Why Are Multiple Attacks "Bad"


 On the forums here I have seen a few claims that multiple attacks are bad mostly due to being time consuming. The other day in D&DN the Fighter and Rogue were using up a fair amount of time adding up damage from martial dice and martial bonus to damage.

 Adding up 4W or whatever in 4th ed did not seem to be that much quicker than rolling 2-3 attacks and we have recently started playing 2nd ed and the dager specialist was rolling 5 atacks a round and combat there was quicker than anything in 3rd and 4th ed. Is it an edition war thing? I can understand people preferring one attack or whatever for various reasons but it takes to long doesn't seem to stack up as one of them.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  


 On the forums here I have seen a few claims that multiple attacks are bad mostly due to being time consuming. The other day in D&DN the Fighter and Rogue were using up a fair amount of time adding up damage from martial dice and martial bonus to damage.

 Adding up 4W or whatever in 4th ed did not seem to be that much quicker than rolling 2-3 attacks and we have recently started playing 2nd ed and the dager specialist was rolling 5 atacks a round and combat there was quicker than anything in 3rd and 4th ed. Is it an edition war thing? I can understand people preferring one attack or whatever for various reasons but it takes to long doesn't seem to stack up as one of them.



Multiple attacks that you do not have to declare at the start do in fact slow down the game. This is because the user can determine the result of the attack before deciding to attack a different target. If all attacks had to be rolled/declared at once this slowdown could be averted.

Multiple attacks with different attack bonuses (3e iterative attacks) do slow down the game. This can be averted if all attacks from a multi-attack used the same attack bonus.
  
Multiple attacks are bad for damage as instead of providing linear growth, damage growth comes in spurts that result in dramatically increased damage. They also promote the use of stacking static damage.

These issues can be averted by having multiple attacks work like this. Each additional attack grants you an extra d20 roll. Each "hit" beyond the first deals + 1[W] damage. If any of the attacks crit, the attack is a critical hit, but you cannot get a "double critical".
It is slower, ALOT SLOWER!, you are rolling attack roll, confirming hit then damage calculation over and over and over again...instead of only once...it's multiplying the amount of time some's turn last

It's turning a 6 step procedure:

1.Roll d20
2.Add Bonus
3.Confirm Hit
4.Roll damage dices
5.Add damage rolls bonus
6.Substract  HP from victim

Into a 12 or 18 step procedure just for swinging your weapon to deal damage:

=First Attack=
1.Roll d20
2.Add Bonus
3.Confirm Hit
4.Roll damage dices
5.Add damage rolls bonus
6.Substract  HP from victim
=Second Attack=
7.Roll d20
8.Add Bonus
9.Confirm Hit
10.Roll damage dices
11.Add damage rolls bonus
12.Substract  HP from victim 
=Third Attack=
13.Roll d20
14.Add Bonus
15.Confirm Hit
16.Roll damage dices
17.Add damage rolls bonus
18.Substract  HP from victim 

I am getting tired of D&DNext turning procedures that should be simple and fast into sluggish procedures and overcomplicated and less streamlines mechanics... 
Speed (math):  Even if it's not that much difference, there's no way that rolling 4*(1d20 + 1d8) is faster then 1d20+4d8.

Speed (choice): Everything is chosen at the start.  You can't hit, see if something's dead, then spend a minutes deciding on what to attack next.

Balance (muliplier):  Things like "+5 damage when you hit something", or "decapitate on a crit" become alot harder to balance when the number of attacks change.  Not impossible, but harder, especially if your using #of attacks as your main difference between classes  (i.e. 5 attacks for fighter, 3 attacks for cleric).



What's the benifit of muliple attacks?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The concept of multiple attacks in and of itself is not problematic in the slightest.  It is the specific implementation which might cause issues.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.



I dislike using the word never, but this may be somewhat accurate.  However I say there is no great time lost to multiple attacks.  It opens up different play styles while putting very little limit on others.  Also as much as everyone hates tradition multiple attacks has been in every edition.  It isn't really a question of if they will be in just how they will be handled.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

I dislike using the word never, but this may be somewhat accurate.  However I say there is no great time lost to multiple attacks.  It opens up different play styles while putting very little limit on others.  Also as much as everyone hates tradition multiple attacks has been in every edition.  It isn't really a question of if they will be in just how they will be handled.

