Dueling turn 4 Desecration Demons

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This post is more so people know what might happen in this situation as no one at the tourney had ever seen this happen before.

So at GP Singapore this weekend. In the final round of Day One before I would go on to play in Day Two we had an interesting situation.

My opponent went first and we both had desecration Demon in our opening hand (this is a sealed Grand Prix by the way). He plays his turn 4 Desecration Demon then I play mine.

On EACH combat phase BOTH triggers go off.

First the active player's (attacker), then the defender's.

Since the defender's triggers second it will resolve first. So if you are defending in this situation, you get more information than your opponent before making a choice. He must sac to tap the demon before you make your decision.

It was actually not that easy to deceide what to do during the match.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge

On EACH combat phase BOTH triggers go off.



Yes, both the triggers all trigger at the same time.


First the active player's (attacker), then the defender's.

Since the defender's triggers second it will resolve first. So if you are defending in this situation, you get more information than your opponent before making a choice. He must sac to tap the demon before you make your decision.



No, they both trigger at the same time.  The active player's triggers are placed on the stack first.  Then the non-active player's triggers are placed on the stack.  But the triggers all triggered at the same time.

_Magic: The Gathering_ Comprehensive Rules

These rules are effective as of October 1, 2012.

603. Handling Triggered Abilities

603.2b When a phase or step begins, all abilities that trigger "at the beginning of" that phase or step trigger.

603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.


The level 3 judge said that the active player's "triggers first" I'll take his ruling over random internet guy...
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
The level 3 judge said that the active player's "triggers first" I'll take his ruling over random internet guy...

well the Level 3 judge is technically wrong or perhaps he just casually misspoke or was misquoted
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
603.2b When a phase or step begins, all abilities that trigger “at the beginning of” that phase or step trigger.
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

This would occur simultaneously for both triggers as the combat phase started, however, the active player would put his trtigger on the stack first, it's a semantic difference, but a difference nonetheless

if you were to present this thread to the judge in question he would likely agree with the assessment here because it is based on what the rules actually say

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The level 3 judge said that the active player's "triggers first" I'll take his ruling over random internet guy...



That kind of attitude will not help you on these forums. But I digress.

It's more likely when the Judge said "triggers first" he meant "will be put on the stack first" - obviously they "trigger" at the same time, but it's the order in which they're put on the stack that matters. Everything else in your original post is pretty much correct. The defending player will have to make a choice first, and then the active player can use that information to make a decision. Nothing mqj said was inaccurate, either. Hardly just a "random internet guy"...

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

The level 3 judge said that the active player's "triggers first" I'll take his ruling over random internet guy...


That kind of attitude will not help you on these forums. But I digress.

Digress? Not by much: I had to restrain myself not to report this offensive comment.

The level 3 judge said that the active player's "triggers first" I'll take his ruling over random internet guy...



That kind of attitude will not help you on these forums. But I digress.

It's more likely when the Judge said "triggers first" he meant "will be put on the stack first" - obviously they "trigger" at the same time, but it's the order in which they're put on the stack that matters. Everything else in your original post is pretty much correct. The defending player will have to make a choice first, and then the active player can use that information to make a decision. Nothing mqj said was inaccurate, either. Hardly just a "random internet guy"...



I'm just telling you what happened at the GP. What the judge said, etc. It really doesn't matter as the word doesn't change the interaction in this case.

bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge