person) bought every copy of Scroll Rack on websites and eBay. It worked out to his advantage that Land Tax got unbanned the month after allowing him to unload the dozens of Scroll Racks with signifigant profit. Cornering a card can work.
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Actually, check out the price on Scroll Rack in the last year. magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card...
Back in May one person (I know this person) bought every copy of Scroll Rack on websites and eBay. It worked out to his advantage that Land Tax got unbanned the month after allowing him to unload the dozens of Scroll Racks with signifigant profit. Cornering a card can work.



I remember the price on scroll rack went up when the Miracle mechanic was revealed, that might have something to do with it.
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cards.info now has him at 100-130, what happened? He was at 60 like a month ago.


groups started buying large amounts of the card to drive up the price. Look at Aluren and then it'll become really obvious. 


Jesus Christ I ****ing hate people.


As long as capitalism is the economic system in which we operate then it's going to be like this. The people buying the cards are taking a substantial risk. 

So you know how the price of Sword of Light and Shadow and Fire and Ice were greatly inflated? That was StarCity's doing and now they are selling them mostly at cost to try to recoop loses. They thought they were going to skyrocket like some of the other cards they've done this too. However there is obviously less risk for them since they're a giant company.  
You play Sarkhan the Mad alongside Sarkhan Vol. They'd take up your 4 and 5 CMC slots. As for the first ability, it nets you a free card when you reveal a land, and if you're using a very very low mana curve (oh so very common), he's going to net you 4 cards on average before you mine as well just pop off the second ability and him.

Chandra Ablaze and red-blue. Using really big bad spells and lots of wheel/mill effects. Gamble to find her.

Sway of the Stars // Warp World as the big spells (or Time Stretch // Time Reversal).

Red using Seething Song to get her out. Madness and Threshold is solid—and serious business with Wheel of Fortune // Wheel of Fate. Those wheels can work really well on their own though when you stuff the deck with big burn spells. There is no worry about casting them outright for their high costs because the entire basis of your deck revoles around having cards to discard to Chandra and then multiple busts with her ultimate. You shouldn't need more than two or three big burn spells to win it. I'd say just four Searing Wind is enough, but I'd back it up with 2 Searing Flesh.



You know what's better and faster than that?
A deck full of Lightning Bolts....

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I was mistaken. I forgot that her ultimate doesn't allow non-red spells to be cast. I edited my post accordingly.


That wouldn't be as creative at all Kaioshin, so I wouldn't consider it better.

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