What does it open up?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If you must choose all your targets at once, the speed issue can be minimal.  However, with the (dis)advantage mechanic, it becomes very difficult to resolve multi-attacks with a single dice pool, as you have to keep track which (dis)advantage dice match which other dice.  So you have to roll each attack separately in that situation.  (Unless you have several pairs of differently colored dice.  In that case, you could roll two blue, two red, and two yelloe to repsent your disadvantaged three attacks.)

If you can choose a new target after each attack, the slow-down become considerable.

BUT

Trying to balance multi-attacks in a game that also has single attacks produces a variance that is very very difficult to balance.  So difficult that I don't think it's worth trying.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.



Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.

Take a fighter with 4 attacks at 1d8+7 damage and a fighter with one attack at 4d8+28 damage.

This fighter must roll 4d20, determine the number of hits from 4d20, pick up that number of d8s, roll those d8s, then add the total (including multiples of the static modifier).

With a single 4d8+28 damage attack the fighter can roll the d20 and the 4d8 at the same time and has no need for the extra middle step of choosing how many d8s to roll. He also has more of his math calculated for him.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.

If you have a good parrallel proccessor (which brains do, if not neccicaraly for dice rolls), it doesn't slow anything down.

Still, it will never be faster.  At best you get parity.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

They should do it like 4E does area attacks. Roll each attack, but roll damage once...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.

If you have a good parrallel proccessor (which brains do, if not neccicaraly for dice rolls), it doesn't slow anything down.

Still, it will never be faster.  At best you get parity.



Well, only if you color code your attack and damage dice and can roll your attack and damage roll in a single handful at the same time.

And then only if you know the number needed to hit the targets AC. Otherwise you get:  "red d20 has a 15, blue has an 8, white has a 7, and green has a 12. DM, how many hits?"
They should do it like 4E does area attacks. Roll each attack, but roll damage once...


What if you weild a shortsword in one hand and a dagger in the other?
They should do it like 4E does area attacks. Roll each attack, but roll damage once...


What if you weild a shortsword in one hand and a dagger in the other?



You take the lower damage dice...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
They should do it like 4E does area attacks. Roll each attack, but roll damage once...


What if you weild a shortsword in one hand and a dagger in the other?



That is why I wan't "Dual Wield" to be a single d8 (or d6 for finesse) damage weapon, where you get to make two attacks at 1/2 damage each.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.

If you have a good parrallel proccessor (which brains do, if not neccicaraly for dice rolls), it doesn't slow anything down.

Still, it will never be faster.  At best you get parity.

Well, only if you color code your attack and damage dice and can roll your attack and damage roll in a single handful at the same time.

And then only if you know the number needed to hit the targets AC. Otherwise you get:  "red d20 has a 15, blue has an 8, white has a 7, and green has a 12. DM, how many hits?"

You could speed that up a bit (if 8 hits, all things above 8 hit)...

But yes.  You will need a specilized system, and lot's of training to not slow down.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

They should do it like 4E does area attacks. Roll each attack, but roll damage once...


What if you weild a shortsword in one hand and a dagger in the other?

That is why I wan't "Dual Wield" to be a single d8 (or d6 for finesse) damage weapon, where you get to make two attacks at 1/2 damage each.

I did like the 1/2 damage the best.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

I dislike using the word never, but this may be somewhat accurate.  However I say there is no great time lost to multiple attacks.  It opens up different play styles while putting very little limit on others.  Also as much as everyone hates tradition multiple attacks has been in every edition.  It isn't really a question of if they will be in just how they will be handled.

What does it open up?




it lets me throw larger groups of smaller things.

Everyone seems to be talking about multiple attacks as if they would all be used against the same monster.  Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.  In fact given current design and "action economy" (the fact that you can move attack then finish moving your distance and need not move all at once) I would bet that a fighter could attack and move all throughout his turn attacking as many enemies as he can reach within his movement.  Moving from one enemy to the next dispatching them as he moves.

For those of us that like telling stories where the higher level guys are still fighting lower level monsters, if just in greater number, multiple attacks such as that opens that option up for me, while not precluding me from going with the other style of just having bigger things that attack, or even better a blend of the both of these things.  

For example lets say an orc takes about 2 dice of damage to ensure its death.  Now if I have 6 dice I can move kill one, move, kill another, move, kill a third, All on the way to the oger which requires 4 dice to kill, next round I can attack that oger kill it then move to and kill another orc.  Multiple attacks, especially the ones they proposed, offers up this kind of scene being able to exist.  A system where the weapon users only get the one attack per round removes this from being possible.

