The Big Debate 2013: Hexproof vs. Shroud

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Ever since hexproof was first released in M12, I have seen this debate constantly popping up over forums, so I've decided to end it here and now.


The Isssues:

Mechanics: After a year of hexproof, we all have a pretty good feel of it by now. Cheap and powerful creatures with hexproof seem to be too powerful and remove interaction from the game. Wizards has now said that they will stop mixing evasion and hexproof in the same card, but is that enough?

Flavor: It's not a difficult question. Do you think it's more logical for creatures to be immune to all magic or just their opponent's.

Design space: If magic is to last for decades to come, is there enough design space left in shroud to justify bringing it back?



Now Go!!!


  

Go Hexproof, Shroud sucks, anyone that disagrees is a dimir troll.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

I hate DImir, and I hate Trolls like the person who posted above me.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

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Well, this is amusing.

I personally think Shroud is better for widespread use, but I'm not experienced on the topic.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Hexproof is bad for magic.

Invisible Stalker had hexproof and evasion. Not really breaking formats open when he was standard legal... is not even a blip in Legacy... its just the ultimate in non-interactive card design.

Non-evasive hexproofs are generally overpowered. Geist, Thrun. Stacking cards on these guys is always good.

They make for 2 games of solitaire.

All my opinion, and all easily shot up. I just don't like the design. 

IMAGE(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g424/syreal94/SIGNichecopy.png)

Fix your Forum Experience here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/new-site-feedback/threads/3925861

Boasts?

2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Shroud is a much better mechanic.  It gives you a big benefit, but also forces you to make intelligent decisions.  Its a solidly balanced mechanic.

Hexproof on the other hand is not.  Its completely one sided and limits design space because R&D has to keep it in mind whenever balancing new cards.  Its one of those mechanics that they could very easily break on accident by printing the wrong card(s).

Current decks
Comments or suggestions are always welcome

Modern
nothing at the moment

Hexproof is bad for magic.

Invisible Stalker had hexproof and evasion. Not really breaking formats open when he was standard legal... is not even a blip in Legacy... its just the ultimate in non-interactive card design.

Non-evasive hexproofs are generally overpowered. Geist, Thrun. Stacking cards on these guys is always good.

They make for 2 games of solitaire.

All my opinion, and all easily shot up. I just don't like the design. 



It's got more to do with the lack of interaction. But on the other hand, it's also all-upside, and right now, defender and protection are the only keywords that aren't.

Also, wait, you're saying Stalker is underpowered, but Traft and Thrun are overpowered because of hexproof? Wait, what?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Stalker is less powerful because it needs support before becoming insane.  It isn't overpowered because paying 2 mana for 1/1 isn't good.  Without other effort, it's just a Curse of the Pierced Heart, which is bad.

Geist is terrible because as a 3 CMC guy that attacks for 6, it was already insane.  No need to stack hexproof on top of that.

Thrun wasn't ok because it was already 100% uninteractive.  Hexproof just made it more so.
Shroud.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c1b8574f03c7cff35d72311f1208599a.jpg?v=90000)

I prefer Shroud, for several reasons. Shroud is rather balanced from the get-go. Your opponent can't touch it, but neither can you. 


But the real reason I prefer Shroud is because cards like Sphinx of Jwar Isle couldn't possibly be printed with Hexproof.


And it's not like they didn't use the technology of Hexproof when they still used Shroud. Now they can't really use Shroud again.

After the official forums lost most of their functionality, a once vibrant community of Vorthos was wiped out.The survivors founded a new place to discuss all things concerning with the art, flavor and storylines of Magic: The Gathering. Come join us.

I should add that I think shroud was fine.  It forced both sides of the table to play under the same rules.  Hexproof was bad because it is inherently unfair.

That said, I think they've realized that hexproof is a mistake and leads to unfun board states.  When a hexproof creature comes down, someone is no longer playing Magic.  And if they've realized that hexproof is bad for the game (which it is), they will not be able to bring back shroud.  After all, hexproof happened because all the whiny little trolls out there were crying that they couldn't do anything to the creature either.  Wizards will never go back to shroud because newer players don't like the symmetry.  So if they're wanting to do away with hexproof, nothing similar will be printed.
Stalker is less powerful because it needs support before becoming insane.  It isn't overpowered because paying 2 mana for 1/1 isn't good.  Without other effort, it's just a Curse of the Pierced Heart, which is bad.

Geist is terrible because as a 3 CMC guy that attacks for 6, it was already insane.  No need to stack hexproof on top of that.

Thrun wasn't ok because it was already 100% uninteractive.  Hexproof just made it more so.



What I was more getting at is that none of them are truly OP. Geist can be blocked by Porcelain Legionnaire, an answer for one less mana...and it's a Phyrexian mana card, so it can be used in any deck.

Thrun is only hexproof, regenerate (which is usually irrelevant), and "~ can't be countered". Which I can see how that's OP. I mean, it's not like every color gets -X/-X effects or anything. Oh wait.

Stalker isn't really OP, just really annoying. On its own. Note that "It's no danger on its own, so don't worry about it." is a half-truth when applied to virtually every card in Magic.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Rapid clocks that are hexproof and A) Easy to protect or B) easy to clear a path for... are busted. Stalker isn't a rapid clock. Thrun and Geist are huge clocks.

I loved Shroud. I didn't mind dealing with Blastoderm or Calciderm... they were brutes but it wasn't like someone was going to give them a warhammer or armadillo cloak.

Greg and I used Troll-hammer when 10th edition was legal to punish people's solid deck design... because most people didn't account for a non-interactive clock that ruined your clock and was extremely difficult to answer (only a sac effect worked then). And it was ok that it never took off, but anytime wotc thought about printing hexproof they should ask themselves how does Troll Ascetic look in this format? Ok how about as a 4/4 that cannot be countered? Ok how about as a 2/2 that makes 4/4 flying tokens?

Shroud, great. Hexproof? Shenanigans. 

IMAGE(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g424/syreal94/SIGNichecopy.png)

Fix your Forum Experience here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/new-site-feedback/threads/3925861

Boasts?

2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

They printed hexproof with so few mass removal
I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
I prefer Hexproof. It leads to interesting gameplay, mix of cards where there weren't before, and the worst thing it did was lower the usefulness of targeted removal. We play more sweepers, that's all.

People often point out Invisible Stalker and Thrun when talking about Hexproof. The problem with those isn't Hexproof; it's the combination of multiple anti-interactive abilities, especially Thrun.

People also often say that Shroud required more thought. I disagree. Shroud interacted with nothing. Hexproof interacts with your things. I find that building a deck with the possibility of your protected guys being enchanted/targeted/equipped far outweights the strategic value of having to play around a keyword that blocks it.

So yes, I like Hexproof more than Shroud. 

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

If you haven't played against Hexblade or bant auras or the Slippery Bogle deck, have a friend proxy won up and see how fun it is. 

Hexproof is one of the worst mechanics in Magic and should actuall read, "target player doesn't have fun".

Also, the argument isn't about which one is more fun for you personally to use. If I want to win obviously having hexproof on my guys is good and makes it harder for my opponent. However, it's terrible design and shouldn't exist bar on a few cards in which they could justify it. There shouldn't be multiple creatures per block with it. 
Removal and Counterspells and Discard and Wrath Effects and Land Destruction are five of the worst mechanics in Magic and should actuall read, "target player doesn't have fun".



Hexproof is a neccesity sometimes for me to have fun.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

Removal and Counterspells and Discard and Wrath Effects and Land Destruction are five of the worst mechanics in Magic and should actuall read, "target player doesn't have fun".



Hexproof is a neccesity sometimes for me to have fun.



Yes, please edit my post to make it seem completely stupid. I love it. 

Removal, counter magic, discard spells, wrath effects, and land destruction all interact with your opponent. The problem with hexproof is lack of interaction.

This is even basic enough for you to understand. 
You need to understand that magic has too many inter-player negative interactions and it is detrimental to the game

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

When you force an opponent to do something out of there control, then you usually are making the game less fun.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

BY interacting with your opponent then you are effectively taking away their ability to have fun most of the time.