Even more it is slightly unfair in my mind that casters can attack multiple guys in a turn (which is what any of their area spells are by the way) and the weapon users must only attack the one. 
No multiple attacks is a reason that Minions in 4e are relegated to the Wizard other AoE specialist in 4e, rather than everyone getting a swing at them.  Most Rogue powers are single target, most Rangers can multitarget but they do too much damage to 'waste' on minions, most Paladin and Fighter attack powers are also single target, and better spent elsewhere.  So instead, the controller blows them up, and moves on, letting everpone else do the 3.x MMO thing of focus firing on one target, killing it, moving to the next.

Which, I'm sure everyone agrees as ganging up five against one, is very heroic!
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.

Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.

If you have a good parrallel proccessor (which brains do, if not neccicaraly for dice rolls), it doesn't slow anything down.

Still, it will never be faster.  At best you get parity.



Most humans can't focus on more than 1 thing on the conscious part of the brain... ambidextrous and women are more likely to do that, but most humans in general can't...most of our parallel process are already used on being used on functions such as sight, hearing, etc...

Even more it is slightly unfair in my mind that casters can attack multiple guys in a turn (which is what any of their area spells are by the way) and the weapon users must only attack the one. 



I think this is a desireable distinction. Big weapon dudes should be able to maul single targets more effectively than other characters, while blasters deal less damage per target but can easily multiply that up to many targets. It gives them different advantages, leading to different roles and a synergizing team.

On the other hand I do want specific routes to weapon based multiattack: twf, monk, and some form of multi-arrow path, at a minimum.
I just don't want stacking statics, or for the single target damage output to exceed big weapon. (Big weapon should probably be the highest sustained DPR, with maybe rogue as a rival. twf should be close but loses a little to balance the flexibility of being able to split attacks, the reliability of two swings, and the traditional defense boost option.)
Replacing MDD with multiattack, or in some other way making multiattack the default for high level weapon attackers is undesireable. For one, I don't like the fact it pulls DPR toward the average. If you're making 4 attacks at 50% hit rate for 1d8+5 each, your damage will tend to be around 19 very reliably, very rarely 0 or in the 30s. If you have 1 attack at 50% hit rate for 4d8+20 your damage will alternate between 0 and around 38. This makes the game dramatically swingier.

Swinginess is largely a matter of taste, but if things are too swingy it makes the game too much of a gamble (victory purely a matter of luck) but not swingy enough makes the game too much like chess (victory guaranteed if you chose correctly). That's one reason I prefer having multiattack as a build option (twf, monk, etc) rather than a basic design matter. It lets people chose how much swinginess they like. 

For example lets say an orc takes about 2 dice of damage to ensure its death.  Now if I have 6 dice I can move kill one, move, kill another, move, kill a third, All on the way to the oger which requires 4 dice to kill, next round I can attack that oger kill it then move to and kill another orc.  Multiple attacks, especially the ones they proposed 


Umm what exactly has been proposed?
I am thinking I want less confirmation rolls...  but 1 roll to hit which manages all targets works fine when I am launching a combo against 2.. .but having it govern all  I hit in my whirligig quisinart attack sequence of doom.. ( coming soon to theatres near you ) seems wierd*

*Maybe it could work just picturing a miss on every attack.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I agree with the problems mentioned above (slows things down, is a big advatage regarding crits etc) but another issue I have with them is it makes dialoged or cinematic combat very difficult.

you killed the fighter in the black leather armor's girlfriend, he looks enraged and charges toward you with all his weight behind the short sword, he misses... uh... now he takes his next three strikes before you can do anything... 

just sort of kills the whole equilibrium/300/sparticus/aeon flux feel I like to include in my games from time to time...  
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.

Even more it is slightly unfair in my mind that casters can attack multiple guys in a turn (which is what any of their area spells are by the way) and the weapon users must only attack the one.

That's more then balanced by the fact that they have poor armor, poor hit points, limited spells, and less damage (though they said they where toning down the martial classes). 

Admittedly, that didn't quite work out in some editions, but you don't want to take everything away from wizards.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


For example lets say an orc takes about 2 dice of damage to ensure its death.  Now if I have 6 dice I can move kill one, move, kill another, move, kill a third, All on the way to the oger which requires 4 dice to kill, next round I can attack that oger kill it then move to and kill another orc.  Multiple attacks, especially the ones they proposed 


Umm what exactly has been proposed?
I am thinking I want less confirmation rolls...  but 1 roll to hit which manages all targets works fine when I am launching a combo against 2.. .but having it govern all  I hit in my whirligig quisinart attack sequence of doom.. ( coming soon to theatres near you ) seems wierd
 



they hinted at a system where they replace MDD and the MDB with multiple weapon damage dice that can be split to multiple attacks.