Mafia Game Slots:

1. Open

2. Hundred Acres (Dead Town)

3. Open

4. Open

5. Open

6. Open

Well, I guess it was too hard for you to understand. Par for the course at least. 
We can put some life back into Shroud easily. 1 mana for a 2/1 shroud creature. Make it happen.
BY interacting with your opponent then you are effectively taking away their ability to have fun most of the time.



If someone honestly feels that way I suppose I'll just stop "interacting" with them and go interact with someone else instead.

Seriously, we arent playing competitive solitaire.

Current decks
Comments or suggestions are always welcome

Modern
nothing at the moment


Hexproof is one of the worst mechanics in Magic and should actually read, "target player doesn't have fun".


I couldn't agree with this more, for obvious reasons.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Hexproof is a stronger mechanic than Shroud, but from an objective (or at least, looking at both user and opponent perspectives) viewpoint its much worse design.

Hexproof encourages strategies and decks where your opponent doesn't get to play with you; you could just as easily play against a goldfish or a computer.

It's a one-sided low interaction mechanic (though not the only one), and with the number of creatures wearing it nowadays, it comes at virtually no cost.

I understand why its there, and why WotC likes it, but it promotes bad gameplay and I would see it reduced to an occasional occurrence, though not eliminated entirely.

That it demanded an obvious and outrageously narrow hate card in gatecrash is evidence that WotC messed up with their application of the mechanic.
Hexproof is a stronger mechanic than Shroud, but from an objective (or at least, looking at both user and opponent perspectives) viewpoint its much worse design.

Hexproof encourages strategies and decks where your opponent doesn't get to play with you; you could just as easily play against a goldfish or a computer.

It's a one-sided low interaction mechanic (though not the only one), and with the number of creatures wearing it nowadays, it comes at virtually no cost.

I understand why its there, and why WotC likes it, but it promotes bad gameplay and I would see it reduced to an occasional occurrence, though not eliminated entirely.

That it demanded an obvious and outrageously narrow hate card in gatecrash is evidence that WotC messed up with their application of the mechanic.

Also, the hexproof mirror match in one of the largest grand prix ever....yeah

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
I always laugh when I see someone that point out that certain cards/mechanics arent used in a tournament and thus are not affecting players or are not strong for the large majority of players.

I'm pretty damn sure that dungrove elder is scarier than tarmogoyf for a large majority of the players. The fact that goyf is about 20 times better than the elder doesnt change much in casual, since the hexproof is something you have to work around that usually involve killing your own stuff with mass removal and the elder can scale higher than goyf. For a large majority of the player, elder is scarier
I love trolls Dont hate me because I'm blunt and you cannot handle it
Seriously, we arent playing competitive solitaire.


Best summary I've seen thus far.

Chalk another vote up for Shroud here.  At least it makes you think, too.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
Geist of Saint Traft is one of the reasons I started playing blue. If you can counter him, you don't need to rip your hair out trying to deal with him once he hits the battlefield.

Then again, I love me some primal huntbeast. Not too big for when it hits the board (trades with centaurs, blocked by walls, etc.) but I can boost it, if I want.

Fortunately, Gatecrash has some hexproof hate on its way. And you know people who keep playing Geist are going to maindeck some artifact destruction just to deal with it.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

There is always going to be something in magic the gathering that a portion of people won't like. For example I really don't like counter spells because to me it feels like i don't get to interact with my opponent. Do i want them to remove all counter spells because i hate them, NO.

With that being said, i believe a way to help remedy this situation(besides not making things with the hexproof keyword anymore) is to make it so only green gets hexproof on creatures(either at a 4cmc+ or on just legendary creatures) and blue gets to have it on reasonably costed instants. This to me seems fair because the only problem i have with hexproof is when they put it on blue creatures, since a player can just resolve it and keep it from ever being destroyed with counter magic.

Go Shroud, Hexproof sucks, anyone that disagrees is a Zokorad.


IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
The problem with Hexproof is when it comes front loaded on already over-the-top creatures. Lazav and Sigarda are very tasteful examples of Hexproof working to solidify the mechanical integrity of a complex card by making it difficult to interact with. Geist of Saint Traft on the otherhand is an example of Hexproof done wrong. The glass cannon cleric could have had First Strike, Lifelink or made permanent angels and it would have been perfecty fine as it was. But giving it a reach of 6 damage on the goldfish for a 3 drop and immunity from targetting was a design mistake that has warped the metagame since it's printing.

However- Hexproof on cards that counter targeted removal (Mizzium Skin, Sheltering Word) are good designs for Hexproof, since they play to being counterspells with value functionality when they are cast.

Shroud, on the otherhand has made many powerful creatures on it's own. From Simic Sky Swallower (a personal favorite), to Naya Hushblade, and my guilty Johnny pleasure, Empyrial Archangel. But Shroud is a much more fun mechanic to make cheap and easily usable by all colors because it carries a symmetrical effect, something that Magic hasn't had enough of in the last few sets.
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The problem with Hexproof is when it comes front loaded on already over-the-top creatures. Lazav and Sigarda are very tasteful examples of Hexproof working to solidify the mechanical integrity of a complex card by making it difficult to interact with. Geist of Saint Traft on the otherhand is an example of Hexproof done wrong. The glass cannon cleric could have had First Strike, Lifelink or made permanent angels and it would have been perfecty fine as it was. But giving it a reach of 6 damage on the goldfish for a 3 drop and immunity from targetting was a design mistake that has warped the metagame since it's printing.

However- Hexproof on cards that counter targeted removal (Mizzium Skin, Sheltering Word) are good designs for Hexproof, since they play to being counterspells with value functionality when they are cast.

Shroud, on the otherhand has made many powerful creatures on it's own. From Simic Sky Swallower (a personal favorite), to Naya Hushblade, and my guilty Johnny pleasure, Empyrial Archangel. But Shroud is a much more fun mechanic to make cheap and easily usable by all colors because it carries a symmetrical effect, something that Magic hasn't had enough of in the last few sets.



Pretty much. Dunno about Sigourney though. I mean she's pricey and gets shut down by Thornweald Archer so I guess she's not terrible, but her anti sacrifice ability combined with hexproof is best summarized by another poster (Fenix I believe), who said something to the effect of "Are you sure you didn't mean to give her unblockable instead of flying? I feel like I can almost interact with her."

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
The problem with Hexproof is when it comes front loaded on already over-the-top creatures. Lazav and Sigarda are very tasteful examples of Hexproof working to solidify the mechanical integrity of a complex card by making it difficult to interact with. Geist of Saint Traft on the otherhand is an example of Hexproof done wrong. The glass cannon cleric could have had First Strike, Lifelink or made permanent angels and it would have been perfecty fine as it was. But giving it a reach of 6 damage on the goldfish for a 3 drop and immunity from targetting was a design mistake that has warped the metagame since it's printing.

However- Hexproof on cards that counter targeted removal (Mizzium Skin, Sheltering Word) are good designs for Hexproof, since they play to being counterspells with value functionality when they are cast.

Shroud, on the otherhand has made many powerful creatures on it's own. From Simic Sky Swallower (a personal favorite), to Naya Hushblade, and my guilty Johnny pleasure, Empyrial Archangel. But Shroud is a much more fun mechanic to make cheap and easily usable by all colors because it carries a symmetrical effect, something that Magic hasn't had enough of in the last few sets.



Pretty much. Dunno about Sigourney though. I mean she's pricey and gets shut down by Thornweald Archer so I guess she's not terrible, but her anti sacrifice ability combined with hexproof is best summarized by another poster (Fenix I believe), who said something to the effect of "Are you sure you didn't mean to give her unblockable instead of flying? I feel like I can almost interact with her."




Sigarda is much more fair than she was blown up to be when she was a new card. The card is explicitly designed to be difficult to remove, but with 3 weights and a CMC of 5 in her casting cost, she's much more reasoable to cast any sort of Wrath on, or answer with a bigger spider or flyer. GoST, by comparison, demands premature Wraths and force reactive decks to overextend. Sigarda, on the otherhand, simply requires reactive decks to reach a little.

Also, I really like Fenix, but let's be honest, what makes him love Lazav but hate Sigarda isn't so much what the card says so much as she's a heron-angel whose gold border is lined with green and white. But there's nothing wrong with a little bias :P
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I vastly prefer Shroud as a balanced mechanic. Hexproof just feels cheap. That, and Shroud has been around a very long time, it just wasn't always called that, like how Vigilance was just printed as "Attacking Does Not Cause ____ to Tap." Shroud was just "Cannot be the target of spells or effects." It's had a long to get acquanted and be balanced out.

I first saw Shroud creatures in the Alliances expansion way, way back in the day, on cards like deadly insect. I loved the flavor of having this big bug, that stings HARD, can't be targeted by anyone, but at 1 Toughness, could be squished like, well, a bug. One of my favorites in that set.

Shroud makes the player think harder about how to use it, and I like that. Hexproof is like kid-gloves. "Aww, is the other player zapping your creatures? Here, let mommy make them quit being mean." Bah.

And for the record, I HATE invisible stalker. Sure, he can be removed all sorts of ways, but he's one of the biggest reasons my Izzet themed deck always runs 4 electrickery.
The problem with Hexproof is when it comes front loaded on already over-the-top creatures. Lazav and Sigarda are very tasteful examples of Hexproof working to solidify the mechanical integrity of a complex card by making it difficult to interact with. Geist of Saint Traft on the otherhand is an example of Hexproof done wrong. The glass cannon cleric could have had First Strike, Lifelink or made permanent angels and it would have been perfecty fine as it was. But giving it a reach of 6 damage on the goldfish for a 3 drop and immunity from targetting was a design mistake that has warped the metagame since it's printing.

However- Hexproof on cards that counter targeted removal (Mizzium Skin, Sheltering Word) are good designs for Hexproof, since they play to being counterspells with value functionality when they are cast.

Shroud, on the otherhand has made many powerful creatures on it's own. From Simic Sky Swallower (a personal favorite), to Naya Hushblade, and my guilty Johnny pleasure, Empyrial Archangel. But Shroud is a much more fun mechanic to make cheap and easily usable by all colors because it carries a symmetrical effect, something that Magic hasn't had enough of in the last few sets.



Pretty much. Dunno about Sigourney though. I mean she's pricey and gets shut down by Thornweald Archer so I guess she's not terrible, but her anti sacrifice ability combined with hexproof is best summarized by another poster (Fenix I believe), who said something to the effect of "Are you sure you didn't mean to give her unblockable instead of flying? I feel like I can almost interact with her."




Sigarda is much more fair than she was blown up to be when she was a new card. The card is explicitly designed to be difficult to remove, but with 3 weights and a CMC of 5 in her casting cost, she's much more reasoable to cast any sort of Wrath on, or answer with a bigger spider or flyer. GoST, by comparison, demands premature Wraths and force reactive decks to overextend. Sigarda, on the otherhand, simply requires reactive decks to reach a little.


Also, I really like Fenix, but let's be honest, what makes him love Lazav but hate Sigarda isn't so much what the card says so much as she's a heron-angel whose gold border is lined with green and white. But there's nothing wrong with a little bias :P


How is Lazav, Dimir Mastermind even close to Sigarda, Host of Herons? I wouldn't even say it's particularly good, much less an offender of being tastelessly uninteractive. In fact, both players can interact with Lazav in many interesting ways - that's part of the fun of the card.

By the way, most of the reason I responded to this was to autocard those two cards because I thought it was ridiculous that they were basically the only two cards actually being discussed and yet they were the only cards that were not autocarded.


Hexproof is one of the worst mechanics in Magic and should actually read, "target player doesn't have fun".


I couldn't agree with this more, for obvious reasons.




I'd actually say "doesn't have fun" is more stuff like land destruction.