So I'd have 5[W] damage available to me.  I could make 1 attack for 5[W].  I could make 1 attack for 3[W] and 1 for 2[W].  I could make 5 attacks for 1[W]

That is the type of system they have hinted at. 
Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.



That then becomes a tax for anyone in a game such as I have described.

For example lets say an orc takes about 2 dice of damage to ensure its death.  Now if I have 6 dice I can move kill one, move, kill another, move, kill a third, All on the way to the oger which requires 4 dice to kill, next round I can attack that oger kill it then move to and kill another orc.  Multiple attacks, especially the ones they proposed 


Umm what exactly has been proposed?
I am thinking I want less confirmation rolls...  but 1 roll to hit which manages all targets works fine when I am launching a combo against 2.. .but having it govern all  I hit in my whirligig quisinart attack sequence of doom.. ( coming soon to theatres near you ) seems wierd*

*Maybe it could work just picturing a miss on every attack.

In the pod cast Merls suggested something like...

Do 3|W| against 1 guy.  (Weapon damage dice replacing martial damage dice).
or spit up the dice like...
1|W| against 1 guy, 1|W| against a second guy, and trade 1|W| for an effect.

with the exception that you cannot do 1|W| + 1|W|+ 1|W| against the same guy.


Which basicly amounts to free cleave. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I agree with the problems mentioned above (slows things down, is a big advatage regarding crits etc) but another issue I have with them is it makes dialoged or cinematic combat very difficult.

you killed the fighter in the black leather armor's girlfriend, he looks enraged and charges toward you with all his weight behind the short sword, he misses... uh... now he takes his next three strikes before you can do anything... 

just sort of kills the whole equilibrium/300/sparticus/aeon flux feel I like to include in my games from time to time...  




ah like I said the system they have indicated would mean you could make that one attack (that would have done 5[W] damage) and not be forced to make multiple attacks.
Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.

That then becomes a tax for anyone in a game such as I have described.

No more then finger of death is a "tax" for wizard to fight single targets.


That said.  I'm for merl's free cleave, or rather more manuvers in general.  Fighters choices seemed a bit limited.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


For example lets say an orc takes about 2 dice of damage to ensure its death.  Now if I have 6 dice I can move kill one, move, kill another, move, kill a third, All on the way to the oger which requires 4 dice to kill, next round I can attack that oger kill it then move to and kill another orc.  Multiple attacks, especially the ones they proposed 


Umm what exactly has been proposed?
I am thinking I want less confirmation rolls...  but 1 roll to hit which manages all targets works fine when I am launching a combo against 2.. .but having it govern all  I hit in my whirligig quisinart attack sequence of doom.. ( coming soon to theatres near you ) seems wierd*

*Maybe it could work just picturing a miss on every attack.

In the pod cast Merls suggested something like...

Do 3|W| against 1 guy.  (Weapon damage dice replacing martial damage dice).
or spit up the dice like...
1|W| against 1 guy, 1|W| against a second guy, and trade 1|W| for an effect.

with the exception that you cannot do 1|W| + 1|W|+ 1|W| against the same guy.


Which basicly amounts to free cleave. 



Well i hate cleave they have right now.. so I might be thumbsupping this.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.

That then becomes a tax for anyone in a game such as I have described.

No more then finger of death is a "tax" for wizard to fight single targets.


That said.  I'm for merl's free cleave, or rather more manuvers in general.  Fighters choices seemed a bit limited.


I agree with the bold part.  More maneuvers at level one would be appreciated.
Multiple attacks rarely slow anything down.  Multiple damage rolls could maybe slow things down, but only if the damage changes drastically from one hit to the next.

They may rarely slow things down.

But they NEVER speed things up.



Actually, multiple attacks always slow things down.


That is not true.  Multiple attacks can certainly make a battle go faster, depends on the situation.  

Fighter killing two enemies in one round can certainly be faster than Fighter taking two rounds to kill two enemies.
Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.

That then becomes a tax for anyone in a game such as I have described.

No more then finger of death is a "tax" for wizard to fight single targets.


That said.  I'm for merl's free cleave, or rather more manuvers in general.  Fighters choices seemed a bit limited.




No literally if I dev a game that will have orcs as the enemies all the way to level 16 the fighter, if restricted to singular attacks outside of cleave, whirlwind, and volley, is taxed to take those maneuvers or be notably less effective. 

Basically that is what transfering to the other multiple attacks design does.  doesn't remove the option of doing 1 big attack, but allows for multiple attacks if that is what you want to do. 

literally by making it with multiple attacks worked in and assumed it opens up more game design options. 
I was considering effects like a flurry which damages any adjacent target so as you ran through the battle field every enemy you came adjacent to took damage (unless they had some sort of parry damage resistance). it might cost all your dice and only do [w] to each and every. This would allow the fighter to be the lawnmower.. to heck with missing
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Also to note. I'm pretty sure when they try out the hinted at system the no mod to damage thing might also get tried out.  Either that or they will add mod per die, but I can't see that happening as much.
It is slower, ALOT SLOWER!, you are rolling attack roll, confirming hit then damage calculation over and over and over again...instead of only once...it's multiplying the amount of time some's turn last



I keep my damage total added up so all I have to do is add 1d8 or whatever.  It's very quick.

Multiple attacks also break down from a simulationist point of view.

Just as hit points were never purely physical damage taken, I was always told that the attack roll represented the sum total of trying to hit someone for six seconds.

From that point of view, multiple attacks have never really made sense to me unless you were attacking different things.
Multiple attacks are in for a few reasons one of the main ones being attacking more than one thing in a turn.

Muiliple creatures is a decent reason...

But that can be solved by a good cleave or whirlwind manuver.  Giving you the same effect, while keeping the speed advantage against single targets.

That then becomes a tax for anyone in a game such as I have described.

No more then finger of death is a "tax" for wizard to fight single targets.


That said.  I'm for merl's free cleave, or rather more manuvers in general.  Fighters choices seemed a bit limited.

No literally if I dev a game that will have orcs as the enemies all the way to level 16 the fighter, if restricted to singular attacks outside of cleave, whirlwind, and volley, is taxed to take those maneuvers or be notably less effective. 

Basically that is what transfering to the other multiple attacks design does.  doesn't remove the option of doing 1 big attack, but allows for multiple attacks if that is what you want to do. 

literally by making it with multiple attacks worked in and assumed it opens up more game design options. 

Or if your on a campaign that takes place entierly along a narrow bridge, the fighter with cleave will be noticably less effective then one with push.

Or if you on a campaign fighting entirely fighting oozes, the fighter with trip will be noticably less effective.

And if you have a game where you fight only 1 monster at a time.  Wizard who prepares all AoE spells will be noticably less effective.

Or a 2-handed fighter is bad when facing all 1 hit point creatures...

Or a heavy skill campaign, a fighter is at a notiable loss to the rogue...

Yes, some classes/sub-classes/builds are good for some campaigns/situation, other things are good for other situations.  That's not a bad thing.  If you want an AoE fighter, then you put resources into an AoE fighter.  If you want a single target fighter, then you put resources into that.  If you want a tanky fighter, you grab a shield.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.




No literally if I dev a game that will have orcs as the enemies all the way to level 16 the fighter, if restricted to singular attacks outside of cleave, whirlwind, and volley, is taxed to take those maneuvers or be notably less effective. 

Basically that is what transfering to the other multiple attacks design does.  doesn't remove the option of doing 1 big attack, but allows for multiple attacks if that is what you want to do. 

literally by making it with multiple attacks worked in and assumed it opens up more game design options. 



So if you design your campaign to bias in favor of one fighting style over another, anyone who doesn't put any character options toward the favored fighting style will be at a disadvantage?
I agree. 
But by giving everyone multiattacks you take away from the ability for someone to distinguish themselves through multiattacking. I think the entire concept of sending large numbers of weaker enemies loses all of its value when you make it so no one is weak to that. By keeping it an optional manuever, then players can decide if they want to shore up that weakness or leave it (in favor of strengthening another area).

It's not a problem that fighters who play in campaigns that are heavy in masses of low power enemies will naturally gravitate toward multiattack solutions. Just as wizards in such campaign will naturally gravitate toward AoE powers. Similarly, in a campaign where there is rarely more than one enemy at a time, wizards will gravitate toward single target spells. It helps distinguish and differentiate the campaigns.