Losing in a way you haven't lost before is fun.
Losing because Ant Queen and infinite mana is fun.
Losing because you didn't have an answer to Baneslayer is fun.
Losing because alternative win condition is fun.
Losing because your lands are all gone isn't fun at all.
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The problem with Hexproof is when it comes front loaded on already over-the-top creatures. Lazav and Sigarda are very tasteful examples of Hexproof working to solidify the mechanical integrity of a complex card by making it difficult to interact with. Geist of Saint Traft on the otherhand is an example of Hexproof done wrong. The glass cannon cleric could have had First Strike, Lifelink or made permanent angels and it would have been perfecty fine as it was. But giving it a reach of 6 damage on the goldfish for a 3 drop and immunity from targetting was a design mistake that has warped the metagame since it's printing.

However- Hexproof on cards that counter targeted removal (Mizzium Skin, Sheltering Word) are good designs for Hexproof, since they play to being counterspells with value functionality when they are cast.

Shroud, on the otherhand has made many powerful creatures on it's own. From Simic Sky Swallower (a personal favorite), to Naya Hushblade, and my guilty Johnny pleasure, Empyrial Archangel. But Shroud is a much more fun mechanic to make cheap and easily usable by all colors because it carries a symmetrical effect, something that Magic hasn't had enough of in the last few sets.



Pretty much. Dunno about Sigourney though. I mean she's pricey and gets shut down by Thornweald Archer so I guess she's not terrible, but her anti sacrifice ability combined with hexproof is best summarized by another poster (Fenix I believe), who said something to the effect of "Are you sure you didn't mean to give her unblockable instead of flying? I feel like I can almost interact with her."




Sigarda is much more fair than she was blown up to be when she was a new card. The card is explicitly designed to be difficult to remove, but with 3 weights and a CMC of 5 in her casting cost, she's much more reasoable to cast any sort of Wrath on, or answer with a bigger spider or flyer. GoST, by comparison, demands premature Wraths and force reactive decks to overextend. Sigarda, on the otherhand, simply requires reactive decks to reach a little.


Also, I really like Fenix, but let's be honest, what makes him love Lazav but hate Sigarda isn't so much what the card says so much as she's a heron-angel whose gold border is lined with green and white. But there's nothing wrong with a little bias :P


How is Lazav, Dimir Mastermind even close to Sigarda, Host of Herons? I wouldn't even say it's particularly good, much less an offender of being tastelessly uninteractive. In fact, both players can interact with Lazav in many interesting ways - that's part of the fun of the card.

By the way, most of the reason I responded to this was to autocard those two cards because I thought it was ridiculous that they were basically the only two cards actually being discussed and yet they were the only cards that were not autocarded.




=( I see how it is,  you only reply out of OCD for non-autocarding.

That's kind of the whole point of Sigarda, she's just freakin tough to get rid of. But other than that she's just a sturdy creature and that works. It's hard to "play under" with Sigarda, because she is costed such that there is reasonable time to find an answer. Difficult to deal with or "non-interactive", doesn't make bad design. Adding that kind of difficulty to an already bonkers card is.
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The ideal ennvironment would have 80% of interaction come in the combat phase or be something that helps you without harming you opponent (like Clone.  Fenix is trolling.)  I once actually compared the ideal MTG environment in my mind with a Pair of Solitare games with some backstabbing.  I do consider Burn fine though Shock and cards that delay your opponent Remand.  I condider allowing Planeswalkers to be attacked to be the wrong method to balance them.  Hexproof is a step to making MTG closer to an ideal game.

 

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The ideal ennvironment would have 80% of interaction come in the combat phase or be something that helps you without harming you opponent (like Clone.  Fenix is trolling.)  I once actually compared the ideal MTG environment in my mind with a Pair of Solitare games with some backstabbing.  I do consider Burn fine though Shock and cards that delay your opponent Remand.  I condider allowing Planeswalkers to be attacked to be the wrong method to balance them.  Hexproof is a step to making MTG closer to an ideal game.

 

I don't know if I could disagree more. Combat can be a good time for interaction, but 80%? Isn't that a little much? What are we counting as "interaction" here? Even if we're including the act of attacking and blocking I'd say that's too much. Also, how do you help yourself without hurting your opponent and how can one even consider that to be interaction?